This I Needs To Go!

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
404page
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu May 21, 2020 9:28 am

Re: This I Needs To Go!

Postby 404page » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:43 am

Good morning/afternoon Stacy!
So sorry for addressing you with the wrong name. Of course, not that it actually matters!
That made me laugh :) I would actually like to be called all different names throughout the day by everyone, it might lessen the idea of the I :)
I do want you to find the body experience. When you find that it becomes a guide to truth in all kinds of things. Please look at that some more, particularly in the torso.

Another way to find that is to remember a time when you lied to someone you love. I have no need for the content. Once you find that, tell me what Sensations you find - again. mostly in the torso.
I struggled when I tried this before with the lying example, and it took me lots of concentrating on what I believe my worst lie to be, and even then I could only bring up a faint feeling in the stomach/torso area which could have been my imagination.

I think in my childhood and to a point, since in adulthood, it was so normal to lie and be lied to, I don't get much of a reaction thinking about it.

I have tried to think of other scenarios to bring up a feeling but nothing happens. However, I can remember during what were then traumatic experiences, of how that felt in the body. Finding out about a betrayal, for example, led to a feeling like being punched in the stomach, so strong I had to bend over and could barely breathe. It wasn't fleeting but was there in various intensities for months. But that was a long time ago now, and trying to get the feeling back isn't working.

I am pretty sure I do experience body feelings throughout the day - being given a job I don't want to do, or having to make a duty visit to someone I'd rather not see, for example, are probably things that come up regularly that might give me a sinking feeling in my stomach.

ETA: I have just tried again, this time by thinking of the word "loving" then switching to "hating". Now I can sense a difference, although quite faint. When I concentrate on the word "loving", I feel a kind of soft expansive feeling in the chest area. When I switch to "hating", awareness seems to drop to the solar plexus where it becomes small and harder, like a marble.

Is this type of sensation that I need to look at?

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: This I Needs To Go!

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:32 am

Yes, exactly.

Lying coincides with a tight, heavy. or contracted Sensation.

Truth coincides with a relaxed. light. or expansive feeling.

Sorry that was so much work. I'm not sure why, either, but you got it.

So let me ask, is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
404page
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu May 21, 2020 9:28 am

Re: This I Needs To Go!

Postby 404page » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:20 pm

Hello Stacy!
So let me ask, is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
I know the correct answer to this should be no, but the problem I have is when I look down, I see some forms and shapes that if I command to move (i.e. "Left foot, tap on the floor three times!") it does just that.

I can see that what I see looking back in a mirror might not be a me, as when I really look, all I see is a rectangular piece of glass with some patterns inside (that also respond to commands to move) but I am having trouble over these 3D things hanging below what is usually labeled a neck...I can accept the neck might not really be there as part of a me, because I don't see one, but I struggle with what these other things are if they aren't part of a me?

So I also get that scientifically these parts that move and follow mind commands are just swirling energy that looks and feels dense, making the shape of a me, but I don't feel as if that is it - there is something I am not getting :/

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: This I Needs To Go!

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:04 pm

Good morning, Violet ;)

Your answer is perfectly fine. It is only meant to let me know where you are.

This next exercise will make some differences in how we LOOK very clear:

Fruit Exercise

Have a piece of fruit handy, or something that you like to eat.

For the first couple of minutes imagine you are eating the fruit…..feel the sensations of chewing, the taste, the texture, the fragrance, hear the crunching sound that the chewing makes. Really enjoy the imaginary piece of fruit as much as you can.

Then for the next couple of minutes actually bite the fruit and see the difference.

Experience the fruit with curiosity and dive into the sensations of chewing, swallowing, the sounds and the taste. Really enjoy the experience of actually eating the piece of fruit.

Then for another minute or so describe the taste and smell in as much detail as possible.

Write about it here. What was the experience like?

After you have done this, tell me what you noticed when you compared these three experiences, writing a paragraph for each one:

1. Imaginary fruit

2. Real fruit

3. Description


We are still working on distinguishing Actual Experience (see list above in green) from stories. We especially want to be sure you sense the difference between the Actual Experience of Thought Arising and the story (or lie - check that gut feeling) of content of thought. One way to know when you're looking at content of thought is to ask yourself whether that information is available without anyone teaching it to you. Is it simply a quality that is there no matter what? Or not?

It's like Santa Claus. Someone had to teach you there was such a thing. And then, when you discovered there was no Santa Claus, you could never un-see that truth. Seeing no self will be like that.

It is also similar to those optical illusions, such as old woman/young woman and candlestick/faces and many others. Once you see it, it's always there, even if you may forget about it sometimes and see only one of them.

https://www.livescience.com/63645-optic ... woman.html

https://sites.google.com/site/animation ... k-illusion


There are many others. Some of them are quite complex and beautiful, but you get the idea. When you SEE, it will be much like that. You'll be looking at the world you always look at and seeing something you have never (or rarely?) seen before.

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
404page
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu May 21, 2020 9:28 am

Re: This I Needs To Go!

Postby 404page » Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:38 am

Hi Stacy!

