LFG

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Luchana
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:52 pm

Hi John,
I do not know what is meant with this question.
When you say
And I do not know if something can exist outside of my awareness of it
I asked does this statement match the immediate experience? In other words - can you find something called “my awareness?” in your imediate, direct experience?

If yes, where exactly?

No, I do not find the direct actual experience of awareness as I find the direct actual experience of eating an apple or seeing the sky.
Good. Could the experience of eating an apple be just an experience of a taste?
And the experience of seeing the sky just an experience of an image?
To be honest Luchana I find myself confused, as you just asked in your previous message "Is there a thought without perceiving?" referring directly to what I would call awareness.
Confusion is a good sign. This means that some beliefs are shaken.
Is there a thought without perceiving in other words are they separate?
You really have to look.
The question doesn't suggest awareness.
The questions point where to look.
And now in these questions seem to suggest that this awareness is itself just a concept.
Look
Can you find something called awareness?
Out of the thought about awareness?

Awareness could be a useful tool in the beginning, but when you don’t need this tool you can easily leave it.
Look with the eyes of a new born baby. The baby doesn’t know that this is a sky or that is an apple. It doesn’t know that it needs awareness in order to experience reality for what it is.
Yes, all that is known is experience, perception. Though it is known! Right? There is experiencing, there is perceiving. Is there experience without perceiving it? Can they be separated?

Ok.
Is there a separate perceiver somewhere perceiving the experience?
Or there is just an experience.

What about the knowing? Is there known without knowing? There cannot be.
Who or what needs knowing?
I will keep looking. Though am a bit confused.
I understand, it is all good. Keep looking.


Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:35 am

Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:14 am

Hello Luchana,
*Is there a thought without perceiving in other words are they separate?*
No there is no thought without perceiving. They are one. Is there a difference between this perceiving you mention and when I speak about awareness?

This is the roadblock to me. That all the experience is not separate from its perceiving. Without the perceiving there is no experience. That is why I affirm the presence of awareness.
*Can you find something called awareness? Out of the thought about awareness?*
No I can't.
*Is there a separate perceiver somewhere perceiving the experience? Or there is just an experience.*
There is no separate perceiver. In fact there is not anything outside of experience. Everywhere that we look there is experience. The looking itself is experience.
*Who or what needs knowing?*
Knowing seems to be needed in order for something to be known.

Thank you

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Luchana
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:32 am

Hi John,

This is the roadblock to me. That all the experience is not separate from its perceiving. Without the perceiving there is no experience. That is why I affirm the presence of awareness.

And how exactly is experienced "the presence of awareness"?

As an image? Or as a thought?

Look for this presence of awareness.

Can you point it with your finger, the way you point the door?

*Can you find something called awareness? Out of the thought about awareness?*

No I can't.
Good. When you looked, you didn't find awareness, because simply is not there.
Knowing seems to be needed in order for something to be known.
Let's look more

How many things are there in experience?

Are there really two? Knowing? Known? Or maybe three?

In your previous reply you wrote that the knower could not be found, but who or what wants to know?

Please don't just guess or theorize. You really have to look.

Find this special one which needs something to be known.

Where is it? Where exactly? - find its exact physical location.

Don't rush with replies. Take as much time as it needs, Don't look ones or twice. You have to look 80-100 times and even more.
So take your time, John.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

User avatar
GioB
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:35 am

Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:16 am

Luchana,

I have been looking.
And it feels like we have gone down a rabbit hole in which we are just defining words.

We have used awareness in two different ways. First as a substitute of the word perception, which would make it also a substitute of the word experience. I believe we both accept this.

The other way was to talk about knowing. I am saying that knowing exists. There is knowing. Also am not saying it is separate from that that is known, I am saying that what is known is one and the same with knowing. They are one thing.

You ask me if awareness/knowing is experienced.
When I read this question what comes across is is experiencing experienced? Which is confusing, as the question affirms experiencing whilst at the same time questioning it.

Nonetheless there is knowing. Whenever I point to a door, I point to knowing. The door is experience, and the experience is known. There is knowing and experience and they are one and the same thing. If you were to tell me that knowing did not exist. Then nothing would. I believe this is what you point to when you ask if perceiving is separate from thought. They are one and the same, just as knowing and known.

Could it be we are saying the same things and have misunderstood each other?

how many things are there?
One.

In your previous reply you wrote that the knower could not be found, but who or what wants to know? Find this special one which needs something to be known.

There is no desire to be the knower, to be the one that knows. There is no special one which needs something to be known. I believe I was saying that there is no known without knowing.

Thank you,
John

User avatar
Luchana
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:47 pm

Hi John,

I understand how you feel. It could be confusing, for sure.
But this inquiry is not about words and dwelling into words. This inquiry is about constant repetition. Our main goal - the essence of this work you can call it is to see the difference between reality / experience and THOUGHTS ABOUT reality. Here we are learning to distinguish between reality (experience) and imagination (thought).

From your reply I see that you are still into thinking and this brings you a confusion. Sure, the words are usful for communication, otherwise we wouldn't communicate, but what they do is only to point to reality, to what is.
There are words which point to objects, to material things - like table, chair, door. There are words like university, town, port that are used for communication, but can not be found as a thing and the third are words like Santa, like Batman, or like self. These are imaginary characters, they point to something that isn't real.


We use our 5 sences to describe what is here. There are also thoughts, but we don't rely on thoughts (we just notice them).
So using the 5 sences we describe that the word awareness is experienced as nothing more than a thought, an imagination. We coudn't see awareness even if look all over, not we can taste awareness, we can't even touch it.

Can you see this?


Nonetheless there is knowing. Whenever I point to a door, I point to knowing.


All right, I see what you mean. You see that there is door and you also see that there is a knowing about the door.

Let's make something now. You have to be very alert and vigilant, watch like a cat, which is hunting a mouse.

Ok. Look at the door.

Is there a door?

Don't go to thoughts about the door, or to knowing about the door.

Go to the door. I mean literally go to the door.

Touch it with your hand, you can even kick it with your leg. Look at it. Smell it.

Can you see what is real?


If you don't go into thought about knowing of a door, there is only a door.

You can't kick the knowing, can you?

Can you make a difference between what is real and what is not?

It is very, very simple. Right in front of you. Look arround, can you see clearly what is real?

Take your time and write what you find.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.


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