Need help in seeing clearly

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Anu18
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Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Fri May 22, 2020 5:28 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the “I” is the conditioning and habit of the mind and just a label given to this body, mind, feelings, memory, and emotions. In the reality, there is no ”Self”

What are you looking for at LU?
I can see that the separate “I” does not exist and it’s nothing more than a thought. However, I still feel that there’s something still holding on, and I need help to completely break through and realize it 100% once and for all that there is no “Me” in here.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Pointers and guidance to clearly see and help wherever I may be stuck in my habits, beliefs and conditioning that is preventing me from seeing the obvious.
May I please have Vivien Novak as my guide if possible if I do qualify to be guided.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I’ve had few mystical experiences in almost 25 years of seeking, meditation practices, and inquiry. But nothing tangible. Nothing in terms of a realization that there's no ”I” until recently. It's a very simple understanding that there's no ”Me” here. But something still feels incomplete.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Fri May 22, 2020 6:11 am

Hi Anu,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily.
If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?

It's a very simple understanding that there's no ”Me” here. But something still feels incomplete.
What is it that is missing?
What make you think that it's incomplete?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Fri May 22, 2020 8:30 pm

Hello Vivien,

Thank you so much for accepting my request and for guiding me.

Yes! I'll try my best to be very honest in my seeing and write from my own honest seeing and experience. I will post daily and if I need more time, I'll let you know.

Please feel free to be very straightforward and do whatever it requires to cut through the BS that I may be holding on to. It's been a very long time and I am exhausted.
Could you please tell me what are you really looking for?
The solid realization that there is no separate “Me” here who is running the show and living this life.
How would your life change if you find that?
If I am able to see this clearly that there’s no “Me” in here, I am hoping to be able to live from a place of neutrality where the life will still be lived and things will still happen but there will be no “Me” who will feel the need to stick to everything. A place of neutral being where everything is just felt and experienced but nothing is sticking.
What are you hoping for to change?
I believe that I only understand this in my head that there is no “I” and I hope that it changes to a solid GUT realization. The change of perception? The way this life is lived with a “Me” in here vs life living itself.
What do you hope that should happen?
I have this expectation of some clear shift or some sort of hallmark that will probably be the proof of my understanding that ok, “I” understood that “I” am not real, this is hilarious 😆
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?
If I am able to see through the illusion of a separate self then there will be no “Me” to claim anything and there will be only life living itself and no one to claim or a put a label to whatever is happening.
What is it that is missing?
That it’s not a sincere heartfelt realization. It’s still only in my head.
What make you think that it's incomplete?
The expectation that there should a proof of this realization. And I know, who’s realization and who is here to see the proof :)

I really appreciate your time and help Vivien!

Love,
Anu

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Fri May 22, 2020 8:53 pm

Sorry Vivien,

I forgot to add the most important part that confuses me in seeing clearly. I feel that the attention or the focus of attention goes after every thought arising and clinging to it until the “I” behind this attention realizes that the focus of attention went after the thought. So I feel as though this “Awareness” is “Me” that notices the focus of attention? That’s why I still feel that there’s a me in here who is aware of the movements of attention.

Thanks!
Anu

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Sat May 23, 2020 5:41 am

Hi Anu,
Thank you so much for accepting my request and for guiding me.
You are welcome :)
Please feel free to be very straightforward and do whatever it requires to cut through the BS that I may be holding on to. It's been a very long time and I am exhausted.
I’m quite straightforward in my replies. No BS is allowed :)

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
I am hoping to be able to live from a place of neutrality
But seeing through the self is not about ‘from living from a place of neutrality’.
What would live from any place, if there is no self having a live?
where the life will still be lived and things will still happen but there will be no “Me” who will feel the need to stick to everything.
Are you expecting that after seeing no-self, the self illusion will stop appearing? Why would it? There is ALREADY no self, and NEVER WAS, and yet the appearance of a self is there. This won’t change. The illusion won’t stop appearing. It will just be recognized for what it is, just a fictional character without any root in reality.
A place of neutral being where everything is just felt and experienced but nothing is sticking.
Do you expect that unpleasant sensations will be gone? That you won’t feel half of the human emotions (not feeling all the unpleasant ones)?

There is no such thing as ‘neutral being’ – your humanness won’t disappear (including all the wide range of emotions).

And who would feel neutrality if there is no one feeling anything? And who/what would experience if there is no I to experience in the first place?

