freedom

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Luchana
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Re: freedom

Postby Luchana » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:28 am

Hi Jason and Happy New Year!
I don’t know where they come from, they seem to just appear. They don’t appear to go anywhere, they just come and then go.
You did a nice looking.

This is how we look at thoughts. Looking how they come and go, and observing the short gap between them. Noticing how the current thought is passing. And waiting for the next thought to come. It is just simple.
I am NOT in control of the thoughts that appear.
Keep looking at this as many times as you can during the day. What is the feeling that arises - disappointment, frustration, excitement, amazement, joy?

Now let’s do some more investigation in thought and especially thought about “me, “I”, self.

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened)...

Take you time and let me know what you find.

Much love to you.

L.
Remember. You're dreaming.

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jasonc
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:39 am

Re: freedom

Postby jasonc » Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:43 pm

Hi Luchana,

I'm sorry it has taken me a while to post a reply, I am away again and the last couple of days I have been busy packing and travelling. I didn't want to post a hasty reply.
I am NOT in control of the thoughts that appear.
Keep looking at this as many times as you can during the day. What is the feeling that arises - disappointment, frustration, excitement, amazement, joy?
There is little or no emotion around not controlling what thoughts come up. Very very mild annoyance/frustration/anxiety perhaps around not really having a clear emotion to report back to you. There is humour at my ridiculousness! I feel like I’m trying to herd cats in trying to do this. Overall I have no 'feeling' around whether or not I can control what thoughts appear.

It seems however that, if I’m in a happy mood I get happier thoughts, if I’m angry I get angry thoughts and so on. If I have a thought that elicits an emotion, the thoughts that follow after has similar emotional response attached to it.

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened)...

Take you time and let me know what you find.
I’ve done this several times now and it looks like I’m a total narcissist! I have a lot of thought about ‘self’ (6 or 7 in the space of 5 minutes) and pretty much no thoughts about anything else, perhaps one thought in three attempts about something not relating back to me in some way!

I can't always just be thinking about 'me' as I do have problem solving type tasks I have to do, however when doing this exercise it is pretty much all 'self' thoughts that come up.

I have been trying to be aware of the gap between thoughts, they seem quite blank but also filled with the thought 'I woodier when the next thought will come?' The pauses vary in length, they seem to get longer as I concentrate on them.

Many thanks to you, love Jason

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Luchana
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Re: freedom

Postby Luchana » Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:19 pm

Hi Jason,
I'm sorry it has taken me a while to post a reply, I am away again and the last couple of days I have been busy packing and travelling. I didn't want to post a hasty reply.
It's ok, I appreciate your willingness to deeg.
I’ve done this several times now and it looks like I’m a total narcissist! I have a lot of thought about ‘self’ (6 or 7 in the space of 5 minutes) and pretty much no thoughts about anything else, perhaps one thought in three attempts about something not relating back to me in some way!
You did a nice looking.
If you investigate this "other" thought is it possible that this one is also about the ‘me’ in a hidden way?
I can't always just be thinking about 'me' as I do have problem solving type tasks I have to do, however when doing this exercise it is pretty much all 'self' thoughts that come up.
Those “other” thoughts that “solve problems”. For whom precisely are they?
Whose problems do they solve?


Here is an interesting exercise.
Go and take two glasses and put inside different beverages (milk and water, or juice and water, or coffe and tea). Put these glasses in front of you. Look at them and chose one.


How the decision is made which glass to choose?
Is there a exact moment of choice or it happens automatically?
Do ‘you’ choose?
Can a chooser be located?


Be very vigilant, do as many times as it’s possible.
and write what you find.

Much love to you.

L.
Remember. You're dreaming.

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jasonc
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:39 am

Re: freedom

Postby jasonc » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:57 am

Hi Luchana,

Thanks for the exercise, it was very interesting!
If you investigate this "other" thought is it possible that this one is also about the ‘me’ in a hidden way?
The ‘other’ thought was related to self! ‘I’ was wondering how something was made. I am someone who designs/makes things!

Those “other” thoughts that “solve problems”. For whom precisely are they?
Whose problems do they solve?
I see what you mean, they are solving problems for ‘me’! They are ‘my’ problems!

Go and take two glasses and put inside different beverages (milk and water, or juice and water, or coffe and tea). Put these glasses in front of you. Look at them and chose one.

How the decision is made which glass to choose?
I've no idea how the decision is made. The decisions are automatic! Tea or coffee? I don’t need to ‘ponder’ and the answer comes as a ‘thought’, or even no thought if I’m thirsty I can be drinking before I realise the decision is made.
It seems that things are habitual, I have been eating breakfast in a hotel and looking at how I choose what I eat, its not the same as a choice of two things, but the choosing is instinctual, I don't think about it, it happens.
Is there a exact moment of choice or it happens automatically?
No, there is no moment of choice, it is automatic.
Do ‘you’ choose?
No, it is not a conscious choice, I just 'know' the answer.
Can a chooser be located?
No, it is like a thought appears with the answer or even more simple, I just act with the decision made without a conscious choice being made.

This is very interesting, I have been noticing my own behaviour lately. I do things ‘habitually’ and sometimes wonder why I’m doing them. Decisions as to how I behave or speak to people sometimes seem odd to me, ‘why did I do that?’ has occurred to me several times lately but things sometimes occur before ‘I’ realise what ‘I’m’ doing. It feels quite puzzling and bizarre! I have to be actively aware if I want to change my behaviour! It seems like this is related, automatic behaviour, automatic choice!

Thank you Luchana, I look forward to hearing from you.

Love Jason

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Luchana
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Re: freedom

Postby Luchana » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:43 am

Hi Jason,
I've no idea how the decision is made. The decisions are automatic!
Great. Is there anything which doesn't go on automatic?
No, there is no moment of choice, it is automatic.
You did a nice looking.
I have to be actively aware if I want to change my behaviour! It seems like this is related, automatic behaviour, automatic choice!
Let's pay attention to the "I" who needs to be aware. The one that seems to have controll and wanted to change the behaviour.

Where in the body is felt this one?
Can you point it with your finger?
Where exactly the finger will point?
Stay with this sensation in the body and look around.
Where is that one that choose and have control over things?
Do things need someone to choose and control or they are happening on their own?


You're doing really great Jason, keep looking, vigiliant right here in your direct experience.

Much love to you,

L.
Remember. You're dreaming.

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jasonc
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:39 am

Re: freedom

Postby jasonc » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:09 am

Hi Luchana,

Thanks for your last post.
Is there anything which doesn't go on automatic?
I don’t think there is. I can see choices being made and I can see me sometimes not liking the choices I make but I do all of this automatically.
Let's pay attention to the "I" who needs to be aware. The one that seems to have controll and wanted to change the behaviour.

Where in the body is felt this one?
This has been challenging to see! I can’t see any place where ‘I’ resides within me, I do feel sensations related to ‘thoughts’ that ‘I’ am making bad choices on occasion. The decisions just happen and the not liking the decision is a thought.
Can you point it with your finger?
No!
Where exactly the finger will point?
There is nowhere to point to!
Stay with this sensation in the body and look around.
Where is that one that choose and have control over things?
It is an automatic reaction and the not liking the automatic reaction is a thought. It has no place in my body but there are physical sensations in my body when 'I' have the thought that 'I' didn’t like 'my' choice, like a sense of anxiety.
Do things need someone to choose and control or they are happening on their own?
They happen automatically! They don’t need active input, the choice seems to be made already, all on its’ own. They just seem to happen totally automatically.

Thank you again Luchana and I look forward to your reply.

Love Jason

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Luchana
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Re: freedom

Postby Luchana » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:54 am

Hi Jason,
Is there anything which doesn't go on automatic?

I don’t think there is.
I will ask you not to think, rather look. Because looking (and not thinking) is what brings the realisation.
Look in your direct experience right here, right now. Jason, remember the exercise with the colour of the socks? It was in the begining of our conversation. You can think about the colour or you can look towards your legs and see it.

It is an automatic reaction and the not liking the automatic reaction is a thought.
You repeat this several times in your replies, which implies that intellectualisation is taking part.
So again - my request is do not speculate with thinking.

Look in your direct experience and see if there is someone REALLY there?
What is this that writes "I' have the thought that 'I' didn’t like 'my' choice"
What is this that knows?
Where is its location precisely?
Who or what don't like the desicion been made?
Who or what sees that " the not liking the decision is a thought."

Forget to think about the questions, forget what thoughts say about the questions and just simply look for the answer.

Much love,

L.
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Luchana
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Re: freedom

Postby Luchana » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:04 am

Hi Jason,

are you still up for this? Don't want to push you, just wanted you to know that everyday posting keeps focus and it helps a lot. I can share this from my own experience.

If you want to see it for yourself you need to LOOK everyday and to write everyday.

It's ok if you are not able to continue for some reason. Please write and let me know.

Much love to you.

L.
Remember. You're dreaming.

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jasonc
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:39 am

Re: freedom

Postby jasonc » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:47 pm

Hi Luchana,

I'm sorry I haven't posted, I'm actually away for 2 weeks skiing until next Sunday. I'm ski mountaineering and have been both really tired and managed to get a vomiting virus last week so haven't had the energy or time to dedicate to a proper looking! I am back home on Sunday. My last post was during a recuperation day from the vomiting virus and wasn't the best of my efforts! I am absolutely dedicated to continuing with this and am very grateful to you and the time you are putting into helping me.

From Monday next week onwards I can spend as much time as is needed and post every day!

I have been trying not to think (which goes slightly against the grain for me!) and just observe what is happening. I can definitely confirm that my choices are all automatic. I have been struggling to look for someone being really there, partly because of being tired when I do get time to look and partly because, when I let my mind go blank and have no thoughts or at least ignore all thoughts, I don't observe anything! The world carries on and I sit and watch it. Choices make themselves and I observe.

I don't want to rush an answer to your questions and want to have a proper looking when I'm not tired so will continue to look (without thought or intellectualising) and post on Monday afternoon evening. I hope that is ok with you.

Many thanks to you and I hope you will forgive my taking so long. I have definitely NOT given up on this and I hope you won't give up on me!

Much love Jason x

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Luchana
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Re: freedom

Postby Luchana » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:20 pm

Hi Jason,

thanks for writing. I'm glad that you are willing to continue.
I am absolutely dedicated to continuing with this and am very grateful to you and the time you are putting into helping me.
You are more than welcome, it brings joy for me really and it has nothing to do with time.
My time is not more important than your freedom.

post on Monday afternoon evening. I hope that is ok with you.
It's perfectly fine for me :-)

Much love,

L.
Remember. You're dreaming.


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