freedom

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Luchana
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Re: freedom

Postby Luchana » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:28 am

Hi Jason and Happy New Year!
I don’t know where they come from, they seem to just appear. They don’t appear to go anywhere, they just come and then go.
You did a nice looking.

This is how we look at thoughts. Looking how they come and go, and observing the short gap between them. Noticing how the current thought is passing. And waiting for the next thought to come. It is just simple.
I am NOT in control of the thoughts that appear.
Keep looking at this as many times as you can during the day. What is the feeling that arises - disappointment, frustration, excitement, amazement, joy?

Now let’s do some more investigation in thought and especially thought about “me, “I”, self.

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened)...

Take you time and let me know what you find.

Much love to you.

L.
Remember. You're dreaming.

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jasonc
Posts: 26
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Re: freedom

Postby jasonc » Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:43 pm

Hi Luchana,

I'm sorry it has taken me a while to post a reply, I am away again and the last couple of days I have been busy packing and travelling. I didn't want to post a hasty reply.
I am NOT in control of the thoughts that appear.
Keep looking at this as many times as you can during the day. What is the feeling that arises - disappointment, frustration, excitement, amazement, joy?
There is little or no emotion around not controlling what thoughts come up. Very very mild annoyance/frustration/anxiety perhaps around not really having a clear emotion to report back to you. There is humour at my ridiculousness! I feel like I’m trying to herd cats in trying to do this. Overall I have no 'feeling' around whether or not I can control what thoughts appear.

It seems however that, if I’m in a happy mood I get happier thoughts, if I’m angry I get angry thoughts and so on. If I have a thought that elicits an emotion, the thoughts that follow after has similar emotional response attached to it.

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened)...

Take you time and let me know what you find.
I’ve done this several times now and it looks like I’m a total narcissist! I have a lot of thought about ‘self’ (6 or 7 in the space of 5 minutes) and pretty much no thoughts about anything else, perhaps one thought in three attempts about something not relating back to me in some way!

I can't always just be thinking about 'me' as I do have problem solving type tasks I have to do, however when doing this exercise it is pretty much all 'self' thoughts that come up.

I have been trying to be aware of the gap between thoughts, they seem quite blank but also filled with the thought 'I woodier when the next thought will come?' The pauses vary in length, they seem to get longer as I concentrate on them.

Many thanks to you, love Jason

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Luchana
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Re: freedom

Postby Luchana » Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:19 pm

Hi Jason,
I'm sorry it has taken me a while to post a reply, I am away again and the last couple of days I have been busy packing and travelling. I didn't want to post a hasty reply.
It's ok, I appreciate your willingness to deeg.
I’ve done this several times now and it looks like I’m a total narcissist! I have a lot of thought about ‘self’ (6 or 7 in the space of 5 minutes) and pretty much no thoughts about anything else, perhaps one thought in three attempts about something not relating back to me in some way!
You did a nice looking.
If you investigate this "other" thought is it possible that this one is also about the ‘me’ in a hidden way?
I can't always just be thinking about 'me' as I do have problem solving type tasks I have to do, however when doing this exercise it is pretty much all 'self' thoughts that come up.
Those “other” thoughts that “solve problems”. For whom precisely are they?
Whose problems do they solve?


Here is an interesting exercise.
Go and take two glasses and put inside different beverages (milk and water, or juice and water, or coffe and tea). Put these glasses in front of you. Look at them and chose one.


How the decision is made which glass to choose?
Is there a exact moment of choice or it happens automatically?
Do ‘you’ choose?
Can a chooser be located?


Be very vigilant, do as many times as it’s possible.
and write what you find.

Much love to you.

L.
Remember. You're dreaming.

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jasonc
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:39 am

Re: freedom

Postby jasonc » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:57 am

Hi Luchana,

Thanks for the exercise, it was very interesting!
If you investigate this "other" thought is it possible that this one is also about the ‘me’ in a hidden way?
The ‘other’ thought was related to self! ‘I’ was wondering how something was made. I am someone who designs/makes things!

Those “other” thoughts that “solve problems”. For whom precisely are they?
Whose problems do they solve?
I see what you mean, they are solving problems for ‘me’! They are ‘my’ problems!

Go and take two glasses and put inside different beverages (milk and water, or juice and water, or coffe and tea). Put these glasses in front of you. Look at them and chose one.

How the decision is made which glass to choose?
I've no idea how the decision is made. The decisions are automatic! Tea or coffee? I don’t need to ‘ponder’ and the answer comes as a ‘thought’, or even no thought if I’m thirsty I can be drinking before I realise the decision is made.
It seems that things are habitual, I have been eating breakfast in a hotel and looking at how I choose what I eat, its not the same as a choice of two things, but the choosing is instinctual, I don't think about it, it happens.
Is there a exact moment of choice or it happens automatically?
No, there is no moment of choice, it is automatic.
Do ‘you’ choose?
No, it is not a conscious choice, I just 'know' the answer.
Can a chooser be located?
No, it is like a thought appears with the answer or even more simple, I just act with the decision made without a conscious choice being made.

This is very interesting, I have been noticing my own behaviour lately. I do things ‘habitually’ and sometimes wonder why I’m doing them. Decisions as to how I behave or speak to people sometimes seem odd to me, ‘why did I do that?’ has occurred to me several times lately but things sometimes occur before ‘I’ realise what ‘I’m’ doing. It feels quite puzzling and bizarre! I have to be actively aware if I want to change my behaviour! It seems like this is related, automatic behaviour, automatic choice!

Thank you Luchana, I look forward to hearing from you.

Love Jason

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Luchana
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Re: freedom

Postby Luchana » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:43 am

Hi Jason,
I've no idea how the decision is made. The decisions are automatic!
Great. Is there anything which doesn't go on automatic?
No, there is no moment of choice, it is automatic.
You did a nice looking.
I have to be actively aware if I want to change my behaviour! It seems like this is related, automatic behaviour, automatic choice!
Let's pay attention to the "I" who needs to be aware. The one that seems to have controll and wanted to change the behaviour.

Where in the body is felt this one?
Can you point it with your finger?
Where exactly the finger will point?
Stay with this sensation in the body and look around.
Where is that one that choose and have control over things?
Do things need someone to choose and control or they are happening on their own?


You're doing really great Jason, keep looking, vigiliant right here in your direct experience.

Much love to you,

L.
Remember. You're dreaming.

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jasonc
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:39 am

Re: freedom

Postby jasonc » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:09 am

Hi Luchana,

Thanks for your last post.
Is there anything which doesn't go on automatic?
I don’t think there is. I can see choices being made and I can see me sometimes not liking the choices I make but I do all of this automatically.
Let's pay attention to the "I" who needs to be aware. The one that seems to have controll and wanted to change the behaviour.

Where in the body is felt this one?
This has been challenging to see! I can’t see any place where ‘I’ resides within me, I do feel sensations related to ‘thoughts’ that ‘I’ am making bad choices on occasion. The decisions just happen and the not liking the decision is a thought.
Can you point it with your finger?
No!
Where exactly the finger will point?
There is nowhere to point to!
Stay with this sensation in the body and look around.
Where is that one that choose and have control over things?
It is an automatic reaction and the not liking the automatic reaction is a thought. It has no place in my body but there are physical sensations in my body when 'I' have the thought that 'I' didn’t like 'my' choice, like a sense of anxiety.
Do things need someone to choose and control or they are happening on their own?
They happen automatically! They don’t need active input, the choice seems to be made already, all on its’ own. They just seem to happen totally automatically.

Thank you again Luchana and I look forward to your reply.

Love Jason

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Luchana
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Re: freedom

Postby Luchana » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:54 am

Hi Jason,
Is there anything which doesn't go on automatic?

I don’t think there is.
I will ask you not to think, rather look. Because looking (and not thinking) is what brings the realisation.
Look in your direct experience right here, right now. Jason, remember the exercise with the colour of the socks? It was in the begining of our conversation. You can think about the colour or you can look towards your legs and see it.

It is an automatic reaction and the not liking the automatic reaction is a thought.
You repeat this several times in your replies, which implies that intellectualisation is taking part.
So again - my request is do not speculate with thinking.

Look in your direct experience and see if there is someone REALLY there?
What is this that writes "I' have the thought that 'I' didn’t like 'my' choice"
What is this that knows?
Where is its location precisely?
Who or what don't like the desicion been made?
Who or what sees that " the not liking the decision is a thought."

Forget to think about the questions, forget what thoughts say about the questions and just simply look for the answer.

Much love,

L.
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Luchana
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Re: freedom

Postby Luchana » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:04 am

Hi Jason,

are you still up for this? Don't want to push you, just wanted you to know that everyday posting keeps focus and it helps a lot. I can share this from my own experience.

If you want to see it for yourself you need to LOOK everyday and to write everyday.

It's ok if you are not able to continue for some reason. Please write and let me know.

Much love to you.

L.
Remember. You're dreaming.

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jasonc
Posts: 26
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Re: freedom

Postby jasonc » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:47 pm

Hi Luchana,

I'm sorry I haven't posted, I'm actually away for 2 weeks skiing until next Sunday. I'm ski mountaineering and have been both really tired and managed to get a vomiting virus last week so haven't had the energy or time to dedicate to a proper looking! I am back home on Sunday. My last post was during a recuperation day from the vomiting virus and wasn't the best of my efforts! I am absolutely dedicated to continuing with this and am very grateful to you and the time you are putting into helping me.

From Monday next week onwards I can spend as much time as is needed and post every day!

I have been trying not to think (which goes slightly against the grain for me!) and just observe what is happening. I can definitely confirm that my choices are all automatic. I have been struggling to look for someone being really there, partly because of being tired when I do get time to look and partly because, when I let my mind go blank and have no thoughts or at least ignore all thoughts, I don't observe anything! The world carries on and I sit and watch it. Choices make themselves and I observe.

I don't want to rush an answer to your questions and want to have a proper looking when I'm not tired so will continue to look (without thought or intellectualising) and post on Monday afternoon evening. I hope that is ok with you.

Many thanks to you and I hope you will forgive my taking so long. I have definitely NOT given up on this and I hope you won't give up on me!

Much love Jason x

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Luchana
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Re: freedom

Postby Luchana » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:20 pm

Hi Jason,

thanks for writing. I'm glad that you are willing to continue.
I am absolutely dedicated to continuing with this and am very grateful to you and the time you are putting into helping me.
You are more than welcome, it brings joy for me really and it has nothing to do with time.
My time is not more important than your freedom.

post on Monday afternoon evening. I hope that is ok with you.
It's perfectly fine for me :-)

Much love,

L.
Remember. You're dreaming.

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jasonc
Posts: 26
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Re: freedom

Postby jasonc » Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:17 am

Hi Luchana,

I hope you will forgive me for not posting for three weeks. I got home and my boiler was broken, freezing flat and no hot water…. I have had a new boiler fitted now but got ill when I first got home and then when I was better had to deal with a backlog of other stuff… Anyway, enough excuses, I am now spending the day committed to ‘looking’.

Look in your direct experience and see if there is someone REALLY there?
In my direct experience, without thinking, just looking, I don't see 'someone' producing the thoughts or making the decisions or doing the typing, I see the whole thing sort of happening and I see myself doing a lot of things without any sort of 'input' from me. I just function and thoughts just come. I don't always like the thoughts but I can't stop them, I can ignore them and they quieten down a bit and I can let my mind go blank, but the thoughts are still there and will come back eventually. I don't think there is a little person inside me making this happen, I don't know how this happens.
What is this that writes "I' have the thought that 'I' didn’t like 'my' choice"
I don’t know the process by which the thoughts turn into written words. I just think the words and my fingers type it out. I’m not deciding to have these thoughts, they just come up. I don’t know what it is that does the writing. It sort of feels automatic. I just write, I have the thought and my fingers type out the words. The typing is automatic.
What is this that knows?
The knowing bit just is. It’s not like I need to turn it on or open up something. As for what is it that knows, I have no idea! I just sort of "know" things.
Where is its location precisely?
I have no idea! It’s not as if there is a part of me that I can see doing 'knowing', there are thoughts and I don't know where they come from.
Who or what don't like the desicion been made?
Again, I have no idea where this comes from, it’s not a who or what, it’s just a thought that comes up. There is no who or what attached to the thought, it’s a thought about the negative consequences of a decision.

Where is its location precisely?

It’s not as if there is a part of me that I can see pumping out dislike of decisions, I just feel uncomfortable about something and thoughts are coming to me about negative stuff to do with my decision.
Who or what sees that " the not liking the decision is a thought."
I do! Whatever I am. I gets thoughts coming up and I ‘see’ the thoughts. I’ve just had a thought come up regarding this answer, the thought is “I don’t think Luchana will like this answer, it looks like thinking not looking but it is what seems to happen!”. I didn't ask for a thought about this, it just floated in from somewhere, I didn't try to summon it and I couldn't stop it from appearing.

I let my mind go blank, stop thinking or don’t pay attention to the thoughts and wait. The thoughts come and the thoughts go but they are there. My mind can be silent for a while, no thoughts, but the thoughts come back eventually. I don’t know what I am and I don’t know how the thoughts come to be but it seems like I don't really control any of this, not the thoughts appearing, not the typing (and that does feel like it's completely automatic).


I am really sorry that I have not been posting, I have been in a bad way and busy but things are back on an even keel now. I am away next week from now until the 16th February but will be able to post every day from Monday the 17th February until Wednesday 8th April. I am then away from the 8th April until the 16th April. After this I am at home until the 1st May when I will be away until the 10th May. After that I have no commitments. Assuming I don’t get ill again I will be able to post every day apart from the days I’m away and probably a day either side of the trips. I hope this will be acceptable for you? I sincerely apologise for not posting for three weeks and I hope my new timescale is acceptable for you?

I am sorry, I feel like I’ve let you down! I hope you will persevere with me as I would really like to ‘get there’ with this.

Much love to you, Jason x

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Luchana
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Re: freedom

Postby Luchana » Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:21 pm

Hi Jason.

I'm glad that you back and are ready to explore further.
Don't worry - there's nothing to forgive you for, everything is perfect.

I've read your answers several times, will not going to comment all of them, but there is something in common.
I do! Whatever I am. I gets thoughts coming up and I ‘see’ the thoughts.

Ok, this "I, "whatever I am" - we cannot fight with it, because it is not real. We cannot fight with something unreal.
But we can see what is real.

Look at the screen in front of you.
Can you see it, touch it, point to it, taste it, smell it?

Now use with the same criteria to find where is this "I", which "do".
Where is this I, whatever is it?
Which gets thoughts?
Is it really exists in the way the screen exists?

I let my mind go blank, stop thinking or don’t pay attention to the thoughts and wait.
How do you "let your mind go blank"?
Is there a thing called "my mind" in reality?
And where is its location exactly?
In the center of the head? Or in the back, between the eyes or somewhere else?
Can you touch your mind?
Look at the screen again.
Can you see "my mind" in this way?

the thought is “I don’t think Luchana will like this answer, it looks like thinking not looking but it is what seems to happen!”
It is not about if I like your answers or no. Not at all.
Like you are afraid to give the wrong answers. But there are no wrong answers.
As though you are asking for the direction to the Eiffel Tower and I point, but you dont' tell me where exactly are you.
Please, feel free to write whatever is true for you, without thinking if I like it or no.

Looking forward to read from you soon.

Much love,

Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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jasonc
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Re: freedom

Postby jasonc » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:14 pm

Hi Luchana,

Thank you for your reply and further questions.
Look at the screen in front of you.
Can you see it, touch it, point to it, taste it, smell it?
Yes I can.
Now use with the same criteria to find where is this "I", which "do".
Where is this I, whatever is it?
I cannot see, touch, point to, taste or smell an “I”. There is no tangible “I”.
Which gets thoughts?
The thoughts are fairly constantly drifting about, coming and going, but I see no thing that they come to, come from or go to. I don’t see something that gets thought, I just see the thoughts coming and going.
Is it really exists in the way the screen exists?
No.
How do you "let your mind go blank"?
I ignore thoughts and focus on sensations.
Is there a thing called "my mind" in reality?
Like the “I”, it is conceptual not tangible, there is no mind I can see, touch, taste or smell.
And where is its location exactly?
In the center of the head? Or in the back, between the eyes or somewhere else?
It has no location, it is a concept not an object, it does not exist in real time and space.
Can you touch your mind?
No.
Look at the screen again.
Can you see "my mind" in this way?
No.

Thank you again and I look forward to hearing from you.

Much love Jason

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Luchana
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Re: freedom

Postby Luchana » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:34 pm

Hi Jason,
There is no tangible “I”
Like the “I”, it is conceptual not tangible,
Do you say that even that there is no tangible I or mind, there might be a non-tangible one?

"It has no location, it is a concept not an object, it does not exist in real time and space."
Can you really SEE this EXPERIENTIALLY that there is no such thing as mind, or rather it's just a logical conclusion that the mind is just a concept and does not exist in real time and space?
I just see the thoughts coming and going.

Ok. Can you see the door near you?
(don't relay to what thoughts bring about this exercise, just follow these pointings)

Now without turning your head or closing your eyes can you stop seeing it?
If YOU are seeing this door YOU just can stop seeing it. Can't you?
Can you just stop seeing the door?
Does the door need someone to see it?

Do the thoughts need someone to see them in order to appear and disappear?
Or they just appear and disappear?
What do you find?

Much love,

Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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jasonc
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:39 am

Re: freedom

Postby jasonc » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:41 am

Hi Luchana,

Thanks for your reply and questions.
Like the “I”, it is conceptual not tangible,
Do you say that even that there is no tangible I or mind, there might be a non-tangible one?
When we did the exercise about thoughts and how they are all related to me or I, it became clear that these are all just thoughts, “I” am just a thought. I saw that then and still see it. I and me and mind are just words to describe thoughts. I clearly see that. I and mind don’t exist anymore than the thoughts. Thoughts are not “real”. I and mind are not real. I see that.
"It has no location, it is a concept not an object, it does not exist in real time and space."
Can you really SEE this EXPERIENTIALLY that there is no such thing as mind, or rather it's just a logical conclusion that the mind is just a concept and does not exist in real time and space?
Yes, I can see this experientially. I use the word “mind” to describe the concept of observing the thoughts arising. I don’t know what language to use to describe these things other than that. “Mind”, “awareness”, “consciousness”, “seeing”, “thinking”?
Ok. Can you see the door near you?
(don't relay to what thoughts bring about this exercise, just follow these pointings)
Yes...
Now without turning your head or closing your eyes can you stop seeing it?
If YOU are seeing this door YOU just can stop seeing it. Can't you?
Can you just stop seeing the door?
Does the door need someone to see it?
No, I can’t! I can’t stop seeing the door and the door does not need someone to see it, it just is.
Do the thoughts need someone to see them in order to appear and disappear?
Or they just appear and disappear?
What do you find?
The thoughts, like the door, are there anyway. I can’t not see them and they don’t need me to see them to be there. Like the door, they just are!
I can clearly see the thoughts (all of which relate to “me”) are there anyway and always! This is a very powerful analogy, thank you.

Thanks for these questions and I look forward to your next post.

Much love to you, Jason


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