what is all this

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
putamen
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:06 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:29 pm

Hi Vivien,
How is it known that the eyes see?
Focus on the sensation labelled ‘eyes’. Is this sensation doing the seeing?
What is actually known right now about eyes, except thought about them?
The sensation labeled 'eyes' is not sensed as seeing, the seeing and the eye sensation aren't related.
Nothing is known about the eyes, and they aren't ever directly seen while seeing. Closing the eyelids and not seeing are only related by a thought and not experienced. Seeing occurs in dreams, and clearly not through the eyes of a me-avatar, but that's beyond the scope of direct experience.

Can you find anything behind the eyes that is seeing?
Is there anything that is seeing?
No, nothing is found, nothing is seeing, there is just seeing.
This is true for all other senses too, there are no ears or an eardrum when hearing, no mouth/tongue when tasting and no nose for smelling.
There is no brain involved in thinking either, but why don't I just keep this all to myself so that men in white coats don't come and take me away.


We discussed the body quite a bit, but there is still confusion about the role that the body plays beyond the self illusion, and what is experienced after the body dies, if anything. Seeing, hearing, tasting etc are not facilitated by the body, yet is the body required for experience to exist? There is something a body has that a rock does not. If so, that would imply that experience or existance is also an illusion. Not trying to get philosophical here, trying to clearly see what the body is and how it is related to experience. If this cannot be known, that's just fine.

Vivien, I'm not sure what the allowed scope of LU, I know your time is limited and there are people waiting for a guide, if possible I'd most definitely appreciate if you'd continue and guide me beyond the no-self realization.
Thank you so much
Ron

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4340
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: what is all this

Postby Vivien » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:18 am

Hi Ron,
Vivien, I'm not sure what the allowed scope of LU, I know your time is limited and there are people waiting for a guide, if possible I'd most definitely appreciate if you'd continue and guide me beyond the no-self realization.
Yes, we can go further, but to be honest I’m not completely convinced that you’ve totally seen through the self-illusion (that how much of it is an intellectual understanding and how much of it is a deep experiential conviction).
We discussed the body quite a bit, but there is still confusion about the role that the body plays beyond the self illusion, and what is experienced after the body dies, if anything.
Can you see that it’s purely a philosophical question? How on earth would be able to know what happens after death? Do you see that no matter what we would say on this topic that would be only a conceptual speculation?

And where is the future death you are trying to figure out?
Does future exist?
Can you ever get out of this present moment and peak into the future?
Is anything exist outside of this present moment? Anything at all?
Seeing, hearing, tasting etc are not facilitated by the body, yet is the body required for experience to exist? There is something a body has that a rock does not. If so, that would imply that experience or existance is also an illusion. Not trying to get philosophical here, trying to clearly see what the body is and how it is related to experience.
Exactly these questions show me that there is something you are not seeing clearly. You are trying to grasp things intellectually. And it’s a sign that something is missing from your seeing. Something is not complete. As long as you are trying to find answers to these questions, you are not seeing clearly that these are just concepts/ideas which has nothing to do with reality. You are taking the content of thoughts as something real, and then you try to find the answer to those assumptions, conceptual ideas.

‘You are floating’ with ideas in story-land, without seeing the simplicity of what is.
Seeing through the self illusion is very simple, and when it’s clearly seen, really seen, all the above complex conceptual ideas falls away.
Since there is only what is in this very moment.
You will never ever got answers from anywhere else, only from what IS here now in this moment.
Actual answers will never come from thinking, but rather from seeing what IS.
It’s very simple.
But you make it complicated.
You are still going to story-land to speculations and concepts, instead of staying with the simplicity of what is.
You are searching for answers in thinking, rather than seeing what is available, what is here in this very moment.
No, nothing is found, nothing is seeing, there is just seeing.
Look at whatever is in front of you.

Now zoom back in and try to find the act of seeing. Is there an actual act of seeing going on, or is there just what’s seen (color)?
Can the act of seeing be experienced at all?
Or only color can be experienced?

Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience (the seen)?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
putamen
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:06 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:53 am

Hi Vivien,
Can you see that it’s purely a philosophical question? How on earth would be able to know what happens after death? Do you see that no matter what we would say on this topic that would be only a conceptual speculation?
Yes, it would be pure speculation.
And where is the future death you are trying to figure out?
Does future exist?
Can you ever get out of this present moment and peak into the future?
Is anything exist outside of this present moment? Anything at all?
Nothing exists outside the present moment, clearly not.

You are still going to story-land to speculations and concepts, instead of staying with the simplicity of what is.
You are searching for answers in thinking, rather than seeing what is available, what is here in this very moment.
Yes, the simplicity of 'what is' removed away the desire to figure out "who I am" and "what for" and even "how is this happening", but these understanding left an apparent dichotomy between the simple understanding and what is observed day to day. Yes, thoughts and thinking takes place regarding how it all fits, it is usually realized too. Some curiosity exists even if seeking does not. Perhaps it will subside as well, it already has considerably.

Is there an actual act of seeing going on, or is there just what’s seen (color)?
Can the act of seeing be experienced at all?
Or only color can be experienced?
An act of seeing is not experienced, there is just the seen. Without processing (which is a form of thinking), the seen lacks depth/dimension, what is seen is just a flat pallet of colors and shades (which are essentially colors yes).
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience (the seen)?
There is only experience, or the "knowing of the experience", it's not possible to separate an experience from the knowing of it - they are one and the same. We can say there is only the seen, only the heard etc.

Ron

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4340
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: what is all this

Postby Vivien » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:15 am

You’ve replied very quickly again. It’s simply not possible to investigate something deeply and thoroughly in such short time.
My questions are not something to look at once or twice, not even 10 times, you have look again at least 50, but rather 100 times a day, as often as possible (even if for 10 seconds each).

Looking has to become a habit, and it has to happen in the midst of the business of life. While you work, walk, shower, eat, do shopping, washing your hands, before falling asleep, etc. Otherwise, it cannot penetrate deep enough. And probably it’s depth what is missing for you.

So if you want to go deeper, you have to change the depth of your looking.

Can we agree on these that you won’t reply back to without looking at least 50 times a question, even when the answer seem to be pretty clear?

Please go back to the previous questions, and really-really look. And come back only after a sufficient depth of looking.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
putamen
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:06 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:29 pm

Hi vivien,
Can we agree on these that you won’t reply back to without looking at least 50 times a question, even when the answer seem to be pretty clear?
You got it.

Look at whatever is in front of you.
Now zoom back in and try to find the act of seeing. Is there an actual act of seeing going on, or is there just what’s seen (color)?
There is no act of seeing, seeing requires no effort, it's just the seen. There is habitual and seamless activity of breaking down and processing - noticing shapes and tagging them, simulating depths, but once relaxed, the picture gets "flattened" and there is clearly only what's seen - just color!

Can the act of seeing be experienced at all?
Or only color can be experienced?
Only color can be directly experienced, there is no "act of seeing" experience. (I found it even simpler to notice when paying attention to "peripheral vision" or blurry seeing).

Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience (the seen)?
There is no "awareness" AND experience, it's not possible to have an experience without awareness to the experience, and there is no free floating "awareness" without an experience either. In other words, the knowing of the seen is just "the seen".

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4340
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: what is all this

Postby Vivien » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:49 am

Hi Ron,

Now we move onto the notion of hearing. Please be very thorough.

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as 'what can be heard'.

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? A pair of ears?
Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?
What do you find?

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Can even be hearing be found? Or there is only sound?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests