Looking for the Truth

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 5035
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Looking for the Truth

Postby Vivien » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:40 am

Hi Grace,

You did an excellent looking.
And there wasn't anything/anybody inside that doing the action or experiencing the sound, smell, taste or sensations. However, outside the exercise, when something is seen, heard etc., often there were feelings that I saw or I heard, but when remembered to look, it was only the thought saying such things as "I saw that', I heard that' etc.
It’s important to mention that we are not trying to change how things are experienced. We are not trying to make the illusion of “I see, I hear” to go away.

Rather we are investigating if these are assumptions can stand up to scrutiny. To see in experience that this is just an illusion. But the illusion doesn’t have to go away. It’s enough to see if for what it is.

Or have you expected for the illusion to go away?
., often there were feelings that I saw or I heard
Please describe me the FEELING of “I saw”, “I heard” as precisely as you can, but without using any imagination, analogy, theory or logical conclusions. Just the pure, raw feeling of it.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
LostMe
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:26 am

Re: Looking for the Truth

Postby LostMe » Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:33 pm

Thank you Vivien.
It’s important to mention that we are not trying to change how things are experienced. We are not trying to make the illusion of “I see, I hear” to go away.
Rather we are investigating if these are assumptions can stand up to scrutiny. To see in experience that this is just an illusion. But the illusion doesn’t have to go away. It’s enough to see it for what it is.

Or have you expected for the illusion to go away?
Not really. I gave up expectations as you mentioned that I wouldn't know before hand how it would be exactly. But sometimes those thoughts arise "It will be like this, like that etc" (can't control the thoughts :) ) It's clear now. Thanks for the explanation.
often there were feelings that I saw or I heard
Please describe me the FEELING of “I saw”, “I heard” as precisely as you can, but without using any imagination, analogy, theory or logical conclusions. Just the pure, raw feeling of it.
Actually, I can't directly experience any such raw feelings of "I saw" or "I heard". There is only feeling of the liveliness (sensations of breathing, heart beat etc) and the thoughts containing the ideas such as "I saw", I heard" etc. Nothing more than that in real experience.

I keep looking into this. I want to remember to inquire every occurrence of "I did", but can't. Nobody there having a control over it. Sometimes remember, sometimes not. Accepting the way it is.
Thank you.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 5035
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Looking for the Truth

Postby Vivien » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:35 am

Hi Grace,
Actually, I can't directly experience any such raw feelings of "I saw" or "I heard". There is only feeling of the liveliness (sensations of breathing, heart beat etc) and the thoughts containing the ideas such as "I saw", I heard" etc. Nothing more than that in real experience.
So can you see clearly, without any doubt, that the ‘feeling of I see, I hear’ is not a feeling at all?
That there are only sensations + the thought “I see, I hear’?


Let’s look again into the belief of “I see”.

Look at whatever is in front of you.

How is it known that the eyes see?

Focus on the sensation labelled ‘eyes’. Is this sensation doing the seeing?
What is actually known right now about eyes, except thought about them?

Can you find anything behind the eyes that is seeing?
Is there anything that is seeing or there is only the seen?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
LostMe
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:26 am

Re: Looking for the Truth

Postby LostMe » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Hi Vivien,
So can you see clearly, without any doubt, that the ‘feeling of I see, I hear’ is not a feeling at all? 
Yes, it is clear without any doubt that the 'feeling of I see' is not a raw experience, rather an illusion created by thoughts
That there are only sensations + the thought “I see, I hear’?
Yes, certainly
Let’s look again into the belief of “I see”.
Look at whatever is in front of you.
How is it known that the eyes see?
When I see something there isn't any knowing that 'the eyes see'. Only the seen become known. Can't experience how the seeing happens.
Focus on the sensation labelled ‘eyes’. Is this sensation doing the seeing?
The sensation which is labeled 'eyes' are just some movements in that area/space and it is constantly changing. Sensations couldn't do seeing or anything else.
What is actually known right now about eyes, except thought about them?
 I do not know about the eyes directly. I can only experience the sensations of some movements and only the thoughts say it is the eye that moves and blinks.
Can you find anything behind the eyes that is seeing?
No, I can't find anything behind the eyes that is seeing. I can't experience the seeing process, I can only become know about the seen.
Is there anything that is seeing or there is only the seen?
There is a knowing (awareness) about what is seen. (The seen thing become known)
Thank you

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 5035
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Looking for the Truth

Postby Vivien » Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:09 am

Hi Grace,
There is a knowing (awareness) about what is seen. (The seen thing become known)
HOW do you know exactly that the seen thing become known?

Is there a knower/awareness in the background waiting for a ‘thing’ to appear and be aware of it/know it?

How is this knowing/awareness is perceived?
As a thought? Sensation? Imagination?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
LostMe
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:26 am

Re: Looking for the Truth

Postby LostMe » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:02 pm

Hi Vivien,
There is a knowing (awareness) about what is seen. (The seen thing become known)
HOW do you know exactly that the seen thing become known?
In the direct experience there is only the seen. Then it is a thought that says "I know".
Is there a knower/awareness in the background waiting for a ‘thing’ to appear and be aware of it/know it?
No, clearly, there is nothing in a background waiting for anything to appear and be aware of it.
How is this knowing/awareness is perceived?
As a thought? Sensation? Imagination?
Knowing is perceived as a thought.

Thank you.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 5035
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Looking for the Truth

Postby Vivien » Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:11 am

Hi Grace,
Knowing is perceived as a thought.
A thought ‘I know’ is NOT the experience of ‘knowing’, but the experience of the arising of a thought.
Can you see this?

So there are thoughts ABOUT ‘knowing’, but is there an actual separate knower/knowing going on?

Does awareness or a knower exist other than an idea/concept?

How do you feel about this investigation?
Is there something that is not totally clear experientially and you would like to look at?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
LostMe
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:26 am

Re: Looking for the Truth

Postby LostMe » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:03 pm

Hi Vivien,
Knowing is perceived as a thought.
A thought ‘I know’ is NOT the experience of ‘knowing’, but the experience of the arising of a thought.
Can you see this?
Yes, "I know", "I saw something", "I heard something" are just thoughts that arise after the actual experience of the seen, heard, thought etc.
So there are thoughts ABOUT ‘knowing’, but is there an actual separate knower/knowing going on?
I keep looking and looking "Who is the one that knows?", but nothing was found that can be called a knower or any process that can be called knowing in direct experience. All these were thought contents. Only found thoughts, nothing else.
Does awareness or a knower exist other than an idea/concept?
Awareness or knower exist only in ideas/concepts created by thoughts. 
How do you feel about this investigation? 
I assume you are asking in general. I feel it's great; when 'I think' about how far I have come along doing this investigation and seeing through lot of illusions, dispelling lot of beliefs, I feel happy about it, rest of the times feel neutral. 

Once seen through the dilution of thoughts, a big part of the whole illusion fell apart. Prior to this investigation, I have watched thoughts very seriously (identified or categorized them as good or bad etc), but habitually believed them, so missed the whole point. Believed the story they tell about "me" and stories about "others" and I lived the story. Same with the sensations, watched the sensations routinely, but believed the thoughts saying that there was "I" watching it and sensations were happening to/in "me", missed the point again.  Because, I didn't know what/how to look, instead believed the "feelings" which were disguised thoughts.

 Only you guided me to look for/at direct experience which is not contaminated by thoughts. I am so grateful for your guidance. Until you volunteered to guide me, I never had the privilege of getting guidance or advise from somebody who has seen through the illusion. Thank you, Vivien.
Is there something that is not totally clear experientially and you would like to look at?
When looking is happening, everything is clear, but looking doesn't happen all the time. It is automatic and I can't make it happen every minute. When it happens it happens. It's ok and I accept it.

What other aspects do you suggest to look at this point to shed some light on dark corners? Perhaps, we can look at the illusion of "body is me/I am the body". I have been looking and it is always the liveliness (ever changing body sensations) and thoughts saying "This is me", but there is no "me" found in direct experience, not at all. 
Cause and effect: It is only apparently so, but couldn't see in direct experience. Is there a way to investigate it, if so should I look at it with your guidance?
Thank you.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 5035
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Looking for the Truth

Postby Vivien » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:56 am

Hi Grace,
Only you guided me to look for/at direct experience which is not contaminated by thoughts. I am so grateful for your guidance. Until you volunteered to guide me, I never had the privilege of getting guidance or advise from somebody who has seen through the illusion. Thank you, Vivien.
You are most welcome :)
What other aspects do you suggest to look at this point to shed some light on dark corners? Perhaps, we can look at the illusion of "body is me/I am the body". I have been looking and it is always the liveliness (ever changing body sensations) and thoughts saying "This is me", but there is no "me" found in direct experience, not at all.
Cause and effect: It is only apparently so, but couldn't see in direct experience. Is there a way to investigate it, if so should I look at it with your guidance?
All right, let’s start with the body.

The illusion of the self is not just simply coming from thoughts, but also from the belief that “I am the body” or “I have a body” or that this or that sensation is ‘me’ or the location of the ‘me’, or that this or that sensation is happening to ‘me’. So the thought label ‘this is me’ and the appearing sensations are welded together, creating the seeming ‘sense of self’.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on verbal or visual thoughts:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
LostMe
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:26 am

Re: Looking for the Truth

Postby LostMe » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:30 pm

Hi Vivien,
All right, let’s start with the body.

