Trying to get it

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nobody5
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Re: Trying to get it

Postby nobody5 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:06 pm

This is a bit challenging for me..

Of course my first reply would be "yes, it's me deciding"..
But I'm trying to live a different mind.

I'm trying to concentrate on a single thing.
For example: should I have rice or pasta? It's me deciding what to have? Or it's (as you say) happening?
And, if so, based on what?

I'm trying to reflect on that.

My analysis found that that's a feeling, in the gut, or wherever, that likes one or the other. Then, the decision "I'll have rice" comes out, based on that feeling.

It seems that there's no someone else..
But this feeling is very subtle and vanishing.
The associated sensation is of being challenged, a slight sensation of "fear". And at the same time, a sensation of freedom and simple clarity.
After a while, I get somehow light headed.
And at the end it doesn't matter what I'll have.

Particularly, I see that I can't stay a long time in that state without getting light headed

I should reflect, meditate on that.
I'll just send you this note, which is a draft of my present thoughts.

As I feel these sensations I feel like I'm close to get it.. I don't know

Bofi
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Re: Trying to get it

Postby Bofi » Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:53 am

My analysis found that that's a feeling, in the gut, or wherever, that likes one or the other. Then, the decision "I'll have rice" comes out, based on that feeling.
Right. That sound like happening, doesn’t it?

I'll just send you this note, which is a draft of my present thoughts.
Yes, thank you for this. We can work with that.

So - you said it yourself, these are your thoughts. Please make yourself two different drinks and place them on a table in front of you. Now spontaneously take one of them.

Look very closely at this decision. Use the direct experience to answer my next questions and don’t interpret what shows up.

Do you feel an “I” that made the decision? How does it feel like? Where is it?
Can you hear it? Taste it? Smell it? How does it look like?

If you can’t find it - is it really there or just a story like Santa Claus?

Particularly, I see that I can't stay a long time in that state without getting light headed
Different states come and go. We’re not interested in reaching or maintaining a certain state, we look if there’s an “I” that experiences said state or if the state is just experienced.

Sometimes the thought “I” isn’t there, right? But experience still happens. There’s still awareness.
So this thought “I” isn’t experiencing anything - there’s experience of it.


Back to the exercise you did before: did you find the “I”? Is it a feeling? A particular taste? Does it have a colour?

Ask yourself: if it is experienced, can it really be that which experiences? Sometimes it’s there and sometimes not - do you sometimes disappear and sometimes your there? Like a feeling? “Oh, yesterday I was more there than today?” That would be funny, right? :)

Can you see where seeing happens from? Can you see ‘seeing’? No, but it still happens. Look around - things are changing but the seeing stays the same.
if the path in front of you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s

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nobody5
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Re: Trying to get it

Postby nobody5 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:46 am

Sorry for the delay. These concepts are difficult to grasp. Sometimes I need a little time to get familiar and let new ideas sediment.

Your messages are great.

The exercise you asked for is exactly what I myself were reflecting on, trying to go to a simple case study and decode the mind activity on these "active" actions like decisions.
(I'm generally quite undecided, so the exercise is even more difficult :-) :-) )

It looks like the choice is happening with no I involved, but it's a totally different way of thinking, and I have to concentrate very strongly to feel it for just a minute, and then it goes away and I start again thinking as usual.

It shouldn't be like that. If that is the reality, the feeling of "happening" instead of someone who decides should be present all the time, and at the moment it's not..
I have to exercise it, I think, what should I do about that?

Many thanks

(P.S. Regarding the "state" I mentioned: I'm not searching for it, I just say that the "no I" idea makes me feel differently, and after a while it turns into a light headed feeling.
Maybe that's because unconsciously I start concentrating on the feeling and not on the raw truth, could it be?)

Bofi
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Re: Trying to get it

Postby Bofi » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:19 am

These concepts are difficult to grasp. Sometimes I need a little time to get familiar and let new ideas sediment.
I’m not here to give you new concepts to think about. Each question is an invitation to look at what’s here right now.
Your cup is already overflowing with concepts and ideas - we’re emptying it in this process, looking at the different beliefs and checking if they’re true.
And yes, that can be challenging at times. Sit back and watch. Breathe... it calms the body down and makes it easier to focus on the inquiry.

it's a totally different way of thinking, and I have to concentrate very strongly to feel it for just a minute, and then it goes away and I start again thinking as usual
So the belief is that that particular feeling is “it” and the other feelings are.. wrong?

Let’s look at that, is there something as right and wrong?
Can you see a right tree? A wrong tree? What about waves? Birds? Colours? Tastes? Feelings?

Without thought, would there be right and wrong? No.. it’s an idea. A concept. 🙂

It shouldn't be like that.
Why not? Because it does not fit the picture that thought has of the world.

Feelings come and go... and that’s just happening. Nobody doing that.
if the path in front of you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s

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nobody5
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Re: Trying to get it

Postby nobody5 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:57 pm

So the belief is that that particular feeling is “it” and the other feelings are.. wrong?
Well.. aren't we discussing about the wrong notion of self..?
So thinking as if there were one isn't wrong?

Of course, I'm talking at a conceptual level.. to me, there exist only what I sincerely see and feel.
In this sense, thoughts are all right or, let's say, just are.

I just meant that I'm aware of that for a little time during the day.
I wonder if it's just a matter of reflecting, or should I set a "daily routine" to reflect more on the subject

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nobody5
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Re: Trying to get it

Postby nobody5 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:14 pm

When I say "wrong", I mean that if I see the red color, I could fantasize and say it's blue.. But as I see that it's red, I couldn't name it blue any more... it shouldn't require any effort

Instead, if after looking at the no-self reality of action I get back to my usual mind pattern, it means or that the realisation is not deep/real, or that the mind patterns are strong enough to bring my sight back to the usual view...
For this reason I wonder if I should exercise more somehow

Bofi
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Re: Trying to get it

Postby Bofi » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:10 am

We aren’t looking for right and wrong, we’re looking at what is real. At what exists and what doesn’t.
Please define in your own words, what does it mean to exist?

What is the evidence that a separate self exists?
Thoughts exist, feelings exist and seeing colours exists.
Does a separate self exist?
if the path in front of you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s

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nobody5
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Re: Trying to get it

Postby nobody5 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:39 am

Sorry for the delay..
Sometimes I have the sensation that we iterate the question and that I should just meditate more on the thing.
Could you confirm that you still believe that we can make it..?

For me, of course I want to go on, maybe I just need a few days and an exercise to run and test on my mind.

--
Back to your words, to exist for me it means that I can experience it with my senses. I don't know whether this is applicable to the realm of the mind, like if an angel manifested onmy mind. But even in that case it would be an experience, not a thought (I believe that something we don't see could exist, even if I didn't have experience about).
I would say that what exist is something that I can experience with my six senses, and in any case the "I" doesn't fit into this definition.

What do you mean by a separate self?

Please let me know if it's ok for you to get in touch every day as said, but to let sometimes pass two or three days to reflect
Thank you so much :-)

Bofi
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Re: Trying to get it

Postby Bofi » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:38 pm

Now I must apologise that it took so long to reply.
Sometimes I have the sensation that we iterate the question and that I should just meditate more on the thing.
Take all the time you need. Relaxed and clear minded is better than stressed out. Nothing to prove here, just some investigating. :)
What do you mean by a separate self?
Let’s cut that into two parts. Seperate and self.
“Self” is the “I” that you think you are. “Seperate” means this feeling and the thoughts that tell you “this right here is me and life is happening out there TO me” - “I’m here, the rest is out there”
if the path in front of you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s

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nobody5
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Re: Trying to get it

Postby nobody5 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:20 pm

Thank you very much
It seems that I took you literally on relaxing ;-), but for sure I'll keep in touch regularly.
I just ask.. Is there any exercise that I can do daily, to get deeper into seeing that this (f***ing, I would say 😁) "separate self" is an illusion?

At the same time, I must admit that the concept does slowly get more familiar.. Sometimes it's just the time that you pass with an idea, add the various contexts you test it with, that allows to know it better.

Anyway, I have to say that I got refreshed and ready for any analysis challenge you would promote.

Thanks again, and ever, for your patience and dedication to this cause (or as you prefer to call it). Its value is immeasurable 🙏🏻, and I never take it as granted.
Really thank you very much 🙏🏻, this is gold coming from the sky for me.

Bofi
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun May 03, 2020 4:52 pm

Re: Trying to get it

Postby Bofi » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:46 pm

Glad you enjoy it. 🙂

Okay, let’s go deeper. Let’s look at what’s really here.
Tell me: is there sound? Colours? Sensations? Taste? A sense of presence? A self that is seperate from the rest?

Simply look and describe what you see in your experience. If you see it clearly, you can describe it.
if the path in front of you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s

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nobody5
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Re: Trying to get it

Postby nobody5 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:50 pm

Right now..
There's the sound of cicadas outside, in the garden. There are voices, traffic outside.
Tiredness. Who is tired? I try to separate the tiredness from the sense of self.
My body hurts. There is the feeling of this subtle pain from exercise. Is someone experiencing this?
As I start thinking that there's no "experiencer" I feel energy tinglings, and a sense of greater freedom in the mind.
Back to pain. I must stay with this feeling. I try not to let my mind start thinking that "I" am feeling this.. But to stick to what is experience.

I think I should meditate a lot like this, listening to my body sensations, and not letting the mind wander.

It takes time, and lots of concentration. I stay like this, with my lightly hurting leg bent, and with that chirping outside, listening to what it is.

Bofi
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun May 03, 2020 4:52 pm

Re: Trying to get it

Postby Bofi » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:51 am

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
between the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.


Until your next reply, please look at life trough this lense. Not just during meditation, but whilst doing normal everyday stuff aswell.
Then tell me what you notice. :)
if the path in front of you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s

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nobody5
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Re: Trying to get it

Postby nobody5 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:47 pm

Of course I went searching for the sutra..
And I'm glad that this is one source for explanation

It's easier for the experiences than for the thoughts..
I'll start easy. But as it seems, it could take a long time.
How long did it take for you?

Bofi
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun May 03, 2020 4:52 pm

Re: Trying to get it

Postby Bofi » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:48 am

So what you noticed is that “it’s easier for experiences than for thoughts”.

Good, we can work with that. Look again and tell me, what is it that says “it’s easier to look at experience than it is to look at thoughts”?
Are thoughts an experience too?
And what’s this thing that’s telling you “it’ll take a long time”? Who says that?

Why is this accepted as truth? Is it true?

You’ll need to answer every one of these questions for us to go further. Take your time. :)
if the path in front of you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s


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