Sorry about the delay.
1. Imaginary fruit
Well, this was kind of boring. I tried to tell myself it looked really delicious, all broken into segments (I had an orange) and ready to eat on the plate. I told myself and how much I was looking forward to putting a juicy piece in my mouth and feel myself chewing it. I tried to enjoy chewing it, but it really did not work, there was no substance.
2. Real fruit
The real fruit was delicious! It had just come out of the fridge and was perfect to eat on a hot day. I had it in my mouth, chewing and moving it around much longer than the imaginary one, and could feel the cool juice running down my throat - so really no comparison as far as enjoyment compared to the imaginary one.
3. Description
I am not sure what I am supposed to put here, so I will guess. The first experience involved mostly thinking, with some sensation as I chewed the "orange" and my teeth met, and also the sensation of being sat on a chair. But other than that there was nothing to see/smell/hear or touch, other than what was in my surroundings anyway.

The second experience of eating an actual orange involved all senses, I saw the fruit on the plate, touched it to put it in my mouth, smelt it, tasted the sweetness, etc. There was thinking involved with the second part because I was thinking about what I would write, but whereas the first part involved almost only thinking, the second part involved all the senses with very little thinking.

Am I on the right track?

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: This I Needs To Go!

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:14 pm

Good morning, Cindy ;)

Oh. you're pretty much on the right track.

Description is a 3rd way of doing the fruit experience, different from Imagining & from eating the Real Fruit. Then you're asked to compare all 3.

But that is fine. It seems that Imagining & Describing seemed the same to you, I sm guessing.

The point, of course, which you got, is how docent Thinking (Imagining & Describing) are from eating the Real Fruit. Seeing that there's no self is just as different. It's the Real Fruit.

When you felt merged with the bed. did you find any sense of self then? Has anything like that happened again?



Drink Exercise

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a 'feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?


Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
404page
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu May 21, 2020 9:28 am

Re: This I Needs To Go!

Postby 404page » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:18 pm

Good morning Stacy
Good morning, Cindy ;)
Lol :))
When you felt merged with the bed. did you find any sense of self then? Has anything like that happened again?
No...it would be great to produce it at will, but it has not. I have felt it before, a couple of times, once while listening to Tom Kenyon. I had forgotten about that, I will try to find the track.

The Drink Exercise Questions
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
I can't really answer this because as soon as I started reading the exercise, the choice was made. I began reading it and "coke" popped into my mind. I did the steps, but it was already a done deal.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
I counted but knew coke had won, so the numbers didn't really take the front seat, it was just going through the motions. But no, I did not choose that, it is just how it happened.
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
The best way to describe it is the answer just appeared from nowhere.
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
No, I can't say there was a chooser, although I could tell myself and believe I chose spontaneously.
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a 'feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?
I don't know, I always thought I did choose, but coke chose itself. (I probably should add I only had coke or water in the house, I don't drink tea or coffee, and alcohol isn't very appealing in the morning!) Maybe if I had several really tempting drinks to choose from, the experience of making a choice would have felt different.

This got me remembering about quitting smoking. I started smoking at a very young age, and after 15 years or so I decided to quit. I REALLY wanted to stop, I could see clearly it was doing me no favors, I read many "help to quit" books (pre-internet years) and used to ask everyone I met for advice, it was on my mind an awful lot. However, it took me many attempts and three years to finally stop, so I guess "I" actually had no say in the matter, or choice if I was going to smoke that day or not.

So is there no point in thinking I will cut out beer/sugar/cigs or whatever, because at the end of the day we have no say in it? Or if we do something criminal? So we have no choice in queuing at a till to pay for goods in a shop or sticking them inside our coat and walking out? I suppose I don't choose to queue to pay, I just do it, so perhaps the opposite is also true. And for sure no one chooses to become addicted to hard drugs, it just happens.

Thank you Stacy, I need to notice more where the choices come from.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: This I Needs To Go!

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:53 pm

Good afternoon/whatever,

All good. Very important to relax doing the exercises and relax into any no self experiences that arise.

I often offer this quote, "Enlightenment is an accident. Meditation makes us accident prone." Our direct pointing exercises are a form of meditation that make you very accident prone. :)

Yes, you want to be LOOKING, not "believing" about whether there is a "you" making something called "choices."
Maybe if I had several really tempting drinks to choose from, the experience of making a choice would have felt different.
Good. Let's test this. Please get some "really tempting drinks." Is that possible for you right now? Then do the whole exercise again. For that matter, notice when you are out purchasing drinks, too. What happens?

Very important to LOOK, not "think" or "believe." We want only Actual Experience, not content of thought. And we want you to notice the difference.


Actual or Direct Experience:

Seeing
Feeling (Sensation, body sensation, not emotion)
Hearing
Tasting
Touching
Thought Arising (but not the content of thought. Those are stories we made up.)



Loving!
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
404page
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu May 21, 2020 9:28 am

Re: This I Needs To Go!

Postby 404page » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:19 pm

Hi Stacy

So I have come into a cafe in the town, and asked the waiter what juices he has. I like them all! I have just finished drinking a fresh orange juice, a very enjoyable direct tasting experience:)

When choosing a juice, I noticed the same happening as when the cafe was chosen...choosing is happening, but I can not say there is an I making the choice.