The illusion of the self is not just simply coming from thoughts, but also from the belief that “I am the body” or “I have a body” or that this or that sensation is ‘me’ or the location of the ‘me’, or that this or that sensation is happening to ‘me’. So the thought label ‘this is me’ and the appearing sensations are welded together, creating the seeming ‘sense of self’.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. 
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on verbal or visual thoughts:
 
(I assume, except the last two questions, other exercises are with closed eyes)
Can it be known how tall the body is?
No, I couldn't experientially know how tall the body is at all. 
Does the body have a weight or volume?
No, I couldn't experience a weight or volume of the body. Some actual sensations get labeled as "feeling heavy' by thoughts.
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form? 
No, I couldn't experience the shape of the body.  When sensations were experienced there was no location to it at raw level. Then an image thought indicates which part of the body it is. 
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? 
No, a boundary could not be experienced, when sensations were experienced image thoughts arose showing it was the clothing touching the body and it was the boundary.
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
 No, a boundary between the body and the chair could not be experienced, sensations on the bottom were experienced and there was an image thought showing that it was the bottom and the chair surface and boundary. 
Is there an inside or an outside? 
No, Even though the sensations are experienced, their location can't be experienced as to inside or on the surface. There was no separation as inside or outside experientially. 
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
 There is no inside in actual experience. Only thoughts label it as inside my body
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly? 
There is no outside in actual experience. Only thoughts label it as outside of my body
_________________
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? 
The word label 'body' refers to sensations + thoughts (images and words).
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
When I see in the mirror, the body is actually experienced as seeing a picture. When looking directly, only some part of the body is seen.  Sounds from the body are experienced, thoughts label it as the sound of talking, breathing and sneezing.  Sensations are experienced when touched with the hands. When washing hands, hands are seen, hands touched by each other and touch of water is experienced as sensations. When taking a shower, the sensations on the body is experienced and image thoughts arise about the body, word thoughts labels water is warm or cold. 
 
When siting and typing, hands are seen, sensations are experienced, thoughts saying about fingers touching the keys, image of legs arise with other thoughts labeling it as vibrations.
When laying down on the bed, sensations are experienced and image thoughts give the feeling of one side of the body and the bed touching it.When walking, sensations are experienced and the image thoughts show that it is in the feet and wind blowing on the body.When eating, taste sensations are experienced. Thoughts label it as on the tongue.

Each time only a part of the body is actually experienced, I could not actually experience the whole body at any one time. Actual experience is supplemented with Image thoughts and labels giving the feeling of a whole body which is not a direct experience. Some other occasions when lot of other thoughts arise, the body is not experienced as such. It happened when driving.
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.
Thank you for the exercise, it was helpful. I keep experiencing the body going on.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 5035
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Looking for the Truth

Postby Vivien » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:55 pm

Hi Grace,
Each time only a part of the body is actually experienced, I could not actually experience the whole body at any one time. Actual experience is supplemented with Image thoughts and labels giving the feeling of a whole body which is not a direct experience. Some other occasions when lot of other thoughts arise, the body is not experienced as such. It happened when driving.
Yes, you did a beautiful looking :)

Let’s look into this a bit more.

Close your eyes, and scan through the body. Look for every sensation that is present right now. You will find, that as you scan the body, a visual thought ‘shows’ the location of attention, so to speak.

If you look very carefully, you’ll find that there are some parts where the sensations are really strong, but there are other areas where there is hardly any sensation going on, or even nothing. So even the sensations what are labelled as ‘body’ cannot be experienced as a whole. I mean you cannot feel all ‘parts’ of the body at the same time. There is only a constructed visual thought and with the label ‘body’, and the belief that the body is a whole unit, always present, always available. But this cannot be further from the truth. Body as such exists only as a construct.

Can you see this?


Color and shape is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of color only.
The visual thought labelled ‘body’ is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of a thought only.
Sensations are NOT the AE of body, but the AE of sensations only.
The appearance of movement is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of colors and sensations only.

There is ZERO AE of body.
Body as such cannot be experienced.
Body is just a mental construct, nothing else.
The body is just a conceptual overlay on the AE of colors, sensations and thoughts. Can you see this?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
LostMe
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:26 am

Re: Looking for the Truth

Postby LostMe » Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:02 pm

Hi Vivien,
Let’s look into this a bit more.
Close your eyes, and scan through the body. Look for every sensation that is present right now. You will find, that as you scan the body, a visual thought ‘shows’ the location of attention, so to speak.
Yes, I can see the visual thoughts about location of most sensations.
If you look very carefully, you’ll find that there are some parts where the sensations are really strong, but there are other areas where there is hardly any sensation going on, or even nothing. So even the sensations what are labelled as ‘body’ cannot be experienced as a whole. I mean you cannot feel all ‘parts’ of the body at the same time. There is only a constructed visual thought and with the label ‘body’, and the belief that the body is a whole unit, always present, always available. But this cannot be further from the truth. Body as such exists only as a construct.
(What did you mean by "But this cannot be further from the truth" in the above para? Is there a typo here?
Can you see this?
Yes, I experience sensations on the legs clearly and they are more noticeable, but in the trunk area of the body, I often don't feel any sensations. There are always some blank areas and can't feel sensations on the whole body at the same time. 
Color and shape is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of color only.
The visual thought labelled ‘body’ is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of a thought only.
Sensations are NOT the AE of body, but the AE of sensations only.
The appearance of movement is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of colors and sensations only.
Its very clear now, thank you for the clarification
There is ZERO AE of body.Body as such cannot be experienced.
Body is just a mental construct, nothing else.
The body is just a conceptual overlay on the AE of colors, sensations and thoughts. Can you see this?

Yes, I see. This is a big discovery! This is seeing through a big illusion. How can one refer to the body as I/me/self, when it is not something one can actually experience, rather totally imaginary. Thoughts have created such a big illusion. There is no controller of thoughts. And the thoughts are constantly changing, momentarily even absencent.

In the light of this discovery, we don't actually experience anything else either, such as the 'computer', 'desk', 'car', 'cat' etc etc. the whole host of stuff animate or inanimate. Everything is a mental construct that we blindly believe in. Everything is just designated by a name, just a convention.

Thank you Vivien for pointing this, its such a big part of the realization of true nature of things.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 5035
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Looking for the Truth

Postby Vivien » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:33 am

Hi Grace,

You did a beautiful looking :)
Yes, I see. This is a big discovery! This is seeing through a big illusion. How can one refer to the body as I/me/self, when it is not something one can actually experience, rather totally imaginary.
Yes :)
A few days ago you wrote:
Perhaps, we can look at the illusion of "body is me/I am the body". I have been looking and it is always the liveliness (ever changing body sensations) and thoughts saying "This is me", but there is no "me" found in direct experience, not at all.

So what would you say now to the assumption “body is me” or “I am the body”?

Is there an I or me that could be the seeming body?

What is it exactly that could identify with the notion of the body?

Is there an actual I/self behind the word ‘I’ who is making the statement “I am the body”?
In the light of this discovery, we don't actually experience anything else either, such as the 'computer', 'desk', 'car', 'cat' etc etc. the whole host of stuff animate or inanimate. Everything is a mental construct that we blindly believe in. Everything is just designated by a name, just a convention.
Yes! Nice observations.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
LostMe
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:26 am

Re: Looking for the Truth

Postby LostMe » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:00 pm

Thank you Vivien.
A few days ago you wrote:
Perhaps, we can look at the illusion of "body is me/I am the body". I have been looking and it is always the liveliness (ever changing body sensations) and thoughts saying "This is me", but there is no "me" found in direct experience, not at all.
So what would you say now to the assumption “body is me” or “I am the body”?
It is proved to be a false assumption by looking directly. It's a total illusion created by sensations and thoughts. It's like saying "an imaginary I is in an imaginary body". 
Is there an I or me that could be the seeming body?
No. It is a 'seeming body', a thought construct and there is nothing in a thought construct. It's an imagination.
What is it exactly that could identify with the notion of the body?
There is nothing in AE that can be identified with the notion of the body.
Is there an actual I/self behind the word ‘I’ who is making the statement “I am the body”?
No, the word 'I' is just like any other word use to label something, there is no I/self actually found who is making the statement "I am the body". Only thoughts make the statement "I am the body/I am in the body etc".  Its a kind of a circular reference; you create it, then you believe it as true and refer back to it as you. I mean, thoughts create ideas of an 'I' and a 'body' and 'I am the body', more thoughts reinforce the believing of it, more thoughts use the statement as true.

Thank you for your guidance.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 5035
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Looking for the Truth

Postby Vivien » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:39 pm

Hi Grace,

Nice observations :)

Now we come back to the other topic you mentioned before, cause and effect. But for that, first we have to look into the notion of time.

What is memory exactly? – please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it…
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?


Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?


Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?


Please spend lot of time with EACH question… Look very carefully… Look at what actually going on and not what thoughts say… but what actually is.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests