Releasing the illusion

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Sunshine6
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Releasing the illusion

Postby Sunshine6 » Sat May 16, 2020 9:33 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I think I understand that there is no completely free standing individual that exists independently and separately. The only existence is in the present moment — everything else is a made up story, a projection, with emotions that arise from that story/projection that then feeds the story in a self-filling loop.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’m looking for help to step out of that damn loop. I think I have an intellectual understanding but not a direct sustained knowing. I’ve had glimpses but I still feel like ‘Jenny’ most of the time.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect someone who has seen through the illusion to help me see where I’m still deluded and to point the way through into a full knowingness so then I can fully drop my misperception & misunderstanding of the nature of reality. A loop-less reality sustained in the present is what I hope for.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Went full Christian at age 10-11, studied, was ‘saved’ etc but the concept of sin never made sense to me.
At around 18-19 I found Sanaya Roman’s books and eventually did the Awakening Your Lightbody” courses & some further courses. Went to Naropa University because I wanted to study psychology and meditation and went on to get an MA in Body-Centered Psychotherapy there. Had 2 kids, moved to Virginia & intensely studied Mahayana Buddhism and helped run a small Sangha— until the teacher ‘found’ Jesus! Got divorced & Studied Byron Katie’s work, as well as The Sedona Method— have done a couple of courses recently through the Sedona Method.
Probably more things but that’s what is presenting right now!

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Vivien
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Re: Releasing the illusion

Postby Vivien » Sat May 16, 2020 11:31 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.
The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily.
If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Sunshine6
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Re: Releasing the illusion

Postby Sunshine6 » Wed May 20, 2020 10:59 pm

Dear Vivien,
Thank you so much for guiding me.

To answer your questions:

Yes,
I will write only from my experience as I see it, what feels true, with whole honesty as much as I can in the moment, and to post daily. I will let you know if I cannot post.

V: Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?

J: “I” am searching for ultimate Truth— and to feel rooted in the wholeness of what is instead of the illusion of “me”.
Not sure how life would change— a guess is there would be less identification with anything except the moment.

V:What are you hoping for to change?

J: The hope is for more love, joy and peace as a lived experience, less attachment to “me” moment to moment with all of ”me’s” concerns, anxieties, irritations, doubts, fears.

V: What do you hope that should happen?

J: My audacious hope is to share this experience to help others wake up and to let more love and peace move through “me”.

V:Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?

J: An image of what it would feel like: an endless flowing of present living awareness that moves through life’s ups & downs without sticking to anything— with an increased capacity for Love & Wisdom & Peace & Joy

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Vivien
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Re: Releasing the illusion

Postby Vivien » Thu May 21, 2020 3:29 am

Hi Sunshine6,

What name would you like me to call you?

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.

So here is the link to a video again how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
“I” am searching for ultimate Truth— and to feel rooted in the wholeness of what is instead of the illusion of “me”.
You are talking as if you had two selves, as if there were two of you.

1. The illusion of me
2. The other one that is living in the illusion of me (1), which could somehow could get rid of the other me, and could live and be rooted in wholeness

But BOTH of them are the SAME illusion of me.
There is no other you that could get rid of the ‘illusion of me’, and be rooted in wholeness itself.

“Being rooted in wholes” is part of the story of me, who could somehow could be better and feel better. It’s the same illusionary story about ME.

Seeing through the self illusion means to see that there is NO you at all. Not one, not two, but NONE. Life is just happening and it doesn’t happen to anything or anyone.
J: The hope is for more love, joy and peace as a lived experience, less attachment to “me” moment to moment with all of ”me’s” concerns, anxieties, irritations, doubts, fears.
These are desires are about the self, who wants to feel better.

But what is there is no you at all, whom these or any emotions could happen to? What if there are only emotions floating by, but without being anchored to a self?

Love, joy, peace are states and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, love, joy, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

Fortunately, seeing no self doesn’t depend on any emotion or any state. States and emotions has nothing to do with it.
It’s not about getting rid of half of the emotions, and having only the peasant ones. It’s not about not having half of the human emotions. It’s not about stop being a human and not feeling the unpleasant sensations any more. Not at all. Rather it’s about feeling them all freely.
with an increased capacity for Love & Wisdom & Peace & Joy
But what would have an increased capacity for love, wisdom, peace and joy?
There is no self period.
Only a self could be improved to have more love, wisdom, peace and joy.

If you expect to have these emotions, then you could be disappointed. Since you are looking for what you THINK you can gain by seeing no self.

But it’s not what you think. It’s never how we think it is.
It’s not about gaining anything.
It’s about seeing that the one who could gain is simply not there, and never was. It was always just an imagination.
let more love and peace move through “me”.
Again, there should be a self in which love or peace could move through.
But there is no you, no self. There is literally nothing that these emotions could ‘move through’.
These are all desires on behalf of the separate self, who wants to feel better.
And I understand this. I hear you. All of us wants to feel good.

But seeing through the self is not about gaining better and more pleasant experiences for yourself.
It’s not about escaping half of the human emotions.
It’s about seeing that ‘yourself’ or ‘myself’ is simply missing from the picture.
It’s simply not there.

Emotions are, both pleasant and unpleasant, but there is no self feeling them. No self to which these could happen to.

Please ponder on these questions to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.

Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Sunshine6
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Re: Releasing the illusion

Postby Sunshine6 » Thu May 21, 2020 3:08 pm

Hello Vivien—

Please call me Jenny. :)

WOW! I had to read your response several times and the experience that came up upon reading felt slightly different each time.

The first time through felt like my regular thought flow had to abruptly *stop* because what you were saying was so direct, there was a lack of understanding, like I had just crashed into something, then another time through brought curiosity (what did I just crash into?!) then another reading laughter bubbled up....!
Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
I am realizing I have operated my whole life through comparison! And expectations! And fears mulling around barely visible but very present! (Tears flowing now—). But when I really looked at the fear— where is it?! And who is here to feel all of this?!
The feelings are happening through this gaggle of cells but I can not locate a ‘me’ really— in my head? Heart area? It’s like a constant movement that can not be pinned down into exactness. It’s like trying to pin down a curl of smoke. Yet somehow the smoke keeps appearing...? Also— how can I be present if I am busy in an illusion of comparison? Also, what the heck am I comparing?
Hm.

This really blew my mind:
You are talking as if you had two selves, as if there were two of you.

1. The illusion of me
2. The other one that is living in the illusion of me (1), which could somehow could get rid of the other me, and could live and be rooted in wholeness

But BOTH of them are the SAME illusion of me.
There is no other you that could get rid of the ‘illusion of me’, and be rooted in wholeness itself.

“Being rooted in wholes” is part of the story of me, who could somehow could be better and feel better. It’s the same illusionary story about ME.
I had to read this several times to understand. Especially that BOTH are the SAME illusion of me. Seems it is all story— that there is an illusion of ‘shoulds’ & ‘should nots’ that obscure now what is.

Love, joy, peace are states and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.
Being trained as a psychotherapist, seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything or anyone is... wow! No words— Feels so true....how could they belong to anyone? The moment they are done they become a memory— but it seems memories get stuck because they are identified with and that’s why people seek therapy? Because they are misidentified as a particular “I” that is attached to those particular stories that cause suffering?

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, love, joy, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

Yes— I’m starting to see it’s not a separate state— how could it be?

But seeing through the self is not about gaining better and more pleasant experiences for yourself.
It’s not about escaping half of the human emotions.
It’s about seeing that ‘yourself’ or ‘myself’ is simply missing from the picture.
It’s simply not there.

Emotions are, both pleasant and unpleasant, but there is no self feeling them. No self to which these could happen to.
I am still pondering this— that self that was hoping for more pleasant experiences is disappointed— yet somehow that self doesn’t exist, but the feeling of disappointment is being felt?
So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?
Yes— we can agree. I will do my best to notice expectations when they arise & let them go.

I am ready to start the investigation.

Thank you so much for your time, attention and guidance!
With deep appreciation,
Jenny

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Vivien
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Re: Releasing the illusion

Postby Vivien » Fri May 22, 2020 4:47 am

Hi Jenny,
I am realizing I have operated my whole life through comparison! And expectations!
Nice observations. We all do this. Comparison might be hardwired into the human brain.
And fears mulling around barely visible but very present! (Tears flowing now—). But when I really looked at the fear— where is it?! And who is here to feel all of this?!
Very good. And excellent questions! If stronger fear or resistance come up during our investigation, please let me know, and we can have a look.
The feelings are happening through this gaggle of cells but I can not locate a ‘me’ really— in my head? Heart area? It’s like a constant movement that can not be pinned down into exactness. It’s like trying to pin down a curl of smoke. Yet somehow the smoke keeps appearing...? Also— how can I be present if I am busy in an illusion of comparison? Also, what the heck am I comparing?
You are already quite good in this inquiry.

I would like to add one important thing. When you ask a question, like “Where is this me, is it in the head?” – then be careful not to just think it through and make a logical conclusion that it cannot be in the head since there is only flesh, blood and bone there (or something similar). Rather, investigate the immediate experience. In this case by FEELING it. So you shift your attention to the experience itself, and you search through your whole head by feeling each sections and sensations that are present, and asking: “is this sensation the me?” and then check if the sensation = me.
I had to read this several times to understand. Especially that BOTH are the SAME illusion of me. Seems it is all story— that there is an illusion of ‘shoulds’ & ‘should nots’ that obscure now what is.
Yes. Good that you’ve noticed it.
Being trained as a psychotherapist, seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything or anyone is... wow! No words— Feels so true....how could they belong to anyone? The moment they are done they become a memory— but it seems memories get stuck because they are identified with and that’s why people seek therapy? Because they are misidentified as a particular “I” that is attached to those particular stories that cause suffering?
I used to be a psychologist, so I have my own theory on therapies, why people seek it, how effective it could be… etc. In short, I see therapy as a self-improvement, and that’s all. Tring to improve and fix the seemingly broken self, in order to feel better. But it has severe limitations. Since it’s misses the most important point, that the self that is supposed to be broken and needs to be fixed or made better, is simply not there. It’s like trying to fix the imagined monster under the bed. But, I don’t find therapy useless of course. Just limited. But most people are not ready to investigate no-self, so therapy has its own place and value. And even after seeing through the self-illusion therapy can be useful.

But this is all just my thoughts on it. You will have your own theories about it after you’ve seen through the self-illusion.
I am still pondering this— that self that was hoping for more pleasant experiences is disappointed— yet somehow that self doesn’t exist, but the feeling of disappointment is being felt?
What if disappointment is not a feeling/sensation? But only a concept? When this concept is taken to be real, and not seen only as an idea, it triggers some unpleasant sensations, what we then label as ‘disappointment’.

And what if this sensation is not being felt? What if there is only a sensation, but no feeler of it?

Or is there a feeler? – check it out for yourself.

Put your attention to the sensations in your hands.

Where does the sensation is felt from?
Where is the exact location that the sensation is known/experienced from?

What is it that could feel the sensations?
Is there a feeler at all? Or there is only a sensation happening?


Search through the whole body for the feeler. Literally search for it, as if you were searching for your lost keys.

Do this several times throughout day, or at any time when it seems that “I feel this or that”.

Let me know what you find.

Vivien

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Sunshine6
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Re: Illusion?

Postby Sunshine6 » Fri May 22, 2020 6:25 pm

Dear Vivien,

Thank you so very much for your response and guidance.

As I explore experience many thoughts have been coming and going...
Curiosities, random stories, images...From where?
When you ask a question, like “Where is this me, is it in the head?” – then be careful not to just think it through and make a logical conclusion that it cannot be in the head since there is only flesh, blood and bone there (or something similar). Rather, investigate the immediate experience. In this case by FEELING it. So you shift your attention to the experience itself, and you search through your whole head by feeling each sections and sensations that are present, and asking: “is this sensation the me?” and then check if the sensation = me.
Ok--*experiencing* is the key. The thoughts experienced do seem to be centered in this head, in a certain clump of cells?--but I cannot locate the source-- it's like playing hide-and-go-seek with myself-- but then who is hiding and who is seeking!? Weird.. confusion...Is some awareness chasing a thought? and is it really in my head-- exploring this while fingers tap on keyboard... Birds chirping outside, sun peeking out from clouds, white cat sitting "over there"
...can a thought be pushed out of my head like a cloud moving through a wall? Thoughts aren't contained in my head. Again-- like smoke-- or mist-- there but not there-- coming and going-- BUT FROM WHERE???
Ok-- feeling a contraction that I can't figure this out-- ha. Nothing to figure out-- insatiable curiosity...
An endless stream of thoughts, sensations, of experiencing.
Experiencing does not stop-- not even in sleep. What keeps this body alive while sleeping?! This body could also expire in sleep-- no control over that.

Breathing in breathing out...feeling disoriented. Is there a separate Vivien really reading this stream of consciousness?! and why?! Letters appearing on this screen as fingers seem to know where to tap to make the letters clump together in some intelligible way. What are these letters? Agreed upon marks that communicate labels... "I" comes in-- "I" want to do this right-- what does that even look like? It looks like "Vivien's" approval. Approval of what and who? Ugh-- Approval junkie-- related to comparison.
Comparison lets me know 'my place' in the scheme of things. Illusion of Worthy or unworthy-- of what? Love. How do I know I am worthy of Love? Wait-- what "I"? Surely this collection of cells would not have survived without my mother's love... but she died a long time ago. More thoughts... did she exist? Not like she or I thought she did...but Love exists-- it just is-- no worthiness necessary... Woooooow..... no "self-improvement" needed! :):):)

A bit later...Back to experiencing... Feeling icy contraction in my chest again (is that what I use to label as fear?) and an exhale and a moan leave the mouth. This mouth. Deep breath in, deep breath out.

This process is like giving birth-- to something already there-- like the baby is already inside...and we aren't really in charge of that birthing process-- it takes on its own momentum then a baby appears-- we are not in control of if that baby is dead or alive. Mysteries.

I am understanding that "I" am not in charge-- but If there is not an "I" who is in charge how is it that it seems there can be a directive quality, meaning a directing of an intention? Like an answering of questions-- do the questions answer themselves through this point of awareness?

Speaking of awareness-- back to that. ..... butt on cushion, feet slightly cold, hands slightly feel cool, mouth slightly pursed, now mouth muscles relaxing, aware of sound of my daughter breathing, birdies chirping....

And if thoughts and feelings do not exist in and of themselves, and they are unlocatable and there is no one to think/feel them-- WHAT IS????!!!!!! What is this existence?? We ALL EXIST TOGETHER-- All sensations and sounds and things and thoughts and...
What if disappointment is not a feeling/sensation? But only a concept? When this concept is taken to be real, and not seen only as an idea, it triggers some unpleasant sensations, what we then label as ‘disappointment’.

And what if this sensation is not being felt? What if there is only a sensation, but no feeler of it?

Or is there a feeler? – check it out for yourself.
Having trouble in this moment differentiating self from feeling from thought from concept-- they all seem undifferentiatable, if that's a word--

Put your attention to the sensations in your hands.

Where does the sensation is felt from?
Where is the exact location that the sensation is known/experienced from?

What is it that could feel the sensations?
Is there a feeler at all? Or there is only a sensation happening?

Search through the whole body for the feeler. Literally search for it, as if you were searching for your lost keys.

Do this several times throughout day, or at any time when it seems that “I feel this or that”.

Let me know what you find.

Vivien
Uhhhh-- It is all feeling connected so that there is not a parsing it out-- like one big resonance. I don't have a lot of words-- all one continuousness of ? just awareness?
Ok-- going to try to focus on this-- there is not an exact location that sensations are experienced from-- although it all seems near/around this body-- breathing in breathing out...looking at my daughter-- there is not a knowing things from her perspective but there is a witnessing of her that feels undifferentiated from awareness... does that make sense? Who am I asking? Who is asking? Who is asking who is being asked...daughter exists as another point of awareness of sensation and thoughts...awareness back to Love...who is it that brings this awareness back to love? and Love is always existing...Existence is always existing.... but where? Everywhere always it seems...Everything simultaneously always...?

With deep gratitude,
Thank you Vivien

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Re: Releasing the illusion

Postby Vivien » Sat May 23, 2020 5:07 am

Hi Jenny,

You are thinking a lot, dear Jenny :) you have several ideas/beliefs about no-self, probably what you’ve learned from others. And you take these beliefs at face value, without investigating their validity.

This inquiry is about investigating our thoughts and beliefs.
So you have to shift your focus on questioning your thoughts and assumptions.
The thoughts experienced do seem to be centered in this head, in a certain clump of cells?-
The first part is looking at the experience “it seem to be centered in the head” but then you immediately turn to thinking and fantasizing about ‘certain clump of cells”

Do you EXPERIENCE yourself to be a ‘certain clump of cells’?
Or you are just imagining it?
Again-- like smoke-- or mist-- there but not there-- coming and going-- BUT FROM WHERE???
Does it matter? No. We are not trying to figure out HOW things are, or WHY are they in a certain way.
We are only ever noticing what is actually ARE. But not how, or way.

Only just the raw facts of reality.
No thinking is needed.
You can put aside your intellect.
You are focusing way too much on your thoughts, instead of noticing what is going on in the simplicity of experience.
Experiencing does not stop-- not even in sleep. What keeps this body alive while sleeping?! This body could also expire in sleep-- no control over that.
Intellectualization. Do you see that you are not investigating experience, but rather THINKING, and trying to figure out by more thinking of why and how?
Breathing in breathing out...feeling disoriented. Is there a separate Vivien really reading this stream of consciousness?! and why?! Letters appearing on this screen as fingers seem to know where to tap to make the letters clump together in some intelligible way. What are these letters? Agreed upon marks that communicate labels... "I" comes in-- "I" want to do this right-- what does that even look like? It looks like "Vivien's" approval. Approval of what and who? Ugh-- Approval junkie-- related to comparison.
More thinking.
Comparison lets me know 'my place' in the scheme of things. Illusion of Worthy or unworthy-- of what? Love. How do I know I am worthy of Love? Wait-- what "I"? S
More thinking and conceptualizing. Seeing no self has nothing to do with love. Love is just a concept labelling some pleasant sensations. Being worthy of love is just more concepts about a conceptual self.

You have to take off your psychotherapist hat – that won’t help here, it’s actually in the way.

Don’t try to analyse anything. Don’t just play with concepts of worthiness or love. These are just thinking. It’s useless here. It’s in the way.

Reality is much much simpler.
This is very simple.
But it making it into a complicated web of ideas, into a big story.
Surely this collection of cells would not have survived without my mother's love... but she died a long time ago. More thoughts... did she exist? Not like she or I thought she did...but Love exists-- it just is-- no worthiness necessary... Woooooow..... no "self-improvement" needed! :):):)
You might not be happy for what I’m going to say, but this is just a fantasy in fantasy-land. Like dreaming with open eyes. Actually, we (humans) dream with open eyes! We imagine all sorts of things with open eyes, which are not happening here now, and we don’t even see it that we are dreaming/imagining. What you just wrote is just a fantasy-dream, while the simplicity of reality what is here, right now is completely missed, ignored.

