Started to question whether the observer is real.

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6404
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby Vivien » Sun May 24, 2020 4:09 am

Hi Karla,
At first it seems like there is I/Karla thinking but on closer look there are thoughts about me or with an “I”.
Nice. Please look at this again.

Is there a Karla thinking, or thinking ABOUT Karla is just happening?
[often times I am confused with how to proceed with the inquiry when I feel contractions/bodily sensations, should I just watch it or should I be focusing on anything else?].
If the sensations are that strong that constantly draw attention, then you can stay with them. You don’t have to do anything with them. Don’t try to manipulate or change them, just let them be.
But if they are not too intense, then let them run in the background while you continue with looking.
However, honestly I still believe that these thoughts are happening/arising within “internally” althought I can’t pinpoint where exactly does these thoughts occur. I believe this because I can’t hear other people’s thoughts, hence the assumption that these thoughts are happening “internally” and bounded within the confine of my body. :{]
Your reasoning is intellectual. You believe something you are thinking about.

Seeing through the self won’t give you magic powers of hearing others’ thoughts.
Seeing no self is about seeing that there is no self at all, neither in others nor in this body called me.
No hearer or thinker of thoughts at all. Thoughts happen, but no one is hearing them.
the assumption that these thoughts are happening “internally” and bounded within the confine of my body. :{]
OK, this is an assumption. So let’s check the validity of this thought. The way you can check if thoughts are telling the truth is by examining experience and noticing what is actually going on compare to what thoughts are telling.

Is the body a container where a person is contained inside?

Close your eyes, and try to find the ‘confine of the body’.
But be careful not fall into imagination, but rather EXPERIENCE by feeling the ‘confine of the body’.

So where is the confinement, where is the boundary?
Is there an experience of a container? Or there are only sensations happening?


Are there three types of sensations?
- One sensation for the container (body,
- and another sensation for the ‘internally” which is inside the first one, the container sensation,
- and a third one for the thinker, the self which is inside the second one, the ‘internally’ sensation?

Are there layers of sensations of being inside one another? Or all if these could only appear in imagination and thinking?


And now include thoughts.

Are thoughts appear INSIDE the sensation of ‘internally

HOW do you know without imagination that thoughts appear ‘internally’ or that they appear at any location at all?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6404
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby Vivien » Tue May 26, 2020 5:28 am

Hello Karla,

How is the looking going? Are you still with me?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
karlakarla
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 11:42 am

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby karlakarla » Thu May 28, 2020 5:30 pm

Hi Vivien,

Sorry for the late reply. Got a severe headache, but now it has passed.
Is there a Karla thinking, or thinking ABOUT Karla is just happening?
There are certainly thoughts about Karla or the "I"/"me"/"my"/"mine". I still can't find any Karla thinking. So far, whenever I look all I got were thoughts, sensations, and the noticing itself. I am looking for the "I" that is noticing/looking, but all I can find are sensations and thoughts. Usually whenerver this "sense" that there is an I/Karla doing the noticing came up, there were thoughts (opinion/commentary) about the sensations or sounds that have been noticed. I'm going to look at this again.

Is the body a container where a person is contained inside?
I don't know. Like the above answer, all that have been noticed are thoughts, sensations, and this "sense" of I doing the activity (noticing/reading/writing, etc.).
So where is the confinement, where is the boundary?
Is there an experience of a container? Or there are only sensations happening?
With the eyes close, nothing can be seen/touched/sensed/experienced to be the boundary where thoughts come and go. When there are bodily sensations, there are thoughts labelling where the tensions happen (belly/head/etc.), I tried to ignore the thoughts and focus on experiecing the sensation itself like the coffee/tea exercise. There are imaginations, these came with shocking and fearful thoughts. The image is literally me/the body with eyes closed and the position I'm in. This imagination thing really felt like awake dreaming.
Are there three types of sensations?
- One sensation for the container (body,
- and another sensation for the ‘internally” which is inside the first one, the container sensation,
- and a third one for the thinker, the self which is inside the second one, the ‘internally’ sensation?
Just sensations and thoughts labelling/sometimes not labelling but thoughts about other stuff.

Are there layers of sensations of being inside one another? Or all if these could only appear in imagination and thinking?
No. The are sensations and thoughts labelling (i.e "tension", "tingling", "itchy", "heartbeat", etc.) and where it happens (i.e. belly, temple, skin, etc.)
Are thoughts appear INSIDE the sensation of ‘internally

HOW do you know without imagination that thoughts appear ‘internally’ or that they appear at any location at all?
I don't know where/the location in which thoughts appear, but we can just notice them when they appear/dissappear.


Karla.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6404
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby Vivien » Fri May 29, 2020 7:40 am

Hi Karla,
There are certainly thoughts about Karla or the "I"/"me"/"my"/"mine". I still can't find any Karla thinking. So far, whenever I look all I got were thoughts, sensations, and the noticing itself. I am looking for the "I" that is noticing/looking, but all I can find are sensations and thoughts. Usually whenerver this "sense" that there is an I/Karla doing the noticing came up, there were thoughts (opinion/commentary) about the sensations or sounds that have been noticed. I'm going to look at this again.
Yes, please do. You did some nice observations here.
I tried to ignore the thoughts and focus on experiecing the sensation itself like the coffee/tea exercise. There are imaginations, these came with shocking and fearful thoughts.
Do you mean that fear came up as the result of seeing that it’s just an imagination?
Is this fear still present? Do you want to look at it?
The image is literally me/the body with eyes closed and the position I'm in. This imagination thing really felt like awake dreaming.
Excellent observations! We are literally dreaming with open eyes, we even call it day-dreaming. But it happens much more often then we think.
Like the above answer, all that have been noticed are thoughts, sensations, and this "sense" of I doing the activity (noticing/reading/writing, etc.).
OK, please notice throughout the day this this ‘sense of I doing the activity’ and then describe me as precisely as you can.

How the ‘I am the doer’ is sensed/felt exactly?
Find the feeling of sense of doership. Where does it feel in the body?
Does the sensation that seems to be the ‘sense of doership’ do anything?

Is this sensation the doer? Is this sensation the one that noticing what is happening? Is this sensation reading? Is this sensation writing?

Does the sensation of doership make anything happen?

And what about the thought “I am reading” – is this thought reading these letters off the screen?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
karlakarla
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 11:42 am

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby karlakarla » Sun May 31, 2020 12:55 am

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for your reply.
Do you mean that fear came up as the result of seeing that it’s just an imagination?
Yes, because there were lots of tensions, fast hearbeat and fearful thoughts about "loosing my sanity", "i'm going crazy", "this looking is going to damage my brain", "there really is no one", etc. that were felt after seeing that there’ve been imaginations/mental images.
Is this fear still present? Do you want to look at it?
No, it’s not present at this moment. However, I don’t expect it to be gone forever but it has been experienced as something that comes and goes. The first time I noticed this fear, the looking was "cut short"/done after these fearful thoughts kept coming up and kept creating these narratives. Later, I looked for this "I" that is fearful, didn't find anything other than the thoughts, the noticing, and some sharp tensions, so I ended up just staying with the tensions. That's the experience so far regarding the fear. Do you have any suggestions?
How the ‘I am the doer’ is sensed/felt exactly?
I’ve noticed that this “sense that I am doing all these activities” or the sense of doership appeared:
-As thoughts at the beginning/the middle of an action. For example, after wearing the headphone there is an immediate/automatic action of adjusting the sound’s volume, the thought “too loud” came after the action. This has been noticed in some other activities like when I just grabbed a drink next to me when I am writing.
-As sensations + thoughts before and after an action. For example, when I am thristy/hungry there are mouth/throat dryness or growling stomach and thoughts labelling the conditions and thoughts like “I need to eat”, “what should I eat”, etc.
-As imaginations/mental image. For example, when meditating there were literally mental images of me/my body sitting an assuming the position/posutre that I am in, there were also mental images (crazy how much it’s like watching a movie) + thoughts of “what I am going to do after this meditation”.

I’m not so sure about this one:
-As a “knowing” + thoughts that an activity is currently taking place. For example, when thinking take place while reading, there is a knowing that thinking/listening to the thoughts is currently taking place. I am not so sure about this because after some “looking” it could also be that there were just the activity itself + thoughts. Maybe I need some more looking/pointers/questions on this?
Find the feeling of sense of doership. Where does it feel in the body?
There were breathing, heartbeat, and other bodily sensations.
Does the sensation that seems to be the ‘sense of doership’ do anything?
No. If thoughts are ignored, breathing is just breathing, a heartbeat is just a heartbeat, a sensation is a sensation. While looking closely at the sensations, there were just a lot of stories about “what this sensation means”.

Why am I laughing right now?
Is this sensation the doer? Is this sensation the one that noticing what is happening? Is this sensation reading? Is this sensation writing?
No, the looking/noticing noticed the sensations (and thoughts, sounds, etc.). The tension in my belly/the breathing and the heartbeat could not be reading and writing or doing an activity.
Does the sensation of doership make anything happen?
And what about the thought “I am reading” – is this thought reading these letters off the screen?
No, how could it be! I noticed that even the many thoughts about “I need to workout” during a day could not get the workout done.


Karla.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6404
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby Vivien » Sun May 31, 2020 4:02 am

Hi Karla,
Yes, because there were lots of tensions, fast hearbeat and fearful thoughts about "loosing my sanity", "i'm going crazy", "this looking is going to damage my brain", "there really is no one", etc. that were felt after seeing that there’ve been imaginations/mental images.
You are not the only one thinking these kind of thoughts. I too had similar thoughts at some point.

But let’s look at this from a different perspective.

These thoughts are based on the belief that there is a self, ME, whom experiences and life is happening TO. And if I do this or that, then I might go crazy.

But, there is ALREADY no self, and never was! Never ever.

So, if the self is ALREADY not there, then it’s literally impossible to ‘loosing sanity’, by this investigation! Can you see this?
How could you go crazy, if there is ALREADY no you there?

If seeing no self meant becoming crazy, then you MUST ALREADY BE crazy! Since the self is ALREADY not there! Can you see the falsity of this logic?

Why would your craziness-level change just because it’s seen WHAT ALREADY IS (that the self is just an illusion)?

And how could the brain be damaged by this? Damaged by seeing the facts of reality, instead of deluding ourselves with beliefs?

Actually, if you think about it, the label ‘crazy’ could be more appropriate for us who believes that there is a separate entity inside the body, being cut off from the world, held inside by the skin.
No, it’s not present at this moment. However, I don’t expect it to be gone forever but it has been experienced as something that comes and goes. The first time I noticed this fear, the looking was "cut short"/done after these fearful thoughts kept coming up and kept creating these narratives. Later, I looked for this "I" that is fearful, didn't find anything other than the thoughts, the noticing, and some sharp tensions, so I ended up just staying with the tensions. That's the experience so far regarding the fear. Do you have any suggestions?
Yes. Fear is nothing more than a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. There is a belief, a story somewhere about pain or negative consequences to seeing the illusion of the self, like the story of ‘going crazy, losing my sanity, damaging my brain, etc”). And the fear tries to protect you from these supposed negative consequences. So let’s find out what this story is about and see if they are real threats or not.

You can investigate this fear. Examine it closely. Feel it. Don’t try to fix it or solve it, just sit with it.

You can ask the fear as if it were some kind of entity:

How do you know that investigating no-self, would mean ‘losing sanity, going insane and damaging the brain’?
And what needs to be protected from this story? What needs protection?
And from what exactly? From a fearful story?

Observe what visual thoughts and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.
If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and visual thoughts what is BEHIND the fear?

No. If thoughts are ignored, breathing is just breathing, a heartbeat is just a heartbeat, a sensation is a sensation. While looking closely at the sensations, there were just a lot of stories about “what this sensation means”.

Why am I laughing right now?
Probably because you’ve just seen how things actually are… compare to what you THINK how they are :)
You did a nice investigation, by the way :)

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
karlakarla
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 11:42 am

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby karlakarla » Sun May 31, 2020 1:30 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for your reply.
If seeing no self meant becoming crazy, then you MUST ALREADY BE crazy! Since the self is ALREADY not there! Can you see the falsity of this logic?
Yes, I can see how the logic is faulty. Sometimes when there are fixation in thinking or thoughts about a particular something the thoughts are often "saying" completely different things about one thing, meaning it doesn't seem to have "one voice", it seems kinda like a computer program when something is inputted in this program (i.e. something that has been noticed) then this computer kicks in and just gives out all possible "answers".
How do you know that investigating no-self, would mean ‘losing sanity, going insane and damaging the brain’?
Because I have read about other people's account of awakening and how some of them feel disoriented, demotivated, depressed, and some of them feel physical symptoms and conditions after such awakening, I think they call these things "the dark side of awakening" or "the dark night of the soul".
And what needs to be protected from this story? What needs protection?
The body (from getting physically sick) and the mental state (from going insane)
And from what exactly? From a fearful story?
Yes, from some fearful thoughts that appears to be a "spooky" narrative based on things I've read.
Observe what visual thoughts and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.
I can feel sharp tensions, fast heartbeats, and restricted breathing. A lot of mental images of me/this body feel so sick and my parents and friends just worried about the whole thing and don't know what to do. And there is also fear/stories about if such things happen, how to get through it, how do people around me react, will they understand, etc. There are thoughts about "there are no going back", "things/my life will be going downhill" if I continue looking/investigating.
If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and visual thoughts what is BEHIND the fear?
I'd say some beliefs about the "process of awakening" which has been shaped by the things I read. If I "look at the fear" and ignore the stories, all I can feel are some tensions and fast heartbeats.


Thank you so much Vivien.


Karla.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6404
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:49 am

Hi Karla,
Because I have read about other people's account of awakening and how some of them feel disoriented, demotivated, depressed, and some of them feel physical symptoms and conditions after such awakening, I think they call these things "the dark side of awakening" or "the dark night of the soul".
Oh yeh, the dark night of the soul. That’s sounds scary. But what soul? :)

This is nothing else than psychological issues that the person didn’t want to look at before. These could be more accessible after the self illusion is seen through, but many still don’t want to look at their childhood traumas, emotional issues, but rather trying to fight it, or run away or get rid of it. Instead seeing and feeling them for what they are.

I’ve heard about these stories too, but this not something to worry about. There are just unresolved psychological issues stemming from childhood. If this happens for someone, therapy can help.
The body (from getting physically sick) and the mental state (from going insane)
None of these valid concerns, unless you have a serious mental disorder, like schizophrenia with hallucinations, or clinical depression with suicidal thoughts. If someone mentally instable, then this inquiry could do more harm than good. But otherwise, it’s just a fearful story to scare yourself.

Would you say that you are mentally stable and you don’t have any serious mental illness?
I can feel sharp tensions, fast heartbeats, and restricted breathing. A lot of mental images of me/this body feel so sick and my parents and friends just worried about the whole thing and don't know what to do. And there is also fear/stories about if such things happen, how to get through it, how do people around me react, will they understand, etc. There are thoughts about "there are no going back", "things/my life will be going downhill" if I continue looking/investigating.
You have a pretty bad image about ‘awakening’. But it’s nothing like you described. Not at all. These are just fearful fantasies.

Can you notice, that fear and anxiety come with thoughts about future? What will happen if…?
Is fear here when you don’t think about the future, but about the present moment?
Or when you think about the past?

Do thoughts about future make future real?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
karlakarla
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 11:42 am

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby karlakarla » Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:19 am

Dear Vivien,

Thank you so much for your reply, it has helped calmed things down.
Oh yeh, the dark night of the soul. That’s sounds scary. But what soul? :)
What soul, exactly :)

Would you say that you are mentally stable and you don’t have any serious mental illness?
I'd say relatively stable without any serious mental illness or suicidal thoughts.

Can you notice, that fear and anxiety come with thoughts about future? What will happen if…?
Yes, this is very true.

Is fear here when you don’t think about the future, but about the present moment?
Or when you think about the past?
No. I guess the fearful/anxious thoughts are there and they're most always about the future or the past, but if I just experience the present moment outside of the thinking, there is nothing to justify the narrative of the fear.

Do thoughts about future make future real?
No. There really is no way of knowing exactly what will happen in the next hour, near or distant future.


Karla.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6404
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:03 am

Hi Karla,

I’m glad that my comments helped. :)

Do feel ready to continue with the investigation? If yes, then where are some questions to investigate.

Where is the me, the person in this very moment?
How does the me, the person experienced?
Can the person be experienced, or the person or is it purely in imagination?


Close eyes and investigate:
How is it known that there is a me without referring to thoughts?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
karlakarla
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 11:42 am

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby karlakarla » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:12 am

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for your reply.
Where is the me, the person in this very moment?
In thoughts, "providing" possible answers to your questions.
How does the me, the person experienced?
Through thoughts and mental images. I’ve noticed that sometimes there are just contractions in the body, like tightness and the assumption that this contraction is happening to “my body”. I’m still going to look at this. But if I look closely at it, what can be found is the contraction itself and to find the “I” is to refer or include the thoughts again.
Can the person be experienced, or the person or is it purely in imagination?
The person as an entity can’t be found and experienced, but there are thoughts about Karla/I/me/mine that can be noticed.
Close eyes and investigate:
How is it known that there is a me without referring to thoughts?
It can’t be known. For example, when lying down/sitting down with the eyes closed, what can be felt is the sensation itself, not exactly the whole body. I’m sorry if you’re confused with the last sentence, I find it hard to describe it.


Also, if you probably can notice that in some of my previous replys I often wrote “I can’t find anything/nothing other than…” or something along that line. Currently there are a lot fixation with these thoughts about “nothing”, “looking for the nothing”, etc. haha. It has created a seeking out of nothing. I guess we’ve found the seeker in thinking as thoughts.


Karla.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6404
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:41 am

Hi Karla,

V: Where is the me, the person in this very moment?
K: In thoughts, "providing" possible answers to your questions.
Let’s investigate this. Look at the thoughts and mental images of Karla.

Is there an actual, real person there? Is there a real Karla in thoughts? Or there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT a person?

It’s easy to come to the conclusion that of course that’s just thought. But really investigate this.
I’ve noticed that sometimes there are just contractions in the body, like tightness and the assumption that this contraction is happening to “my body”.
We often say ‘MY body’ – so what is it that owns the body?
And how do you know that the body is owned?
What is it that claims ‘MY body’?

You have clothes, right? But what is owning them?
What is that makes the clothes “mine”?
What is that claims the clothes to be “MY clothes”?

Does the seeming ‘voice in the head’, the commentator, owns the clothes?
Do thoughts own the clothes?
Does the thought ‘mine’ owns the clothes?
Does word/thought Klara owns the clothes?
Does the label on clothes own the clothes?

Does the label ‘my’ owns the body?
Does the label/word/thought Klara owns the body?
It can’t be known. For example, when lying down/sitting down with the eyes closed, what can be felt is the sensation itself, not exactly the whole body.
Exactly!

Do you see that what we call body, is just a label on sensations?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
karlakarla
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 11:42 am

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby karlakarla » Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:32 am

Hi Vivien,

I'm sorry for the late reply.
Is there an actual, real person there? Is there a real Karla in thoughts? Or there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT a person?
No, there are only thoughts about a person. There is nothing/no one in the thought, only the thought itself that can be noticed.
We often say ‘MY body’ – so what is it that owns the body?
Couldn't find any "owner" of the sensation/body except. It's just "there".
And how do you know that the body is owned?
I don't know. With the eyes closed and not referencing any thoughts, it's clear that there is only the sensation itself that can be experienced. But with the eyes open and seeing the body in the mirror, there are a lot of emotions about the body, when looking at these emotions is esentially physical sensations like something moving.
What is it that claims ‘MY body’?
The thoughts like "my body", "I need to workout", etc.
You have clothes, right? But what is owning them?
There’s nothing that can be noticed to be the owner of the clothes except the thoughts “mine”, “my clothes”, “her clothes”, etc. and emotions. There are memories about buying the clothes and wearing them in previous occasions.
What is that makes the clothes “mine”?
The label “mine”, the mental images, the emotions and memories that arise when looking at or wearing the clothes
What is that claims the clothes to be “MY clothes”?
The thoughts and/or emotions.
Does the seeming ‘voice in the head’, the commentator, owns the clothes?
Do thoughts own the clothes?
Does the thought ‘mine’ owns the clothes?
Does word/thought Klara owns the clothes?
Does the label on clothes own the clothes?
No. When it comes to ownership there are thoughts about “I”, “mine”, “my”, etc. and emotions. Emotions have been noticed more and more as a moving sensation in the body that appear and dissappear. When thoughts are ignored and these sensations have passed, there is no “one” that claims ownership of these clothes.

As thoughts/labels can’t command action and have been noticed to take credits of actions (“I did this”, “I work out”, etc.), they also can’t own things too.
Does the label ‘my’ owns the body?
Does the label/word/thought Klara owns the body?
No. Like the above, when thoughts are ignored, there is no “one” that claims ownership of these clothes.

Do you see that what we call body, is just a label on sensations?
Yes, it’s been noticed more and more.

Karla

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6404
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:46 am

Hi Karla,
You did a nice investigation :)
But with the eyes open and seeing the body in the mirror, there are a lot of emotions about the body, when looking at these emotions is esentially physical sensations like something moving.
And what are those emotions about the body belong TO?

Where is Karla, whom those emotions are supposedly belong to?
Inside the body? Is Karla, the feeler of emotions, in the chest? Or is she in the head? Or in the hands? Or in the lower back? Or at the top of the head?
Where is Karla, the feeler?


Focus on the sensations of the hands.

Are the hands felt by Karla? Or a me? Or a self?
Or the ‘voice in the head’ is feeling the hands?
What is feeling the hands?

Where is the sensory information (sensations) are received?
Where are the sensations of the hands felt FROM?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
karlakarla
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 11:42 am

Re: Started to question whether the observer is real.

Postby karlakarla » Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:33 am

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for your reply.
Where is Karla, whom those emotions are supposedly belong to?
I couldn't find this Karla, there are only thoughts about Karla and "I", "my", etc. When these thoughts are ignored there is only the noticing of thoughts, sensations, etc. When there are a question/thought: "who listen to these thoughts", there is only the noticing, kind of indeferent to the question or any thoughts and sensations. I'm going to look at this "who's noticing" again.
Inside the body? Is Karla, the feeler of emotions, in the chest? Or is she in the head? Or in the hands? Or in the lower back? Or at the top of the head?
This "Karla" as the feeler of emotions are thoughts like "my belly hurts". With the eyes closed things that are noticed are just "there".

For example, last night I noticed the music that I listened to from my phone, the sound of the fan, and the ringing in my ear happened at the same time and without refering to thoughts, eyesight, or memories these sounds is just "there", only when the thoughts started to labeling "that's the fan", "my ears are ringing", the distinction between inside of outside arose as thoughts and mental image. In experience, I couldn't exactly say whether "the ears hear and feel all of these sounds", what could be experienced are ultimately the sound itself. I couldn't find the feeler or noticer of these sounds in the sound itself or any parts of the body. In fact, with the eyes closed the notion of specific body parts or the whole body is not there, it's just experiences arises and no boundaries can be exactly felt/seen/heard/touch/etc.

Where is Karla, the feeler?
Are the hands felt by Karla? Or a me? Or a self?
Couldn't find a Karla/ a me/ a self who's the feeler. Althought I'm going to look at this "who's feeling and noticing" again. But, these "who's feeling and noticing?" is also just a thought and when it arises, there is an indeference towards it. Previously, there would be immediate movements of thoughts/thinking after such questions but lately there is just momentary silence until the another thought or bodily sensations are noticed. Do you think this is a "trap" to not looking for this "self"?

Or the ‘voice in the head’ is feeling the hands?
No, both are noticed.
What is feeling the hands?
There is a feeling of tingling/pulsating. If thoughts are ignored, there is just the tingling or the sensation of pulsation itself.
Where is the sensory information (sensations) are received?
Where are the sensations of the hands felt FROM?
I don't know. These sensations are just noticed/felt.


Karla.


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests