A hollow reed

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Alybug
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Alybug » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:54 pm

Hi Vivien,
Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
I see that thoughts arise in response to sensations felt in the body, in response to something that's happening around me, a random memory will arise (a thought) and thoughts will form in response to the memory, or a thought about the future will arise. They seem to appear randomly in response to present stimuli or randomly when it's thought about past and future. There is no originating "location" but simply arises in awareness.


In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
No, there is no final destination, they either hang around because I give them attention or they dissipate. They fade in and fade out. Some are sticky some are not.

Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?
No, thought simply happens, like breathing and heart beating.

warm regards,
Alison

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Vivien
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Vivien » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:43 am

Hi Alison,
I see that thoughts arise in response to sensations felt in the body, in response to something that's happening around me, a random memory will arise (a thought) and thoughts will form in response to the memory, or a thought about the future will arise. They seem to appear randomly in response to present stimuli or randomly when it's thought about past and future. There is no originating "location" but simply arises in awareness.
Can you actually SEE and OBSERVE in experience that thoughts are appearing in response to things, or is this rather a logical conclusion based on the notion that the thought came after a sensation or some other stimuli?

But is there an OBSERVABLE connection between thoughts and sensations, or whatever happens?
Or this connection is just ASSUMED by thoughts?
No, there is no final destination, they either hang around because I give them attention or they dissipate.
When you say that you can give attention to certain thoughts, then how do you do it?

What is the actual process of ‘giving attention’ to thoughts?
How do you perform this act?


It’s important that you write only about the observable experiential facts, without any speculation, imagination, theory or analogy. Just the pure facts.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Alybug
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Alybug » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:23 pm

Can you actually SEE and OBSERVE in experience that thoughts are appearing in response to things, or is this rather a logical conclusion based on the notion that the thought came after a sensation or some other stimuli?
True, I cannot see and observe that thoughts are a response to things, this is how it seems to appear. I have no proof that this is the case.
But is there an OBSERVABLE connection between thoughts and sensations, or whatever happens?
Or this connection is just ASSUMED by thoughts?
No there is no observable connection. It is assumed by thoughts. Something happens, then a thought arises about that something, then another thought arises thinking there is a connection. It is all just happening.
When you say that you can give attention to certain thoughts, then how do you do it?
hmm. I can tell you what it seems like. Certain thoughts arise which just come and go, then a thought might arise which says for example, "I forgot to meet a friend for lunch yesterday" which I then focus on, check my calendar, worry that I stood her up, etc etc. I observe that the thought "I forgot to meet my friend" is getting some focus or attention. How this happens I don't know, but something is happening where focus is given to a thought and action arises in response to a thought being focused on. So it appears that "I" focus on a thought, but perhaps a thought is focused on by something.
What is the actual process of ‘giving attention’ to thoughts?
How do you perform this act?
Giving attention to thoughts is a focusing on something that may give rise to more thoughts about that thought, a curiosity, or action based on the thought being focused on. How giving attention happens I do not know. There appears to be something deciding to give attention to something else.

"I" don't perform this act, it is something that appears to happen.

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Vivien
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Vivien » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:10 am

Hi Alison,
hmm. I can tell you what it seems like.
With this inquire it’s essential that we are stay with the evidential facts.

What we are trying to do here is to see the difference between reality (experience) and imagination (thought fiction).
Certain thoughts arise which just come and go, then a thought might arise which says for example, "I forgot to meet a friend for lunch yesterday" which I then focus on,….
….I observe that the thought "I forgot to meet my friend" is getting some focus or attention. How this happens I don't know, but something is happening where focus is given to a thought and action arises in response to a thought being focused on. So it appears that "I" focus on a thought, but perhaps a thought is focused on by something.
Please don’t try to figure this out intellectually, that won’t work. You have look at what is ACTUALLY happening in experience/reality.

This investigation is very simple. You won’t need your intellectual mind to figure out anything.

We are only ever looking for experiential facts of reality, but not intellectual knowledge about reality.

We are going to strip away as much intellectualization as possible. We are going down to bare bones. To the simplest simplicity.

Intellectual understanding is what moves the needle the wrong way on the dial. We're going to move it back to the simplest position possible.

You have to look at each questions with the eyes of a little child, who has no intellectual knowledge about how things work.
but perhaps a thought is focused on by something.
OK, let’s investigate this assumption. Please write only what you can actually SEE in experience.

Please think of a pink elephant, and keep the attention on it, and investigate:

Can you actually observe that a thought is focusing on another thought?

Is focusing your doing?
If yes, how do you do it exactly? Do you grab the hand of attention and point its focus on that image? Or HOW exactly?

Is there anything in experience performing the act of focusing on the image of a pink elephant?

The image of the pink elephant is there, but where is the focuser?

How giving attention happens I do not know. There appears to be something deciding to give attention to something else.
It APPEARS/SEEMS as if there were something deciding to give attention to something else.
But the appearing/seeming thing is not a real thing.

So, as you think of a pink elephant, what is it exactly that is deciding to keep holding onto and keep thinking this image?
Where is this decider?

And when the attention moves somewhere else, what makes attention to let go of the image?

Is it you? Or is there somebody else here, who makes that decision?
Or perhaps there is nobody or no one doing it, it just happens on its own?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Alybug
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Alybug » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:46 pm

Please think of a pink elephant, and keep the attention on it, and investigate:

Can you actually observe that a thought is focusing on another thought?
No, I cannot. It cannot be seen.

Is focusing your doing?
If yes, how do you do it exactly? Do you grab the hand of attention and point its focus on that image? Or HOW exactly?
No, not by me. apparent focusing happens.
Is there anything in experience performing the act of focusing on the image of a pink elephant?
No
The image of the pink elephant is there, but where is the focuser?
There is no observable focuser. It is assumed to be me but there is not evidence of that.
How giving attention happens I do not know. There appears to be something deciding to give attention to something else.
It APPEARS/SEEMS as if there were something deciding to give attention to something else.
But the appearing/seeming thing is not a real thing.

So, as you think of a pink elephant, what is it exactly that is deciding to keep holding onto and keep thinking this image?
Where is this decider?
I don't know what it is exactly that is deciding. I don't know where it is.
And when the attention moves somewhere else, what makes attention to let go of the image?
I don't know.
Is it you? Or is there somebody else here, who makes that decision?
There is no evidence that it is me or somebody else.
Or perhaps there is nobody or no one doing it, it just happens on its own?
It appears to happen on its own.

Alison

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Vivien
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Vivien » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:55 pm

Hi Alison,

You did a nice looking.

Try an experiment.

Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?
Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?
What is making thoughts to appear?
Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Alybug
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Alybug » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:08 am

Hi Viven,
Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?
I find that thoughts come in trains. One is linked to the former or a random thought jumps in. I don't create it, it just shows up.

Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?
Yes
What is making thoughts to appear?
I don't know for sure, I can only speculate.
Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?
No

Alison

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Vivien
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Vivien » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:36 am

Hi Alison,
I find that thoughts come in trains. One is linked to the former or a random thought jumps in. I don't create it, it just shows up.
When you say ‘I don’t create it’ – what does the word ‘I’ points to?
What is the ‘I’ that isn’t creating thoughts?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Alybug
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Alybug » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:33 am

When you say ‘I don’t create it’ – what does the word ‘I’ points to?
The idea of Alison
What is the ‘I’ that isn’t creating thoughts?
The 'I' that isnt creating thoughts is the idea of "me", of 'Alison '

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Vivien
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Vivien » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:05 am

Hi Alison,


Do you clearly see experientially that Alison or I is just an idea, nothing more, or is it rather an intellectual understanding?

Think of something that makes you happy.

Is there an Alison creating that emotion?
Is there a thought creating that emotion?
Or an image creating it?
What is creating it?

Is there an Alison feeling happy?
Did the experience of happiness last, or some other feeling came up after some time?
How did this change happen, did you choose another thought to make the happiness change to something else?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Alybug
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Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:39 am

Re: A hollow reed

Postby Alybug » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:47 am

Do you clearly see experientially that Alison or I is just an idea, nothing more, or is it rather an intellectual understanding?
Yes, I see that Alison is an idea. She was taught at the earliest age she was someone separate with an identify and that she was the doer of things and the thinker of thoughts. I can see that clearly although sometimes it is forgotten and it still "feels" like Alison is this body-mind thing.
Think of something that makes you happy.

Is there an Alison creating that emotion?
I see that a thought comes up and emotion rises. It "seems" as though this body-mind thing creates it.
Is there a thought creating that emotion?
It looks like the thinking of the thought leads to the emotion. I can't say if it "creates" emotion. That is impossible to verify.
Or an image creating it?
Again, it looks like it leads to the emotion but I can't say it is the "creator" of emotion
What is creating it?
I can't say for sure what creates it. It appears to arise in response to a thought.
Is there an Alison feeling happy?
There is a feeling of happiness, but not necessarily a thing called Alison feeling happy.

Did the experience of happiness last, or some other feeling came up after some time?
No it was fleeting.

How did this change happen, did you choose another thought to make the happiness change to something else?
No, a random thought occurred and the feeling left.

Alison

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Vivien
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Vivien » Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:20 am

Hi Alison,
Yes, I see that Alison is an idea. She was taught at the earliest age she was someone separate with an identify and that she was the doer of things and the thinker of thoughts. I can see that clearly although sometimes it is forgotten and it still "feels" like Alison is this body-mind thing.
What is it exactly that sees that Alison is an idea?

And what is it exactly that sometimes forgets that Alison is an idea?


Please look very thoroughly with all questions, and leave aside all speculations, theories, analogies or imagination. Just write about the raw facts.

Can you observe what you call ‘mind’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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