Your focus is on a dream-story, and not on what is happening in this very moment.

If you shift your focus to the immediacy of experience here now, you can see that this is just dreaming/imagination with open eyes. It’s in a fantasy land what is not happening here now.
This process is like giving birth-- to something already there-- like the baby is already inside...and we aren't really in charge of that birthing process-- it takes on its own momentum then a baby appears-- we are not in control of if that baby is dead or alive. Mysteries.
Here you got into another dream/imagination, another story.
I am understanding that "I" am not in charge-- but If there is not an "I" who is in charge how is it that it seems there can be a directive quality, meaning a directing of an intention? Like an answering of questions-- do the questions answer themselves through this point of awareness?
More thinking, speculating, trying to figure this out intellectually.
Having trouble in this moment differentiating self from feeling from thought from concept-- they all seem undifferentiatable,
It’s differentiable. But since you take your thoughts/imaginations as something real, without zooming out from the thought-story, you believe that the story is real, as if it were happening, here now.
And if thoughts and feelings do not exist in and of themselves, and they are unlocatable and there is no one to think/feel them-- WHAT IS????!!!!!! What is this existence?? We ALL EXIST TOGETHER--
Uhhhh-- It is all feeling connected so that there is not a parsing it out-- like one big resonance. I don't have a lot of words-- all one continuousness of ? just awareness?
This is a HUGE belief. A popular spiritual concept. ‘we are all one’, ‘we are all the one and same consciousness/awareness’.

This is a fairy tale, believed by many. Another dream by open eyes.

You are making all sorts of conclusions based on ideas and concepts you’ve learned from others.
Seeing no self cannot be learned. Cannot be believed. It can only be noticed in this very moment.
Ok-- going to try to focus on this-- there is not an exact location that sensations are experienced from-- although it all seems near/around this body-- breathing in breathing out...looking at my daughter-- there is not a knowing things from her perspective but there is a witnessing of her that feels undifferentiated from awareness... does that make sense?
First, you did a look, and saw that there is no location where sensations are experience form.
But then you quickly jumped to intellectualization, and you filtered the simply noticing of no location through your beliefs and ideas, and you made it into a story of perspectives, witnessing, awareness, etc.
daughter exists as another point of awareness of sensation and thoughts...
Another speculation, thinking. You are philosophizing, speculation, imagining, guessing…. ALL of these just thinking.
awareness back to Love...who is it that brings this awareness back to love? and Love is always existing...Existence is always existing.... but where? Everywhere always it seems...Everything simultaneously always...?
More thinking and dreaming.

So, let’s do an experiment. Today, pay very close attention when dreaming/imagining is on. And in the moment when you realize that it’s just an imagination going on, stop for a moment, and notice what is ACTUALLY happening.

For example, you might have an inner dialog with your boss, or child or friend, which is a fantasy in this very moment, since it’s not actually happening. When you notice that you are in dream-land, stop, and check if the dream characters and the dream scenery is actually happening here now, or it’s just imagined.

Or when you realize that you were thinking about being worthy of love, and being in the womb or your mother, or whatever, then STOP. And check, if the dream is actually happening here now, or it’s just a pure fantasy.

So watch out for these dreams and stories throughout the day.
And every time you catch yourself dreaming/imagining, check what is actually going on.

So how many times in a day the dream story is on?
And how is reality compared to the imagined story?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Sunshine6
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Re: Releasing the illusion

Postby Sunshine6 » Sat May 23, 2020 6:42 pm

Dear Vivien,
Do you EXPERIENCE yourself to be a ‘certain clump of cells’?
Or you are just imagining it?
Definitely imagining.
Intellectualization. Do you see that you are not investigating experience, but rather THINKING, and trying to figure out by more thinking of why and how?
Reading this there is a tension in my chest and throat area-- and thoughts come in about how I'm not doing this investigation correctly. Breathing. Birds chirping. Warm air. Headache. Tears wet on cheeks.-- I want this so badly-- Trying to locate the I that is feeling all of this-- looking-- looking--not finding, yet still feeling...
Only just the raw facts of reality.
No thinking is needed.
You can put aside your intellect.
You are focusing way too much on your thoughts, instead of noticing what is going on in the simplicity of experience.
Intellectualization. Do you see that you are not investigating experience, but rather THINKING, and trying to figure out by more thinking of why and how?
Ok--I can't stop thinking... thoughts keep arising--how do I put aside my intellect? Seems there is confusion about the difference between investigating and thinking.
So how many times in a day the dream story is on?
And how is reality compared to the imagined story?
Dream stories happen quite frequently, as in constantly-- Surprise! (haha)
Reality feels much different, more immediate, bright, open, sensation-based-- real, here, now. Dream stories not real.

Thank you for your time Vivien.
Jenny

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Vivien
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Re: Releasing the illusion

Postby Vivien » Sun May 24, 2020 3:43 am

Hi Jenny,
Ok--I can't stop thinking... thoughts keep arising--how do I put aside my intellect?
When I say don’t think about the questions, I don’t mean to stop thinking. That’s impossible. I don’t as you anything impossible :)

In order to be able to stop thinking, first, you have to be the thinker of thoughts. But are you?

But going back to your comment.

It’s not about stopping thinking altogether. No. It’s NOT FOCUSING on the thoughts that are arising. Rather SHIFTING your attention to the immediacy of experience.

Look at an object, like a cup.
And as you look at the cup and EXPERIENCE it by SEEING, do you see that thoughts come and go?

Thoughts might ‘talk’ about the cup being seen, or about something totally unrelated.

But, experience/seeing happens REGARDLESS of the presence of thoughts. Do you see this?
Is there any effort in seeing (meaning experiencing) the cup in front of you?
Or seeing happens effortlessly regardless of the presence of thoughts?


Now take the cup into your hands.
Now, experiencing the cup happens not just be seeing it, but by feeling it.
Notice the thoughts that come up that might talk about how the cup look like, how it feels, or might a story come up about the cup.

But while all these thoughts happen, the experiencing of the cup never stops!
It’s constantly seen and felt.

And you have two options.

You can either listen to the thoughts stories about the cup, or you can SHIFT your ATTENTION to experiencing, seeing and feeling it.

When you focus on the thoughts ABOUT the cup, the experience of the cup is in the background hardly noticed.
But if you shift the focus on experiencing, then thoughts go to the background.

And you just ignore the thoughts in the background by not giving attention to them, since your focus is on seeing and feeling and not on thinking.

Do you see where I am getting at?

So when I say that you don’t need your intellect, it just simply means that you don’t have to turn to thinking and thinking about the self, creating stories and speculations about it, rather you shift your focus on EXPERIENCE the self, just as you can experience the cup by seeing, feeling, etc.
Trying to locate the I that is feeling all of this-- looking-- looking--not finding, yet still feeling...
This whole inquiry is about looking and looking and not finding. :) that’s normal and that's how should be.
Dream stories happen quite frequently, as in constantly-- Surprise! (haha)
Reality feels much different, more immediate, bright, open, sensation-based-- real, here, now. Dream stories not real.
Exactly! Nice observations.
yet still feeling...
What is it that is being felt? Feelings/sensations or an I, a person is being felt?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Sunshine6
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Re: Releasing the illusion

Postby Sunshine6 » Sun May 24, 2020 9:11 pm

Dear Vivien,
Thank you for your presence and questions and pointing.

Every time I read your responses there is a different experience.
(Yes— that’s a story! :))
When I say don’t think about the questions, I don’t mean to stop thinking. That’s impossible. I don’t as you anything impossible :)
Thank goodness!! :)
In order to be able to stop thinking, first, you have to be the thinker of thoughts. But are you?
Um no— the thoughts keep coming like water over a non-existent bridge...a stream...the water seems less murky tho’. (Story)
Look at an object, like a cup.
And as you look at the cup and EXPERIENCE it by SEEING, do you see that thoughts come and go?
Yes— random comings & goings...
But, experience/seeing happens REGARDLESS of the presence of thoughts. Do you see this?
Is there any effort in seeing (meaning experiencing) the cup in front of you?
Or seeing happens effortlessly regardless of the presence of thoughts?
Experiencing the cup is actually effortless. Totally effortless—!
When you focus on the thoughts ABOUT the cup, the experience of the cup is in the background hardly noticed.
But if you shift the focus on experiencing, then thoughts go to the background.

And you just ignore the thoughts in the background by not giving attention to them, since your focus is on seeing and feeling and not on thinking.

Do you see where I am getting at?
Yes—yes— kinda like adjusting the focus of binoculars
What is it that is being felt? Feelings/sensations or an I, a person is being felt?
Holy shit—purely sensations— no I needed— no commentary or assessment or evaluation necessary— & not only that, those things get in the way of what just is right there. Yes.

Tiny story?
Last night I couldn’t sleep and kept switching focus back to sensations & away from random storytelling over & over.
At first the stories became background and my mind wanted to label every sensation, then slowly that also dropped away & there was just breathing & shifting & sweatiness & coolness...

That last sentence you wrote is a pure beauty-nugget-wisdom-bomb... I keep reading it....
What is it that is being felt? Feelings/sensations or an I, a person is being felt?
Thank you so much—
Warmly,
Jenny

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Vivien
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Re: Releasing the illusion

Postby Vivien » Mon May 25, 2020 1:24 am

Hi Jenny,
V: What is it that is being felt? Feelings/sensations or an I, a person is being felt?
J: Holy shit—purely sensations— no I needed— no commentary or assessment or evaluation necessary— & not only that, those things get in the way of what just is right there. Yes.
Nice observations :)

We are going to start to investigate thoughts. Seeing thoughts clearly is essential part of the inquiry.

It is very important that you never think or ponder on the questions. Rather you actually have to look what you can see in your immediate experience before any thought interpretation.

Please always be thorough with looking. Look repeatedly several times before replying.

Please sit, doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch thoughts coming and going.

Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Sunshine6
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Re: Releasing the illusion

Postby Sunshine6 » Mon May 25, 2020 4:02 am

Vivien,

Thank you for your responses— I look forward to them!
Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
The thought “Here I am” ....Space— I can’t pin down anywhere— like smoke appearing from nowhere in particular.

In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
. I tried to hold onto a thought, “Follow this thought”, but eventually it seemed to just dissipate back into space— although the same thought “I’m thirsty” has occurred a few times in the last few minutes, following a sensation of tackiness/thirst on my tongue...but it was not a singular recurring thought— still evaporated...
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?
No— checking again— no, not definitively. (Dropping the urge to ponder —)

Thank you,
Jenny

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Vivien
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Re: Releasing the illusion

Postby Vivien » Mon May 25, 2020 4:19 am

Hi Jenny,

Now, try an experiment.

Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?

Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?

What is making thoughts to appear? Are you making it?

Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Sunshine6
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Re: Releasing the illusion

Postby Sunshine6 » Mon May 25, 2020 4:43 am

Vivien—
Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?
Create a thought— hm— That is different than setting an intention— i can’t make/create a thought — there are lots of associations that pop up— but that is not creating a thought.

Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?
Yes— like the magician pulling an endless scarf out of a hat....except they keep disappearing—
What is making thoughts to appear? Are you making it?
There is nothing to make them appear—they seem to just somehow appear—
Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?
That’s an easy no...

Thank you—
Jenny


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