I also noted this morning what happened this morning when “I” decided to go for a shower, make food, start working etc. These were all very automatic, before I would have said I chose to shower at 9 am, but I don’t think there was an I deciding after all. Deciding to shower just happened.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: This I Needs To Go!

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:49 pm

Hi!

Yes, it is very cool. And remember, this is what has been happening all along. Our stories of an "I" doing something called "choosing," just get in the way - and we thought these stories were so necessary - not!

Has your "merging with the bed" experience repeated? That sounds like seeing no self. Please report anything like that when it shows up.

Remember when you did the Apple Exercise? You had to imagine you were a baby? How is that now? I think it's on page 2 here. Can you SEE that "apple" is just a label?

What about the Thought Arising exercise we did next? You mentioned it was "quite hard." Is that easier now?

Now, what about this "I," this "self?" Is a "self" actually known? What do you SEE when you LOOK?

When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?

Pay attention to mental activity – to thoughts and images in the mind. Where are they arising? Are they inside something? Are they central to you, or are they peripheral? Do they leave any trace when they have gone?

There is a video about LOOKING in Resources. You might check those. And remind me, have you read or been reading "Gateless Gatecrashers," found in Books under Resources?


Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
404page
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu May 21, 2020 9:28 am

Re: This I Needs To Go!

Postby 404page » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:27 am

Good morning Stacy :)
Remember when you did the Apple Exercise? You had to imagine you were a baby? How is that now? I think it's on page 2 here. Can you SEE that "apple" is just a label?
Yesterday evening I could see that clearly, but this morning I seem to have slipped back into "Deborah" mode.
What about the Thought Arising exercise we did next? You mentioned it was "quite hard." Is that easier now?
I have a busy workday today but I am going to try to get back to doing these exercises again later today. I just wanted to give you a quick answer now incase I cannot get round to writing later today. Time allowing, I will go back to the beginning and do all the exercises again.
Now, what about this "I," this "self?" Is a "self" actually known? What do you SEE when you LOOK?
When I actually look, I cannot see one now. When I don't look, I go back to autopilot where the thoughts that appear in the head area are "me".
When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?
I will do this throughout the day.
Pay attention to mental activity – to thoughts and images in the mind. Where are they arising? Are they inside something? Are they central to you, or are they peripheral? Do they leave any trace when they have gone?
Ditto as above
There is a video about LOOKING in Resources. You might check those. And remind me, have you read or been reading "Gateless Gatecrashers," found in Books under Resources?
I will watch that later. I started reading the book when I signed up, but could not relate to the case studies very well as I was not very close to the edge myself. I think I am much closer now and will carry on with it. Since the weekend I have been getting glimpses of the truth, then seem to slip back.

Sorry, this isn't really answering the questions Stacy, there is quite a lot to go through here and I doubt I will be able to give proper answers till tomorrow. But I just wanted to let you know I am on it!

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: This I Needs To Go!

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:11 am

Thank you, Deborah. That's fine. There is no rush.
I think I am much closer now and will carry on with it. Since the weekend I have been getting glimpses of the truth, then seem to slip back.
Yes, you'll go back & forth. maybe for years Also, seeing will become a little more "normal" to you. Not now, you have plenty to do, but later, when you're finished here, i might recommend Adyashanti's book. "The End if Your World." And always Alan Watts recordings; both are on YouTube. Later. .BatGap (Buddha at the Gas Pump) interviews later, too.

I'll look forward to your next replies. You may be nearly ready for final questions, a traditional way to check your seeing here.

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
404page
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu May 21, 2020 9:28 am

Re: This I Needs To Go!

Postby 404page » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:55 pm

I am very nearly ready Stacy, I am sure. I have looked at the exercises we did before and when repeating them, or sometimes just reading them, spontaneously either laughing or bursting into tears, but whatever happens it doesn’t matter, both laughing and crying are the same. At the same time, I don’t intellectually understand why I am laughing or crying, it just happens.

I need a bit more time to process. I am afraid to try to describe the experience, and what I now see the me as, in case the thinking and pondering on what to write sends me straight back to “Deborah”.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: This I Needs To Go!

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:21 pm

Good. Stay with experiencing & rdply when ready.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience. (Be sure to answer all parts & give examples. )

6) Anything to add?



Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: This I Needs To Go!

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:39 pm

Good morning!

Just had the thought to mention that at those times when you slip back into *thinking* there is a separate self named Deborah, use any exercise that has particularly helped you to SEE. For me Headless Way is a good one. Or simply LOOK for this "self," you think you've "slipped back into." Can you see, hear, feel, taste or touch this "self?" There will be a Thought Arising, as you've said, but is the content of that thought "real?"

Explore Sense of Self

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different.

This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now I'd like you to explore this SENSE of self very, very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it

Keep the focus on sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense of self do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self made of? An image? A sound? A sensation? A smell? A taste? A thought?

As always, please quote and reply to each piece.


Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests