Freedom Now

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MeFree
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Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:53 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that the self is basically a conceptual construct, or at least the self image is. I understand that my self image isn't a very accurate description of who I am yet I continue to live out of my old beliefs. The self "I" seems very real although I am open to the possibility that the "I" me is also a belief.

What are you looking for at LU?
Looking for freedom from being a self. Looking for freedom from the burden of self referencing thoughts. Looking for guidance and support in having this happen. It sounds funny to say this but I want to be free from myself.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect that there will be ups and downs, frustrations and openings, disappointments and satisfactions. I am hoping that the process will work for me and bring the desired results. I am more familiar with open ended inquiry and I am hoping that this more directed approach will work for me without too much resistance.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been involved for many years in a dyad contemplation process called an Enlightenment Intensive. It is a form of inquiry using contemplation and communication using questions such as Who am I, What am I, What is life, What is another, What is Love. Many different spiritual experiences have occured over the years, many openings and shifts into Truth. Yet my personal life as an individual continues to be somewhat problematic. The moments of peace, connection, no-self, oneness, universal love, or whatever all seem to fade far too quickly and I find myself right back where I started again.

As far as seeking behavior goes, I can see that I am always seeking something, not just in the spiritual sense. Seeking the next activity, the next purchase, the next sport, the next class, the next art form, the next job, the next relationship, the next book, the next therapy,..... basically my entire life has been seeking some sort of satisfaction. And as Mick Jagger says I can't get no satisfaction!

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:36 pm

Hi Mefree, welcome to LU.
Glad you made it here!
I here to assist you. Thank you for patience waiting for guide.
I hear that you are looking for satisfaction and being free from limiting beliefs.
What do you expect that should change?
What do you hope that should happen?

Let’s see where this conversation takes you. :)
Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:57 pm

Hello Ilona!

Am happy to hear from you! I am in the middle of reading your book right now. Good stuff! Am excited that you will be my guide!
What do you expect that should change?
There is the expectation that the sense of doership or ownership will disappear and there will be an ongoing experience of "it's all just happening" without it happening to a personal "me".

What do you hope that should happen?

The hopes or fantasies include the end of personal suffering and being in a continuous flow state. I'm not seeking bliss as much as seeking effortless flow and spaciousness. And of course the fantasy of being utterly fearless is part of it too. No more fear! I understand that fear may arise as a result of an actual threat, I'm speaking more of fears that are related to past traumas and conditioning.
No more worries about making the wrong decision and no more regrets about past choices. Basically my hope is to be in a continuous state of effortless fearless flow.

As I'm writing this the thought came through that making this list of hopes is kind of like making a Christmas list for all the things I want from Santa :)

That's it for now
Thanks!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:08 am

That’s a lovely list for Santa. May your wishes be granted :)
There is the expectation that the sense of doership or ownership will disappear and there will be an ongoing experience of "it's all just happening" without it happening to a personal "me".
Good stuff. Now let’s find that sense of doership. Where does it feel in the body?
Find the sense of ownership, does this sensation own anything?
Does life happen to sensations or as sensations?

Does life happen to a sense of me or as the sensation + label?

Does sensation of doership make anything happen?

Look at the raw experience of sensation, see how it feels in the body. Observe it. Is that you?

Write what you notice.
Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:37 pm

Hi Ilona!
These are good questions you asked! I wrote a lot here, hope you can sort through it and pick out the important things to focus on.

Ok, here it is:

Now let’s find that sense of doership. Where does it feel in the body?
At first glance the sense of "I" was felt in the head, while the sense of "me" was in the heart/chest area. Then the mind started chewing on figuring out the difference between "sense" and "sensation". There is no sensation in the body of either ownership or doership. It is more like a cloud or fog that permeates all sensations. There is a sensation of tension or contraction that mixes with the other body sensations. The mind wants to use the word Gestalt but there is no actual physical sensation of such a thing.

Find the sense of ownership, does this sensation own anything?
No, the sense of ownership doesn't actually own anything. Maybe ownership is the wrong word to describe my experience. It is more like being the "chooser" than being the "owner". When things are happening to me it is different then when I am actively choosing to do something. The passive involuntary hearing, seeing, feeling, thinking, digesting is easier to see as "just happening" compared to when I am making active choices and voluntary actions. These have the quality of a "me" who is doing the choosing, making the action. For example: I am definitely making the choice of what I am going to eat or which clothes I am going to wear. (Even if my choices are based on past conditioning).

Does life happen to sensations or as sensations?
Life happens as sensations, not to sensations. That is pretty clear. Then again the mind says that having a sense of myself is not the same as having a sensation of myself. Having a sense is more diffuse than specific. Like the difference between feeling a sharp pain vs. feeling a vague sense of uneasiness. The sense of myself is more diffuse and vague, like feeling uneasy without knowing why one is feeling that way.

Does life happen to a sense of me or as the sensation + label?
Hmmmm....Life happens to me, not to the sense of me. The sense of me is part of life happening. But life is not only passively happening to me, like hearing a police siren going down the street. There is also the me that is making things happen as well. There is more to life than just passively observing sensations that arise, there is also making choices and initiating actions. And suffering the consequences of my choices. (Or enjoying the consequences of my choices).

To answer your question more directly I would choose the second option you offered, that life is more sensation + label. But I would also add that "I" am the one who is feeling the sensations and adding the labels.

Does sensation of doership make anything happen?
No. The sense of doership doesn't actually do anything!

Now I'm wondering: Where does the sense of doership even come from??

Most often the sense of doership arises simultaneously with the doing but now that I look at it is more like the sense of doership just sits there taking credit for whatever is being done. That's curious. Hmmm....

Mind says that doership is a secondary level of experience, like being feeling angry about sensations of pain. There is first doing, and then the sense of doership is added on top of that. This is different from the how I usually experience it. Usually the doer comes first, before the doing. Is the doer really added on after the fact? That's pretty much the opposite of my usual experience...

Look at the raw experience of sensation, see how it feels in the body. Observe it. Is that you?
I am cleary not the sensations that arise in body. I am the enjoyer or the sufferer of those sensations. I am the complainer about painful sensations. I am the creater of the reaction to the body sensations.


Ok I guess that's it for now. Will look into this sense of doership more. There are aspects of my self that I am clearly not doing but there are other aspects where I do experience myself as doing (being the doer). Experiences of making choices, voluntary actions, and reactions to sensations are times when the sense of "I", "me" is particularly strong. Painful sensations on the body or challenging emotions also solidify the sense of self.

Sometimes I am passively experiencing sensations happening to me (no sense of doership, more like being the "experiencer") and sometimes I am actively making things happen in the world (sense of doership).

Some resistance coming up that giving up the sense of doership will feel horribly passive, like being at the mercy of an unsafe universe...completely unable to protect myself...

Ok that's it for now!
Thank you so much!
Wishing you all the best!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:59 am

Great work, thank you for taking time to explore this.
Now you say a few things that gives us the lead to look further.
“I am doing the labelling” Is it true?
Let’s explore this closer.
How do you label things? Do you do that or it’s an automatic process?
Look around the room slowly, notice what is happening. Do you know what the next thought will be before it arrives?
Do you choose which object to label before the focus goes there?
Can you stop labelling process at will? Try that now.

Once you done exploring the room, close eyes and see how labelling happens innerly. How sensations get names, feeling, emotion is named. Are you doing it or is it happening by itself?

Is I a label or a labeller?



It’s good to notice, that doership has no sensation. It’s an assumption. Something added on experience, while looking through the lens of a separate self. Actions happen, regardless if ownership, doership is claimed or not. Notice, the body knows what to do, it works without your commands, it grows new cells, pumps blood, heals, gets hungry, walks, moves, all naturally.. loosing an assumption of doership does not make this body passive. Explore this as well.

Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:34 pm

Hello Ilona!

Here are the results from today's looking at thoughts and labeling.

During this process today I did get a glimmer of recognition that I am actually claiming credit for something after the fact. Like the "I" is somehow added on after the fact but it was a very faint and fleeting recognition.
“I am doing the labelling” Is it true? How do you label things? Do you do that or it’s an automatic process?
When looked at now, the labeling appears to be an automatic process although I am able to influence it to some degree if I focus my attention on it.
Look around the room slowly, notice what is happening. Do you know what the next thought will be before it arrives?
No, I do not know the next thought until it arrives.

Do you choose which object to label before the focus goes there?
No, the focus shifts before the labeling occurs.
Can you stop labelling process at will? Try that now.
I can stop the labeling process of objects in the room to some degree, as long as I intend to do so. At some point I lose focus and go back into automatic mode. I don't usually put much energy into labeling external objects, my mind is more concerned with labeling inner states, moods, emotions .
Once you done exploring the room, close eyes and see how labelling happens innerly. How sensations get names, feeling, emotion is named. Are you doing it or is it happening by itself?
It is more or less an automatic process that I am aware of. It is mostly happening by itself. I am aware of the labeling thoughts even if I am not consciously choosing the labels.
Is I a label or a labeller?
I is both. I is a label that is given to the labeller. I is first the labeller even before I is labeled as "I". I give myself the label "I".
..loosing an assumption of doership does not make this body passive. Explore this as well.
Letting go of doership.... then everything is just happening TO ME. That's still a different experience than everything is "just happening" with no me involed in any way. Do you understand what I mean?

Even if I'm not the doer, not the owner, not the thinker, not the labeller, and it's all completely out of my control, there is still this me here that is experiencing all of this as being out of my control.... Having no control over anything in the universe isn't the same as freedom from the I-me-self.... Well this is what is coming up now, possibly resistance, but also not quite understanding the connection between not having control over automatic processes and there being no I-me-self. Maybe I am trying to jump ahead in the process?

In any case this is what is occuring today. Thank you Ilona! Am looking forward to further guidance

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:03 am

Good work.
..loosing an assumption of doership does not make this body passive. Explore this as well.
Letting go of doership.... then everything is just happening TO ME. That's still a different experience than everything is "just happening" with no me involed in any way. Do you understand what I mean?
How about everything is happening AS ME. See the difference? Life is happening as thoughts, sensation, ideas, emotions, action, behaviour, etc.

Ok let’s continue looking at labelling
Here is an exercise
http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html
Do it here or on paper and have a good look, is I a labeller or a label? Can it be both?

Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:33 pm

Hi Ilona!
This whole "I" thing has become very curious. It's here but it's not here. I mean I can't find the "I" outside of thoughts or language. Is it really just a fantasy? Nothing feels more real than ME! Could it really be true that the word/thought "I" doesn't actually refer to anything?? I am open to that possibility but right now it really is ME that the being open to possibility!
How about everything is happening AS ME. See the difference? Life is happening as thoughts, sensation, ideas, emotions, action, behaviour, etc.
Life happening AS me has a nice quality to it, sort of freeing, while life happening TO me has more of a helpless victim quality. I recall Jim Carrey saying something like "Life doesn't happen to you, life happens FOR you" which also has a different quality to it. Life happening AS me seems the most freeing right now, but it's all too easy to shift back to the default victim mode.
Ok let’s continue looking at labelling
Here is an exercise
http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html
Do it here or on paper and have a good look, is I a labeller or a label? Can it be both?
Doing the exercise of writing one page using "I" statements then one page using just verbs without the "I" was interesting. Sometimes I write that like that anyway, as sort of shorthand for emails, where the "I" is implied. I am assuming that the way you use it is without the implication of the self subject. Have been noticing how many of my thoughts are self-referencing. Probably more than 90% of the thoughts are about me in some way. "I feel..."" I want..." "I like...""my knee hurts..."

As far as languageing goes, the I is a label. The label I does not create other labels. The label I is the name given to that which creates labels. The label I points to something, and that something is ME. Or at least that is what my mind is saying. The label I points back to the sense of self, which has no sensation, as we explored a few days ago...feeling like this is kind of going in a circle....

Ok that's it for now.
Thank you!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:50 am

Great work.
The label I points to me. What does the label me point to?
Here is something for you to read, to get a clearer view.
http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/ ... guage.html

Is it possible that word me is a concept, useful for communication, but it’s a concept and not an entity?
In experience right here right now there is sense of being. Knowing that is am, knowing that I am aware. These words point to actuality of presence, beingness, aliveness.
Does aliveness need you to maintain it?
Is there me that owns aliveness? Or it just IS?

What’s true in your experience?

Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:48 pm

Hi Ilona!
Hope you are doing well!
Here is today's communication:
The label I points to me. What does the label me point to?
The label "I" and the label "me" point to the same subject -this individual- who is currently typing these words. It doesn't feel like typing is just happening. It feels like I am doing the typing.
Is it possible that word me is a concept, useful for communication, but it’s a concept and not an entity?
Yes it is possible that I and me are concepts and don't refer to an entity. This is possible but it is not the current experience.

The possessive "my" and "mine" are also labels (concepts) that refer to this individual human form. These can be very useful concepts. Example: say I go to some event where everyone takes their shoes off at the door. After the event is over there is this individual human life form there looking for "my" shoes. One one hand there is no such thing as "my" shoes, there is just a big pile of shoes. But if I just grab any pair of shoes randomly, there could be some social repercussions! Or if give up the concept of "my" money or "my" car, "my" house, this could really cause some confusion! It is a little easier to see that the possessive "my" and "mine" are social constructs, but they are still very useful for life!
Seeing that I and me are just social constructs is much harder to see.
Does aliveness need you to maintain it?
Is there me that owns aliveness? Or it just IS?
What’s true in your experience?
There is a sense of aliveness that is impersonal and there is also a sense of individuality with choice. This individual is what is labeled as "I". The aliveness has no problems but this I does. Aliveness just is the raw experience. Aliveness does not need an I. The I is added on top of the aliveness but it's not like I can stop the "I-ing". The doing of I-ness doesn't stop by force of will. As much as I want to stop the I-ing it doesn't stop.

There have been a couple of times in the past when the illusionary I has disappeared leaving just the freedom of aliveness but then the next day the I returns on it's own with all of its drama and suffering. I don't know why the I keeps coming back after being seen through! This is very frustrating!!!

Feelings of frustration are strong today. It's such a paradox that I am trying to see through the illusion of I. Some of the pointers you are giving are really great but today there is a lot of frustration.

Today it is hard to see that the label "I" doesn't refer to anything real. How can there not be a separate entity here?? Even though there are memories of times in the past when aliveness has been free of the illusion of being a separate entity, the I-me-self continues to be the ongoing experience. Even if I say that the I-ing is a function of life, if I say there is no me and it is only a convention of language, the experience of the separate self continues on. This is a very tenacious belief! Even though the truth has been recognized in the past, after one night of sleep the I-me-self is completely in charge again!

Ok that's it for today.
Hope you can see a way out of this mess!
All the best Ilona!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:18 am

Thank you.
How do you experience the entity?
Where is the separate self in experience right now?
What is it separate from?
How do you know that an individual entity is here, what proves it?
Does thinking about batman make batman real entity? Or is batman a fictional character in a story ABOUT batman?
Does batman choose what happens to him in the story?
Does batman think?
And how (your name) is different from batman?

Have fun with this. Really look what feels true to you and write what you find.

Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:50 am

Hi Ilona
Hope this finds you well!
Ok, here are the results of today's inquiry.
How do you experience the entity?
Hmmm..... I can't find anything like an entity as such. There is just me looking for an entity.
Where is the separate self in experience right now? What is it separate from?
The separate self is at the center of all experiences throughout the day. I use the label "separate self" because so many others use that phrase, but otherwise I would just say "self". This so called separate self appears separated from that which is being experienced. Self is separate from what is being experienced.
How do you know that an individual entity is here, what proves it?
No one else is feeling the sensations in my body except me. No one else is aware of the thoughts I am having. No one else is making the choices that I am making. No one else is feeling the same pain that I am feeling right now.

Can not find a way to objectively prove that I am an individual being, but also can't prove the opposite either.... Am now looking into this idea that the self is actually just an assumption... Hmmm.... The idea that if there is experience then there must be an experiencer, or that there must be a hearer in order to hear, or thinker in order to think, this is a very hard beleif to shake! How can there just be seeing without a see-er? My mind can't get itself around this! Choices without a chooser?!? Doing without a doer?!? It's my mind who just can't accept this way of seeing the world!
Does thinking about batman make batman real entity?


No. I am aware of the distinction between fiction and non-fiction. Or between fantasy and reality.
Or is batman a fictional character in a story ABOUT batman?
Yes. Fictional.
Does batman choose what happens to him in the story?
No. The author just writes what he imagines his made up character might think or do.

Does batman think?
There is no batman to think or not think.
And how (your name) is different from batman?
How am I Jason different from Batman? I am a living flesh and blood mammal with body and mind and consciousness and (limited) free will. My story is a living breathing story of events and physical realities, not just a fantasy. The pain I feel is real, the thoughts I think are real. The injuries I sustain in my body can not be changed just by hitting the backspace on some computer keyboard to change the words of the story.

Today was harder to get into this process. I feel like we are just playing with words. Yes, words are pointers or labels I get that. Whether I say "entity" or "self" or "I" or "me" they are all pointing to the same experience. And what is that experience?? That I am here, even if I can't prove it or explain it or even find it as a sensation. I am not "just a word" and I am not "just a story". There is a real true individual here making choices with intention and taking voluntary actions, as expressions of individual free will.

Ok that's it for today.
Thank you Ilona!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:06 am

. The idea that if there is experience then there must be an experiencer, or that there must be a hearer in order to hear, or thinker in order to think, this is a very hard beleif to shake! How can there just be seeing without a see-er? My mind can't get itself around this! Choices without a chooser?!? Doing without a doer?!? It's my mind who just can't accept this way of seeing the world!
Yes!
There is an assumption that there must be a doer, because language says so.

Look at the clouds, at some point a cloud gets dark and it starts raining.
Is it cloud that does the raining? Is it rain that rains itself? Is it water that does falling? Is it conditions that make the cloud rain?
Is there a doer of rain?
How can it be, that no one starts the rain?
How can it be, that cloud does not choose to rain?

See that?
Are you separate from the whole?

You say that there is a gap between perceiver and perceived. Can you find that gap and look at what is there?

What if everything you think about yourself, free will and choose is fiction? Can you consider that as a real possibility?
How does it feel to consider that?


Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:05 pm

Hi Ilona
Here's today's results:
There is an assumption that there must be a doer, because language says so.
Hhmmmm.... Is it really only language or is it actually true?? Am feeling so conditioned by language, how much language has influenced the experience of being alive. Is it only language creating this or is it an actuality??? I'm looking into it now... curious... Will continue to look into this...

There is a lot of resistance to giving up being the doer/chooser. That is fairly clear. I just don't want to give that up. Seems like there might be some sort of fear there. Like somehow that is the only thing keeping me safe in life. The only way to prevent massive trauma depends on my ability to make the right choices and take the right actions.

Look at the clouds, at some point a cloud gets dark and it starts raining.
Is it cloud that does the raining? Is it rain that rains itself? Is it water that does falling? Is it conditions that make the cloud rain?
Is there a doer of rain?
How can it be, that no one starts the rain?
How can it be, that cloud does not choose to rain?
See that?
Yes I see that in regards to the natural processes of the physical universe. It just happens on it's own with no doer making anything happen. There was a time during a retreat when I experienced that in regards to myself, that everything "I" was doing was just happening, like the wind and the clouds. But then the apparent doer returned. And now I have a memory of that and compare my current experience to the memory. So yes, intellectually I totally agree with everything you are saying BUT that is not the current ongoing experience. There is mental agreement with what you are saying but that is not the current experience.
Are you separate from the whole?
The ongoing experience is one of being in charge of the choices being made. Of being someone who is suffering and thinking and feeling and moving. I may or may not be separate. I would say that I don't have any sort of experience of being separate from the universe, it is more like there is just a lack of feeling connected to the universe. Again, comparing memories of oneness or deep connection to the current experience shows me that I'm not feeling very connected right now. In actual reality I may be completely inseparable from the universe but that is not the current experience. I would describe the current experience as being very poorly connected rather than actually being separate.
You say that there is a gap between perceiver and perceived. Can you find that gap and look at what is there?
Not so much a gap as an invisible membrane. But if I tell you that then you will ask me to describe the membrane. Obviously it is not a physical membrane. Not the skin. Again it is a metaphor used to describe a vague sense. Hmmmm looks like I am living in a world filled with vague senses that I assume are real... In any case there is no actual "gap" between me and anything else.
What if everything you think about yourself, free will and choose is fiction? Can you consider that as a real possibility?
How does it feel to consider that?
What if everything I think about myself, free will and choice is a fiction?.... It is a very realistic fiction! Is it possible to be that deluded? Well perhaps it is....looks like there is some sort of fear around this possibility. Like if I don't make choices then some horrible trauma will envelope me...I think I mentioned this in a previous post regarding the feeling of falling into a horrible passivity unable to protect myself. Brings up old trauma stuff from infancy, no way to protect myself, helpless and powerless. No direction in life, blown about like a leaf in the wind, at the mercy of an uncaring universe, at the mercy of others who may be violent and sadistic (of course they could also be possibly loving and caring but that is less scary). So... Yes, looks like there is some belief that I can avoid traumatic situations by hanging on to being the chooser/doer self.

That's it for now. Am feeling very curious about this whole thing! How much does languageing describe reality vs. how much does languageing create reality? Will look into it.

Thank you for your time Ilona!
I tried doing this process on my own but it does seem more helpful to have some guidance!
Hope you have a wonderful day!


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