Emotions like happiness, peace, anger, hatred are a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’, like abiding in a neutral state. It's not.
If I am able to see through the illusion of a separate self then there will be no “Me” to claim anything and there will be only life living itself and no one to claim or a put a label to whatever is happening.
There is ALREADY no me there, and yet there are claims and thoughts on behalf of a me. This won’t change. The thoughts of I/me/my/mine won’t stop appearing. Labelling is also won’t stop. Why would they?

And more importantly who has these desires of there being no more claiming and labelling?
Who desires neutrality?
I feel that the attention or the focus of attention goes after every thought arising and clinging to it until the “I” behind this attention realizes that the focus of attention went after the thought. So I feel as though this “Awareness” is “Me” that notices the focus of attention? That’s why I still feel that there’s a me in here who is aware of the movements of attention.
How do you know that awareness = me?
What is it giving this information?

What if this awareness is not what you think it is?
What if awareness IS the illusion of me?

Please ponder on these questions to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Sat May 23, 2020 5:49 pm

Hello Vivien,

I am extremely grateful for your time! I do realize the amount of time and effort you give in to help and guide.
I’m quite straightforward in my replies. No BS is allowed :)
Perfect!! There’s probably a lot in here :)
But seeing through the self is not about ‘from living from a place of neutrality’.
What would live from any place, if there is no self having a live?


Agreed :) when there is no “I” then who and what will be neutral

Are you expecting that after seeing no-self, the self illusion will stop appearing? Why would it? There is ALREADY no self, and NEVER WAS, and yet the appearance of a self is there. This won’t change. The illusion won’t stop appearing. It will just be recognized for what it is, just a fictional character without any root in reality.
I was at least hoping for the recognition that the “I” is the illusion. But who will recognize it? This is somehow making me sad and disappointed.
There is ALREADY no me there, and yet there are claims and thoughts on behalf of a me. This won’t change. The thoughts of I/me/my/mine won’t stop appearing. Labelling is also won’t stop. Why would they?
Then who and what was seeking for all these years and why? What’s the purpose of it all?
How do you know that awareness = me?
What is it giving this information?
I honestly don’t know but It feels like that’s me, it’s felt strongly as me, it’s always here, it follows and notices every physical and mental movements of this body and mind.
What is it giving this information?
Itself to itself? I don’t know, I’ll have to look into this more but when I try it seems like I am going in circles because I can’t find the answer. Is it just another thought, arising as “Me” and noticing all other movements? The thought of “Me” as this awareness, noticing other thoughts and movements? I need your help with this please.
What if this awareness is not what you think it is?
What if awareness IS the illusion of me?
I am very open to the possibility that this IS the illusion of me but what is it then that feels like “Me” it’s confusing.
For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?
Yes! Absolutely :)
Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
I read your comments a few times and there’s no resistance but I do feel disappointed and sad. What was this all about if there’s no end to the suffering from this illusion of “Me” then who was seeking and for what? What do all these enlightened people and the books about enlightenment talk about?
Do you feel ready to start the investigation?

Yes! 100% :)

Thank you!

Love,
Anu

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Sun May 24, 2020 4:31 am

Hi Anu,
V: Are you expecting that after seeing no-self, the self illusion will stop appearing? Why would it? There is ALREADY no self, and NEVER WAS, and yet the appearance of a self is there. This won’t change. The illusion won’t stop appearing. It will just be recognized for what it is, just a fictional character without any root in reality.
A: I was at least hoping for the recognition that the “I” is the illusion. But who will recognize it? This is somehow making me sad and disappointed.
Please read very carefully what I wrote above. You are misinterpreting my words. What I said is exactly what you were hoping for. That the self will be RECOGNIZED to be an illusion. But you dismiss what I wrote, since you hold the belief that in order to recognition to happen, there has to be a self, doing it. But this is a false assumption. There is no need for a self for recognition of it being just an illusion to happen. Recognition of being an illusion could happen, but without a recognizer.
What was this all about if there’s no end to the suffering from this illusion of “Me” then who was seeking and for what?
You are misinterpreting my comments again. I didn’t say anything about suffering whether it will stop or not. I only talked about emotions, and you’ve made a conclusion if the unpleasant emotions don’t stop then suffering must go on. But this is a false assumption.

The question is not about the presence or absence of suffering, but whether there is a sufferer at all! If there is someone who really suffers. Freedom lies in seeing that emotions don’t happen to anything, there is no one feeling them. Emotions are, feeler or sufferer isn’t. In the moment when this is seen, there is no suffering.

