what is all this

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
putamen
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:06 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:29 pm

Hi Vivien,
How is it known that the eyes see?
Focus on the sensation labelled ‘eyes’. Is this sensation doing the seeing?
What is actually known right now about eyes, except thought about them?
The sensation labeled 'eyes' is not sensed as seeing, the seeing and the eye sensation aren't related.
Nothing is known about the eyes, and they aren't ever directly seen while seeing. Closing the eyelids and not seeing are only related by a thought and not experienced. Seeing occurs in dreams, and clearly not through the eyes of a me-avatar, but that's beyond the scope of direct experience.

Can you find anything behind the eyes that is seeing?
Is there anything that is seeing?
No, nothing is found, nothing is seeing, there is just seeing.
This is true for all other senses too, there are no ears or an eardrum when hearing, no mouth/tongue when tasting and no nose for smelling.
There is no brain involved in thinking either, but why don't I just keep this all to myself so that men in white coats don't come and take me away.


We discussed the body quite a bit, but there is still confusion about the role that the body plays beyond the self illusion, and what is experienced after the body dies, if anything. Seeing, hearing, tasting etc are not facilitated by the body, yet is the body required for experience to exist? There is something a body has that a rock does not. If so, that would imply that experience or existance is also an illusion. Not trying to get philosophical here, trying to clearly see what the body is and how it is related to experience. If this cannot be known, that's just fine.

Vivien, I'm not sure what the allowed scope of LU, I know your time is limited and there are people waiting for a guide, if possible I'd most definitely appreciate if you'd continue and guide me beyond the no-self realization.
Thank you so much
Ron

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 5461
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: what is all this

Postby Vivien » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:18 am

Hi Ron,
Vivien, I'm not sure what the allowed scope of LU, I know your time is limited and there are people waiting for a guide, if possible I'd most definitely appreciate if you'd continue and guide me beyond the no-self realization.
Yes, we can go further, but to be honest I’m not completely convinced that you’ve totally seen through the self-illusion (that how much of it is an intellectual understanding and how much of it is a deep experiential conviction).
We discussed the body quite a bit, but there is still confusion about the role that the body plays beyond the self illusion, and what is experienced after the body dies, if anything.
Can you see that it’s purely a philosophical question? How on earth would be able to know what happens after death? Do you see that no matter what we would say on this topic that would be only a conceptual speculation?

And where is the future death you are trying to figure out?
Does future exist?
Can you ever get out of this present moment and peak into the future?
Is anything exist outside of this present moment? Anything at all?
Seeing, hearing, tasting etc are not facilitated by the body, yet is the body required for experience to exist? There is something a body has that a rock does not. If so, that would imply that experience or existance is also an illusion. Not trying to get philosophical here, trying to clearly see what the body is and how it is related to experience.
Exactly these questions show me that there is something you are not seeing clearly. You are trying to grasp things intellectually. And it’s a sign that something is missing from your seeing. Something is not complete. As long as you are trying to find answers to these questions, you are not seeing clearly that these are just concepts/ideas which has nothing to do with reality. You are taking the content of thoughts as something real, and then you try to find the answer to those assumptions, conceptual ideas.

‘You are floating’ with ideas in story-land, without seeing the simplicity of what is.
Seeing through the self illusion is very simple, and when it’s clearly seen, really seen, all the above complex conceptual ideas falls away.
Since there is only what is in this very moment.
You will never ever got answers from anywhere else, only from what IS here now in this moment.
Actual answers will never come from thinking, but rather from seeing what IS.
It’s very simple.
But you make it complicated.
You are still going to story-land to speculations and concepts, instead of staying with the simplicity of what is.
You are searching for answers in thinking, rather than seeing what is available, what is here in this very moment.
No, nothing is found, nothing is seeing, there is just seeing.
Look at whatever is in front of you.

Now zoom back in and try to find the act of seeing. Is there an actual act of seeing going on, or is there just what’s seen (color)?
Can the act of seeing be experienced at all?
Or only color can be experienced?

Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience (the seen)?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
putamen
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:06 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:53 am

Hi Vivien,
Can you see that it’s purely a philosophical question? How on earth would be able to know what happens after death? Do you see that no matter what we would say on this topic that would be only a conceptual speculation?
Yes, it would be pure speculation.
And where is the future death you are trying to figure out?
Does future exist?
Can you ever get out of this present moment and peak into the future?
Is anything exist outside of this present moment? Anything at all?
Nothing exists outside the present moment, clearly not.

You are still going to story-land to speculations and concepts, instead of staying with the simplicity of what is.
You are searching for answers in thinking, rather than seeing what is available, what is here in this very moment.
Yes, the simplicity of 'what is' removed away the desire to figure out "who I am" and "what for" and even "how is this happening", but these understanding left an apparent dichotomy between the simple understanding and what is observed day to day. Yes, thoughts and thinking takes place regarding how it all fits, it is usually realized too. Some curiosity exists even if seeking does not. Perhaps it will subside as well, it already has considerably.

Is there an actual act of seeing going on, or is there just what’s seen (color)?
Can the act of seeing be experienced at all?
Or only color can be experienced?
An act of seeing is not experienced, there is just the seen. Without processing (which is a form of thinking), the seen lacks depth/dimension, what is seen is just a flat pallet of colors and shades (which are essentially colors yes).
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience (the seen)?
There is only experience, or the "knowing of the experience", it's not possible to separate an experience from the knowing of it - they are one and the same. We can say there is only the seen, only the heard etc.

Ron

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 5461
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: what is all this

Postby Vivien » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:15 am

You’ve replied very quickly again. It’s simply not possible to investigate something deeply and thoroughly in such short time.
My questions are not something to look at once or twice, not even 10 times, you have look again at least 50, but rather 100 times a day, as often as possible (even if for 10 seconds each).

Looking has to become a habit, and it has to happen in the midst of the business of life. While you work, walk, shower, eat, do shopping, washing your hands, before falling asleep, etc. Otherwise, it cannot penetrate deep enough. And probably it’s depth what is missing for you.

So if you want to go deeper, you have to change the depth of your looking.

Can we agree on these that you won’t reply back to without looking at least 50 times a question, even when the answer seem to be pretty clear?

Please go back to the previous questions, and really-really look. And come back only after a sufficient depth of looking.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
putamen
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:06 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:29 pm

Hi vivien,
Can we agree on these that you won’t reply back to without looking at least 50 times a question, even when the answer seem to be pretty clear?
You got it.

Look at whatever is in front of you.
Now zoom back in and try to find the act of seeing. Is there an actual act of seeing going on, or is there just what’s seen (color)?
There is no act of seeing, seeing requires no effort, it's just the seen. There is habitual and seamless activity of breaking down and processing - noticing shapes and tagging them, simulating depths, but once relaxed, the picture gets "flattened" and there is clearly only what's seen - just color!

Can the act of seeing be experienced at all?
Or only color can be experienced?
Only color can be directly experienced, there is no "act of seeing" experience. (I found it even simpler to notice when paying attention to "peripheral vision" or blurry seeing).

Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience (the seen)?
There is no "awareness" AND experience, it's not possible to have an experience without awareness to the experience, and there is no free floating "awareness" without an experience either. In other words, the knowing of the seen is just "the seen".

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 5461
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: what is all this

Postby Vivien » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:49 am

Hi Ron,

Now we move onto the notion of hearing. Please be very thorough.

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as 'what can be heard'.

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? A pair of ears?
Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?
What do you find?

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Can even be hearing be found? Or there is only sound?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
putamen
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:06 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:10 pm

Hi Vivien,
In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
Only 'what can be heard' is found.

Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
I cannot find what is doing the hearing, only what is heard.

An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? A pair of ears?
Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?
What do you find?
I find no ears/eardrums, no brain, it's only 'what can be heard', also the concept of sound at a distance coming from a certain direction is a thought/processed/imagined layer.

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
A hearer cannot be found, it's a concept or a thought.

Can even be hearing be found? Or there is only sound?
There is only sound.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 5461
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: what is all this

Postby Vivien » Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:03 am

Hi Ron,

Here is another exercise to see if the body is the feeler of sensations.
With eyes closed, put one of the hands on a desk or a table. Pay attention only to the pure sensation.

Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that the hand is doing the touching?

Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a hand (subject) that touching the table (object), or is there only the sensation?

When both verbal and visual thoughts are ignored is there a ‘hand’ or a ‘table’ at all?

How many sensations are there? Is there one for the ‘hand’ and another one for the ‘table’?

What is FEELING the sensation?
Where is the FEELER of sensations?
Can an ‘INHERENT FEELER’ be found?

Would anything that is suggested as the ‘feeler’, be anything other than a concept/idea and/or a mislabelled sensation?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
putamen
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:06 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:55 pm

Hi Vivien,
Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that the hand is doing the touching?
Not at all.
Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a hand (subject) that touching the table (object), or is there only the sensation?
No hand and no table can be experienced.
When both verbal and visual thoughts are ignored is there a ‘hand’ or a ‘table’ at all?
Nope.
How many sensations are there? Is there one for the ‘hand’ and another one for the ‘table’?
There is just one sensation.
What is FEELING the sensation?
Where is the FEELER of sensations?
Can an ‘INHERENT FEELER’ be found?
There is nobody and no one found feeling the sensation. No feeler.
Would anything that is suggested as the ‘feeler’, be anything other than a concept/idea and/or a mislabelled sensation?
A 'feeler' would be a concept/idea, in direct experience there is just sensation, no source and no knower.

Thanks
Ron

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 5461
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: what is all this

Postby Vivien » Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:39 am

Hi Ron,

Please make sure that your replies are coming from looking at the raw experience and not from thinking about it. Really look.

Does the body experiences sensations, colours, sounds, tastes, smells, thoughts, OR the body is just another object being experienced?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
putamen
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:06 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:32 pm

Hi Vivien,
Does the body experiences sensations, colours, sounds, tastes, smells, thoughts, OR the body is just another object being experienced?
Each of the senses was looked at multiple time during the day. In all cases the body is neither experienced nor is the body experiencing or a conduit to experience.
There is a body in common/day-to-day experience and we could say that the body is an object in experience, however this is not a true observation, the body cannot be experienced with direct observation. There is no body outside of thoughts/concepts/beliefs.

What experiences?
Nothing can be found experiencing, there is only experience.

What thinks?
A thinker is not known, thoughts appear and their contents is known, they vanish and their contents is obliviated from experience. Thoughts often come in streams of related thoughts, where the contents of one refers to another, but despite the appearance of a thinking process, there is no control or choice or a coherent process. In experience there is no receiver of thoughts and no mind 'cooking up' the thoughts (both the 'mind' and the 'receiver' are themselves mere thoughts). There is just knowing of thoughts.

What does?
That's a great question. Something like "making an omelet" is not something that can be directly observed without concepts and thoughts, there are thousands of assumptions at every step of making an omelet.. In direct observation nothing is done, things continually change and move, but it's akin to a flow, not a doing, like water flows in a stream, like wind blowing. Colors move around, sounds appear, change and disappear. Sensations have a vibrational character, thoughts come and go, smells arise and dissipate. Nothing does, this is all uncontrolled, effortless, happening.

What is aware?
There is the experience of colors, sounds, thoughts, tastes, smells and sensations. Nothing that is called 'awareness' can be experienced outside the knowing these experiences. To clarify, the knowing of the experience is one with the experience, there is no knowing separate from experience. Nothing is aware outside experience, there is no awareness.

I wanted to add that since our thread on Dec 2, when your questions collapsed the 'awareness' and 'presence' belief, there is a noticeable further drop in seeking, and even the desire to figure out how life unfolds is a baseline positive curiosity, not bothersome or obsessive. Happy to report that it's not due to depression either :), the time I used to spend seeking is spent as observation, but with much added clarity.

Ron

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 5461
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: what is all this

Postby Vivien » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:34 am

Hi Ron,

You did a nice looking.
I wanted to add that since our thread on Dec 2, when your questions collapsed the 'awareness' and 'presence' belief, there is a noticeable further drop in seeking, and even the desire to figure out how life unfolds is a baseline positive curiosity, not bothersome or obsessive. Happy to report that it's not due to depression either :), the time I used to spend seeking is spent as observation, but with much added clarity.
Beautiful :)

With the following questions, please look again. Although you have seen it a lot, but still look.

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations ?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
putamen
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:06 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:52 pm

Hi Vivien,
I'd like to take a few days to look carefully again before I reply.
Could you please clarify one of your questions? The way it is phrased makes it sound like a philosophical questions that I cannot answer:
Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?
Thanks much
Ron

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 5461
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: what is all this

Postby Vivien » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:49 pm

Hi Ron,

Are colors, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations, thoughts are arising and happening to a self/me?
Are these experienced by a self?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
putamen
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:06 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:01 am

Hi Vivien,
Clearity does not require further hesitation, thoughts come and tell stories of doubt, but there is nothing there anymore that can obscure the truth when looked.
Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?
No, only experience.
Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?
No, there is nothing here that controls what happens; there is no doer either.
Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?
No, decisions aren't being made.
Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?
No, clearly not.
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations ?
Yes, the body is a label that tags sensations as belonging to a body/self.

Are colors, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations, thoughts are arising and happening to a self/me?
Are these experienced by a self?
No, the body, or a self cannot be experienced in any of these experiences!

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?
No, a self needs to be separated by creating a division between what's conceived as 'inside' and the rest of the world which is 'outside'. When adhering to direct experience, there is no division, no self and objects in any experience. There is only experience.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?
The self is consistently not found, but thoughts and sensations labeled as self are; they are seen for their illusory contents each time. There is a realization (not a mere intellectual conclusion) that truth is only what can be experienced, everything else that is above this naked and intimate experience is labeling, learned, assumed, approximated, a pointer at best. The color blue is not truth, there is just 'that' that is experienced when experiencing a blue something. Nothing is known other than color, sensations, sounds, tastes, smells and thoughts.

A short experiencing during the collapse of the false sense of self has been experienced as well and provided a strong experiential realization of a truth that cannot be denied and has been clearly observed. There were a number of past experiences of pristine clarity and stillness, with no thoughts and no labeling (I used to call them "no mind"), but only now these experiences are realized for what they were and the self that was simply absent from them, in these moments there was just what is without labels.

There is no doubt that there is no self other than a mental fabrication - layers and clusters of thoughts.

All that would not have been realized without your dedicated time and superb guidance Vivien, and without this amazing LU program. Thank you once again.
Ron


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests