Stillness

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Colette01
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Re: Stillness

Postby Colette01 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:36 am

Part 2: The footy game...actually I'm from Liverpool and a Liverpool FC fan. You might have heard of that team ;-)? Take your time with the posts, address the previous first, be thorough, if there's any unease about clarity let me know and we can go over stuff...you're doing well...
Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off. Without thought and looking at AE, what is actually appearing/happening.
With the sound on "I" am listening to someone else's interpretation of events,
with the sound off I was mostly listening to an "inner" interpretation of what was happening.
Dropping into AE was a different experience. More in the moment rather than relying on past experiences.
Yes, when the commentary drops there is just neutral AE.

With the sound on - is there an 'I' listening or is there AE = hearing? You must be able to find an 'I' that is listening in AE? If there's no 'I" there's just hearing? Don't just agree or disagree and dont think about this as it won't bring clarity - go back to AE - sit and watch - are there 2 things i.e. hearing and some thing hearing?

With the sound off.... are there colours with the sound off and on? There is hearing?
What is 'inner' interpretation and what in AE is being interpreted? What in AE could past experience be?

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?
A definite no.
That's right...life just happens.
And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
Same answer! In fact focusing on thoughts rather than AE really creates a narrow experience.
Just a note here - the face value of thought is also AE (its part of AE and not an antagonistic or separate part)
and thought either points to AE or points to thoughts about thought ie content of thought.

Can you see the correlation between the sports commentator and the ‘narrator in the head’ called my thoughts? Babies dont know the name of anything, they have to learn that, but still, they live life.

Is what thought points to real?

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Faithy
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Re: Stillness

Postby Faithy » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:29 am

Hi Colette,
So, the content of thought is known but...is there something other than thought arising e.g.
Is there is an ‘I’ (with or without inverted commas) that can do some thing?
Is there a ‘you’ wondering how dad is or is there just a thought with content? 

Is there an ‘I’ having thoughts.
Is there a thinker of thoughts? CAN YOU FIND IT?
There are thoughts about my dad.
The content of thoughts is known in awareness
I can't see a thinker in AE.
I can't locate an I in AE.
Things get done eg. "Faithy" went and visited "her parents"
Thoughts direct the activities or the body/Faithy. Not all thoughts result in activity.
The body/Faithy moves and acts and there is awareness of sensations, sights, tastes, smells and sounds.
No I to be found but some thoughts get rejected and others are enacted. I can't see an I choosing but also can't see how this happens. Is the body just "doing" robotically according to programming?????

Is the thing which all these thoughts are pointing to real, can anything be found that resembles the 'I' that thinks or does things?
CAN YOU FIND IT?
Also thoughts are ideas and "I" translate them into sentences so that I can "hear" them clearly.

Is there an ‘I’ translating anything into a thing called a sentence?

Is there an ‘I’ that can hear thoughts?

Is there a subject interpreting / translating / hearing / watching thoughts?

Is there a subject and object to be found in your AE? Find it.
No the I that all these thoughts are pointing to hasn't been found just awareness experiencing.
Perhaps rather than an I there was awareness becoming more focussed.
The perhaps indicates here isn't clarity around this.

More looking needed!!!!

I'll go on to the next post later.

Thanks Colette. I'd be totally lost without you even though there is no I and no you! Go Liverpool!

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Colette01
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Re: Stillness

Postby Colette01 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:17 am

Hi Faithy,
Perhaps rather than an I there was awareness becoming more focussed
Just watch that you're not conflating 'I' with awareness, continuing to identify with.....as....awareness.
Can you find awareness?
Thoughts direct the activities or the body/Faithy. Not all thoughts result in activity.
Do thoughts direct activities? Get up and go put the kettle on. Is thought necessary in order to put one foot in front of the other, to turn the head, to flick the switch - check it out. Is there a thought that says 'I am directing activities'? Is the content real / true?
Not all thoughts result in activity

(we'll look more closely at this shortly but if some thoughts direct activity as you say, and some dont, is something or someone choosing which will direct and which not, which to act on and which to discard?)
The body/Faithy moves and acts
....
are you equating sensation with 'Faithy', 'you', 'I'? What is the label 'Faithy' actually referring to? Have a look. Is there body?
No I to be found but some thoughts get rejected and others are enacted. I can't see an I choosing but also can't see how this happens. Is the body just "doing" robotically according to programming?????
This is an interesting question Faithy and we are going to explore it after we've cleared up the last posts.

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Faithy
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Re: Stillness

Postby Faithy » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:34 am

Hi Colette,
With the sound on - is there an 'I' listening or is there AE = hearing? You must be able to find an 'I' that is listening in AE? If there's no 'I" there's just hearing? Don't just agree or disagree and dont think about this as it won't bring clarity - go back to AE - sit and watch - are there 2 things i.e. hearing and some thing hearing?
There is hearing. Words are heard and understood not just as sounds but with meaning communicated.

With the sound off.... are there colours with the sound off and on? There is hearing?
What is 'inner' interpretation and what in AE is being interpreted? What in AE could past experience be?
There are colours and forms with the sound off and on.
Nothing in AE was being interpreted. Meaning was being attributed to the colours and forms by thought.
In AE past experience is thoughts.
Just watch that you're not conflating 'I' with awareness, continuing to identify with.....as....awareness.
Can you find awareness?
The difference between I and awareness is awareness is not just located in the supposed body it's more pervasive. There's a stillness in perceiving in awareness. This is from AE not just intellectual information. No I can't actually find awareness either.
Do thoughts direct activities? Get up and go put the kettle on. Is thought necessary in order to put one foot in front of the other, to turn the head, to flick the switch - check it out. Is there a thought that says 'I am directing activities'? Is the content real / true?
Thought is not necessary to do a lot of physical activities but
is something or someone choosing which will direct and which not, which to act on and which to discard?)
I can't see anyone or anything choosing but there are sensations and thoughts that seem to play a role in the choice of response.
are you equating sensation with 'Faithy', 'you', 'I'? What is the label 'Faithy' actually referring to? Have a look. Is there body?
No. sensations are just sensations. The label Faithy refers to a character that has been constructed.

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Colette01
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Re: Stillness

Postby Colette01 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:08 pm

Hi Faithy,

It seems to me that you are not LOOKING with AE when looking to see what is being pointed at. You are still going with what you think you know. Shifting from thinking to looking can be frustrating and require some practice, but relying on, and using learned knowledge (thoughts) is the "wrong tool" to do this inquiry with. This is about noticing what can be found in your immediate direct xperience, noticing what's going on here now sound, colour, taste, smell, sensation and the face value of thought.

As there is still confusion to what actual experience is....please take a couple of days to read this post carefully and do the exercises given several times in order to start looking with AE instead of using thoughts as your tool box.
With the sound on - is there an 'I' listening or is there AE = hearing? You must be able to find an 'I' that is listening in AE? If there's no 'I" there's just hearing? Don't just agree or disagree and dont think about this as it won't bring clarity - go back to AE - sit and watch - are there 2 things i.e. hearing and some thing hearing?
There is hearing. Words are heard and understood not just as sounds but with meaning communicated.
How is it known that "words are heard and understood not just as sounds but with meaning"?
What is it that points to sound and then describes them as words?


Now you are going to have to sit and look at this question via AE very carefully to see what it is as opposed to what thought says it is.
With the sound off.... are there colours with the sound off and on? There is hearing?
What is 'inner' interpretation and what in AE is being interpreted? What in AE could past experience be?
There are colours and forms with the sound off and on.
Without thought, how is it known that there are forms? Shapes are simply different patterns of colour. So, how is it known that there are forms?

When you did the apple exercise....did you find a form of any description, or did you find what thought claims to be a form was simply colour and sensations? Sensations being what thought would normally describe as matter ie solid object that is heavy, smooth, round. In other words, descriptions.

Does colour itself, in any way suggest that it is or has forms or shapes?
Does sensation itself, suggest in any way that it was an apple?


Sit at a table and put both hands palm down on the table. Close your eyes whilst putting aside ALL thoughts and mental images of table and hands and go directly to the actual experience. In other words...IGNORE all thoughts and mental images and notice your direct actual experience.

What do you find?
What is the actual experience? Can a table or hand be found at all in actual experience or is there simply the AE of sensation?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is a hand or a table?
What is it that suggests that the sensation is caused by a hand touching a table?

Nothing in AE was being interpreted. Meaning was being attributed to the colours and forms by thought.
In AE past experience is thoughts.
Yes, the AE of 'past experience' is AE of thought. I am wondering though, if you are still finding it difficult to see the difference between the face value of thought and the content of thought?

A thought, in and of itself is like a container.
The content of a thought is what a thought is ABOUT
When a thought is seen only as a container, and the content of a thought (what it’s about) is being ignored - this is what is called actual experience of a thought.
So, we can say, that in actual experience, the arising of a thought (the container) is real, but what it’s ABOUT, the content, is not. The thought (as container) is there in reality, but the content of a thought is fiction. Do you see the difference?

So the thought “I still believe that I am a 'me'”, arises. So the thought is actual experience of thought. The ensuing thought of what that means is the content of that thought. In other words, the thoughts that arise with that thought, about that thought, are the content of that thought. They too are AE of thought but are the content of the thought "I still believe that I am a 'me'". Is this clear?

Just watch that you're not conflating 'I' with awareness, continuing to identify with.....as....awareness.
Can you find awareness?
The difference between I and awareness is awareness is not just located in the supposed body it's more pervasive. There's a stillness in perceiving in awareness. This is from AE not just intellectual information. No I can't actually find awareness either.

Where does "stillness", "awareness" sit in AE? Is it a thought, smell, taste, colour, sensation or sound?


You are still seeing from the point of view of a subject/object split. That there is a me or a something, be it described as stillness or awareness that is aware of itself as a subject and aware of those things outside of 'me' that are objects. And this is fine. This investigation will help you realise that there is no separate self, and we will look at the idea of separation later, however the subject/object split will not be seen through clearly. That takes much more digging and exploration and much much more time.
Do thoughts direct activities? Get up and go put the kettle on. Is thought necessary in order to put one foot in front of the other, to turn the head, to flick the switch - check it out. Is there a thought that says 'I am directing activities'? Is the content real / true? Thought is not necessary to do a lot of physical activities but
"but" what exactly? The only reason there is a 'but' is because you are not LOOKING. Looking takes diligence and patience. What is it that suggests that activities rely on thoughts? Have a LOOK and see what is it that suggests that and let me know what you find.
is something or someone choosing which will direct and which not, which to act on and which to discard?)
I can't see anyone or anything choosing but there are sensations and thoughts that seem to play a role in the choice of response.

Again, you aren't LOOKING. Your are simply going with what you think you already know and not LOOKING with AE.

Without thought, how would this be known exactly? How is it known that "sensations and thoughts that seem to play a role in the choice of response"?
are you equating sensation with 'Faithy', 'you', 'I'? What is the label 'Faithy' actually referring to? Have a look. Is there body?No. sensations are just sensations. The label Faithy refers to a character that has been constructed.
How is that known? How is it known that the label "Faithy" refers to a character that has been constructed? What is the AE of this character?

Thought labels ‘colours’, ‘sensations’ (cold/hot/pressure etc) etc as a body - but no actual body is present. Thought does this with everything that seems to exist and to create the 'person in the world' illusion.


Image


Notice what is actually present in this image. Thought says it's a cartoon character called Bart Simpson, but all that's actually there is yellow, red, blue, white, black. There is no Bart present in the image at all. The AE of Bart is thought.

Can you see that Bart is 100% just a story? The body is a story in the same way.

Also notice that the thing which thought claims is your body doesn't even have a head.

Close the eyes and put a tip of a finger to the top of the head. Now, ignore all thoughts and images about a ‘fingertip’ and ‘head’ and what is the actual experience?
Can you find a head?

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Faithy
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Re: Stillness

Postby Faithy » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:04 am

Thanks Colette for you inspired guidance.
I'll get back to LOOKING!

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Faithy
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Re: Stillness

Postby Faithy » Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:32 am

Hello again Colette,
How is it known that "words are heard and understood not just as sounds but with meaning"?
What is it that points to sound and then describes them as words?
Thoughts
Without thought, how is it known that there are forms? Shapes are simply different patterns of colour. So, how is it known that there are forms?
It's not known without thoughts.
Does colour itself, in any way suggest that it is or has forms or shapes?
Does sensation itself, suggest in any way that it was an apple?
No colour doesn't suggest form.
Nor does sensation suggest form.
Sit at a table and put both hands palm down on the table. Close your eyes whilst putting aside ALL thoughts and mental images of table and hands and go directly to the actual experience. In other words...IGNORE all thoughts and mental images and notice your direct actual experience.

What do you find?
What is the actual experience? Can a table or hand be found at all in actual experience or is there simply the AE of sensation?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is a hand or a table?
What is it that suggests that the sensation is caused by a hand touching a table?
There is sensation. Neither the table nor the hand are perceived in AE. The sensation doesn't suggest either a table or a hand. Thought content does.
So the thought “I still believe that I am a 'me'”, arises. So the thought is actual experience of thought. The ensuing thought of what that means is the content of that thought. In other words, the thoughts that arise with that thought, about that thought, are the content of that thought. They too are AE of thought but are the content of the thought "I still believe that I am a 'me'". Is this clear?
Yes. The difference between AE of thought and content of thought is clear.

Where does "stillness", "awareness" sit in AE? Is it a thought, smell, taste, colour, sensation or sound?
No awareness is not an AE it witnesses AE. AE arises in awareness.
"but" what exactly? The only reason there is a 'but' is because you are not LOOKING. Looking takes diligence and patience. What is it that suggests that activities rely on thoughts? Have a LOOK and see what is it that suggests that and let me know what you find.Without thought, how would this be known exactly? How is it known that "sensations and thoughts that seem to play a role in the choice of response"?
Sorry that but was meant to have an answer following but I must have cut it off. . I look and experience AE eg. sensations and thoughts,. The content of thoughts suggests thoughts play a role in the choice of response

How is that known? How is it known that the label "Faithy" refers to a character that has been constructed? What is the AE of this character?
The AE of Faithy is thought. Faithy is the content of thoughts.
Can you see that Bart is 100% just a story? The body is a story in the same way.
Yes. It's easy to see Bart as 100% a story and in AE the body also isn't real. It's just content of thoughts
Close the eyes and put a tip of a finger to the top of the head. Now, ignore all thoughts and images about a ‘fingertip’ and ‘head’ and what is the actual experience?
Can you find a head?
No head found just sensation.

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Faithy
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Re: Stillness

Postby Faithy » Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:34 am

One correction Faithy doesn't experience AE!
Faithy is just content of thought.

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Colette01
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Re: Stillness

Postby Colette01 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:37 pm

How is it known that "words are heard and understood not just as sounds but with meaning"? What is it that points to sound and then describes them as words?
Thoughts
Yes! So can you see how thought points to either AE or thoughts about thought?
So thought points to sound and labels it 'words' and everything else that pertains to that label is the content of the thought/label 'words'?
Without thought, how is it known that there are forms? Shapes are simply different patterns of colour. So, how is it known that there are forms? It's not known without thoughts.
Yes :-)
Does colour itself, in any way suggest that it is or has forms or shapes? Does sensation itself, suggest in any way that it was an apple? No colour doesn't suggest form.Nor does sensation suggest form
Yes :-)
There is sensation. Neither the table nor the hand are perceived in AE. The sensation doesn't suggest either a table or a hand. Thought content does.
Yes! Nice looking! So keep doing this as you move throughout your day. When you sit in a chair, for example, have a look at what thought is suggesting is a bum and a chair and look for the actual experience. Do this when you are sitting and thought suggests there are feet standing on a floor.
Where does "stillness", "awareness" sit in AE? Is it a thought, smell, taste, colour, sensation or sound?
No awareness is not an AE it witnesses AE. AE arises in awareness.
Is there a 'witness? Is there' some thing that is separate from AE that is standing or sitting somewhere witnessing...can you find that in AE? Can you find an actual space into which AE arises? Is 'stillness', 'awareness' a thought, smell, taste, colour, sensation or sound?
How is it known that the label "Faithy" refers to a character that has been constructed? What is the AE of this character?
The AE of Faithy is thought. Faithy is the content of thoughts.
Yes! Nice looking
Can you see that Bart is 100% just a story? The body is a story in the same way.
Yes. It's easy to see Bart as 100% a story and in AE the body also isn't real. It's just content of thoughts
Nice!

Close the eyes and put a tip of a finger to the top of the head. Now, ignore all thoughts and images about a ‘fingertip’ and ‘head’ and what is the actual experience?
Can you find a head?
No head found just sensation.

Exactly! So do thoughts appear in a head?
One correction Faithy doesn't experience AE!
Faithy is just content of thought.
Yes! Faithy is just content of thought. You are not the character in the movie!

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Faithy
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Re: Stillness

Postby Faithy » Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:07 am

Hi Colette,
Is there a 'witness? Is there' some thing that is separate from AE that is standing or sitting somewhere witnessing...can you find that in AE? Can you find an actual space into which AE arises? Is 'stillness', 'awareness' a thought, smell, taste, colour, sensation or sound?
No there is nothing separate from AE that is standing or sitting somewhere witnessing.
Awareness can't be found in AE
No awareness is not a thought, smell, taste, colour, sensation or sound.
Can you find a head?
No head found just sensation.
Exactly! So do thoughts appear in a head?
No thoughts don't appear in a head. A head appears in the content of thoughts.

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Colette01
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Re: Stillness

Postby Colette01 » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:31 pm

Hello Faithy,
Can you find a head?
No head found just sensation.
Exactly! So do thoughts appear in a head?
No thoughts don't appear in a head. A head appears in the content of thoughts.
Great. Since there is no head...then can awareness actually be found in a head?
Is there a 'witness? Is there' some thing that is separate from AE that is standing or sitting somewhere witnessing...can you find that in AE? Can you find an actual space into which AE arises? Is 'stillness', 'awareness' a thought, smell, taste, colour, sensation or sound?
No there is nothing separate from AE that is standing or sitting somewhere witnessing.
Awareness can't be found in AE
No awareness is not a thought, smell, taste, colour, sensation or sound.
Lovely…so awareness cannot be found as or in a some thing. As you can see, awareness IS, but cannot be found or identified with, or as anything….yes?

So, even if we cant find awareness... there might still be a lingering sense of identification, there is seeing so someone is doing that, choosing what is seen? Lets look directly at the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

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Faithy
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Re: Stillness

Postby Faithy » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:21 am

Hi Colette,
Great. Since there is no head...then can awareness actually be found in a head?
No. Awareness can't be found in a head as head is just content of thoughts.
So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
Can you turn off seeing?
What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
No. There is no choice not to see. Seeing can't be turned off.
No. A self doesn't choose anything in AE.
There is an ability to focus awareness.

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Colette01
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Re: Stillness

Postby Colette01 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:01 pm

Hi Faithy,

Yes, there is no choice not to see, seeing is not turned off or controlled by a seer. But, then you say;
There is an ability to focus awareness

Shall we look at this more closely? What has ability .... to focus awareness. This suggests 2 things or presumes duality? If ability to focus is there you should be able to find it.

Sit down somewhere, look around, there will be colours, sounds, sensations, there is awareness, find the ability to focus awareness or anything else making the choice to focus or not focus? Is there anyone pulling the focus strings?

If you cant find 'the ability' or anything that is choosing to focus, what is it that is suggesting ability and choice? What creates ability, choice, chooser?

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focussing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?

What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?


Describe what you see.


Please go back to and answer this question:

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

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Faithy
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Re: Stillness

Postby Faithy » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:37 am

Hi Colette,

Sorry I didn't get back to you yesterday but I needed more time.
If you cant find 'the ability' or anything that is choosing to focus, what is it that is suggesting ability and choice? What creates ability, choice, chooser?
Content of thought is suggesting ability and choice
Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focussing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?
Focus moves by itself. No I can't control it.
What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?
Describe what you see.
Attention moves by itself. No. Thinking is not in control of attention. At times thought content attempts to control attention but then attention moves by itself.

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
There is no you/I. No one to choose. Nothing to choose. Just awareness unfolding and yet I can't see what notices awareness.
A deeper layer of awareness? More looking needed.

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Colette01
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Re: Stillness

Postby Colette01 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:55 am

Hello Faithy,
If you cant find 'the ability' or anything that is choosing to focus, what is it that is suggesting ability and choice? What creates ability, choice, chooser?
Content of thought is suggesting ability and choice
Exactly.
Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focussing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?
Focus moves by itself. No I can't control it.
That's right, there is no control. Just to be clear, it isnt that there is still an 'I' that has no control or control - just no 'I'.
What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?
Describe what you see.
Attention moves by itself. No. Thinking is not in control of attention. At times thought content attempts to control attention but then attention moves by itself.
Yes, thinking is not in control of anything, but then you say that the content of thought attempts to control attention?

What creates the illusion that thought attempts to control attention?
What creates the illusion that thought has agency i.e. can decide to do something like attempt to control attention.

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
There is no you/I. No one to choose. Nothing to choose. Just awareness unfolding and yet I can't see what notices awareness.
A deeper layer of awareness? More looking needed.
Can you see here where you've moved from AE into thinking? There could have been a full stop after unfolding and you could have felt into that insight.

So, what happened after the fullstop? What created 'deeper' and 'layers'? Can you see how thinking muddies the water?

Try sitting and absorbing:

'There is no 'me'. No one to choose. Just awareness unfolding'

Each time there is awareness of 'no one choosing', 'just awareness unfolding', pause, allow the full stop ...how does 'no one choosing' land? Let me know


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