But just because the self is seen through, it doesn’t mean the all seeming suffering will automatically stop. Suffering is deeply rooted in all sorts of beliefs and ideas, and more importantly childhood experiences, traumas and conditionings. And these won’t disappear in a moment. Lots of further looking is needed for conditionings to gradually fall away.

Also, physiological problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.
Is it just another thought, arising as “Me” and noticing all other movements?
How do you know that thoughts arising AS me?
What makes thoughts into a ‘me’?
Are thoughts = me?
The thought of “Me” as this awareness, noticing other thoughts and movements?

So are you saying that the thought of ‘me’ is awareness?
That the word/thought ‘me’ = awareness?
And this thought is noticing other thoughts and movements?

How do you know all of this?

Are you taking the concept of awareness and ‘things appear in awareness’ or a ‘background awareness’, and “I am awareness’ and similar ideas what several teachers are talk about as baseline (as something true), and then trying to justify your experience based on these learned ideas?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Anu18
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Anu18 » Mon May 25, 2020 1:56 am

Hello Vivien,

Thank you for your response!

Please read very carefully what I wrote above. You are misinterpreting my words. What I said is exactly what you were hoping for. That the self will be RECOGNIZED to be an illusion. But you dismiss what I wrote, since you hold the belief that in order to recognition to happen, there has to be a self, doing it. But this is a false assumption. There is no need for a self for recognition of it being just an illusion to happen. Recognition of being an illusion could happen, but without a recognizer.
I agree, what you said is exactly what I was hoping for. This is a proof of my superficial seeing because I still have this “I” sneak up in every statement. I understand what you are pointing at but It’s not my experience yet :) and I know, who is here to experience? :)
Freedom lies in seeing that emotions don’t happen to anything, there is no one feeling them. Emotions are, feeler or sufferer isn’t. In the moment when this is seen, there is no suffering.
This is exactly what “I” am hoping for, and as I write this I realize that who is here to see it and who is hoping for the seeing to occur but again its very superficial :(
How do you know that thoughts arising AS me?
No, thoughts can’t be me, they are noticed.
What makes thoughts into a ‘me’?
Another thought?
Are thoughts = me?
NO, because they are noticed. But I don’t know who is noticing the thoughts arising?
How do you know that thoughts arising AS me?
Thoughts don’t arise as “ME” they are just thoughts arising but they are followed by more thoughts of me and mine and those are just labels but there’s no “Me” in the thoughts.
So are you saying that the thought of ‘me’ is awareness?
That the word/thought ‘me’ = awareness?
And this thought is noticing other thoughts and movements?
“No” thoughts cannot be awareness. Because awareness is aware of thoughts arising.
This is very clear that the thoughts can’t be me, I can notice when the thoughts arise.
How do you know all of this?
There’s a very strong sense of “Me” in here, that notices every movement of body and mind.

Are you taking the concept of awareness and ‘things appear in awareness’ or a ‘background awareness’, and “I am awareness’ and similar ideas what several teachers are talk about as baseline (as something true), and then trying to justify your experience based on these learned ideas?
I think so, and I am pretty sure this is where I am stuck, I still can’t let go of the idea or belief of awareness within which all things are appearing.

I am trying my best to be very sincere and honest, and I sincerely hope that I am not wasting your time :( it’s just that the belief in this “I” is so strong, it comes up in every thing.

Thanks again for your time!!

Love,
Anu

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Vivien
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Re: Need help in seeing clearly

Postby Vivien » Mon May 25, 2020 2:48 am

Hi Anu,

I would like to ask you to be careful with your replies. I mean try to describe your experience as precisely as you can. There are only your written words I can work with.
There’s a very strong sense of “Me” in here, that notices every movement of body and mind.
OK, let’s look into this.

Please describe me this ‘very strong sense of me in here, that notices everything’.
How is this ‘sense of me in here’ is experienced?
As a color? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Or is this a thought? Or an imagination?

And when you say ‘in here’ IN what exactly?
What is this sense of me inside of?
Where is its exact location?

How do you know that what you call a ‘sense of me’ is really a sense of a me/self?

If it’s a sense of me, then it means that there is a me which is being sensed. So how does this me is sensed? By which of the 5 senses?

Or is this sense some kind of container that holds the me in?


Please be very careful not to speculate about the answers. Don't go to philosophies, don't assume, don't think it through, don't create theories, but rather investigate your immediate experience as it is.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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