Seeing through the dream

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Parmes
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Parmes » Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:58 pm

Dear Vivien

please allow me some more time for my looking. I'll post my reply tomorrow

thank you
Alda

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:24 pm

All right, no problem :)
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Parmes
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Parmes » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:19 pm

Hi Dear Vivien,
Yesterday was a very busy day, thank you for giving me the time to reply.
So here are the questions again, but this time LOOK and write only what you can see here, now:
Is awareness something independent of and prior to sense perception?
I’m looking into the current moment experiencing, seeing, feeling, hearing, tasting, there is no place for awareness. The experience is direct and immediate and only thought can come after it.
Is there an independent awareness waiting in the background for a thought, sensation, smell, etc to appear and to be aware of?
Ok this was my belief. What is seen is that awareness is the same with the sense of being, waiting there and just observing. In looking in the direct experience, there is just the immediate experience and nothing else in the background.
But in order to be an awareness, this knowing/awareness has to exist independently of the known (thought). But is this so?
No it is not. Awareness and Known (thought) are the same, always labeling the direct experience. The experience itself is free of thought.
V: Is there an awareness which is something special, apart from the five senses?
A: Great point ! Yes i is so simple that all experiences are generated from our five senses. I would also add thinking (for the ones that still think :))
You didn’t really answer the question. So please look again, and reply from what you can see here now in this very moment:
Is there an awareness which is something special, apart from the five senses?

No there is not. When we look in the moment there is only experience and there is no place for anything else to be.
Yes I can see this, but the question that pops up is what am I then?
Oh, so you expect to figure out ‘what I am?’
This is the reason why I started seeking for the truth. I understand your question, since there is not a “me”.
Do you think that there is a real self, or a true Self (with capital S), and you just have to figure out what it is?
Yes I thought/believed that there is a true Self and hopped to have a tinny understanding or experience of it. Isn't this an irony?
Is there an ‘I’ or a self/Self to be at all?
No.
What is it that wants to identify with something?
“Me” thought
What or who wants to know “what I am”?
“Me” thought
Who is asking the question "What am I?" ?
“Me” thought
I would also add thinking (for the ones that still think :))
What is thinking?
Nothing is thinking, there is just thoughts

Alda

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Vivien » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:46 am

Hi Alda,
V: What is it that wants to identify with something?
A: “Me” thought
V: What or who wants to know “what I am”?
A: “Me” thought
V: Who is asking the question "What am I?" ?
A: “Me” thought
Let’s dig a bit deeper here.]

Can the me-thought actually identify with something?
Can the me-thought actually want to know “what I am”?
Can the me-thought actually asking questions, like “what am I?”?

Are the above possible?

What can a thought do?
Does a thought have volition?

What is the difference between the me-thought and any other thought, like the thought ‘chair’?


Please look very carefully with the above questions. It’s easy to say that of course a thought cannot want anything, but you have to go deeper, and actually SEE this in experience.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Parmes
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Parmes » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:19 pm

Hello Dear Vivien
Let’s dig a bit deeper here.]
Can the me-thought actually identify with something?
A thought is not an entity to be able to identify with something, it is just an object appearing and experienced. In the same way the “me” thought is a label and cannot identify with something. The identification with the body or a person is happening because the seeing of the thought is believed that is done by a “me” which is off course another thought.
Can the me-thought actually want to know “what I am”?
A thought cannot have wants or desires, it is a simple object.
Can the me-thought actually asking questions, like “what am I?”?
The “me” thought as any other thought cannot ask any questions. There may be a thought in a form of a question but a thought is not itself an entity to ask questions.
Are the above possible?
No there are not, there is simply non clarity and the wrong assumption that if there is a seeing there is a seer and this seer is “me” but off course all this is just a series of thoughts.
What can a thought do?
Nothing, a thought appears and disappears, it has no power on itself to do anything.
Does a thought have volition?
No, a though is just a simple object in the experiencing
What is the difference between the me-thought and any other thought, like the thought ‘chair’?
It is not so obvious to see this very clear in the beginning since the “me” thought has been mistaken to be an entity that actually thinks other thoughts and is aware of any thoughts arising etc but there is no difference between the “me” thought or any other thought.

Alda

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Vivien » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:09 am

Hi Alda,
V: What is the difference between the me-thought and any other thought, like the thought ‘chair’?
A: It is not so obvious to see this very clear in the beginning since the “me” thought has been mistaken to be an entity that actually thinks other thoughts and is aware of any thoughts arising etc but there is no difference between the “me” thought or any other thought.
Is this an experiential reply, or rather it’s just an intellectual understanding?

Sit for about 15 minutes with closed eyes. Let thoughts come and go

When the words I/me/my/mine appear, investigate if these words are any different than any other words.
If a thought claims: “I think” then check if it’s true.
If there is a thought: “I am aware of these thoughts”, then check in experience if this is the case.

Do this as long until it’s utterly clear without any doubt that there the words I/me/my/mine are no different or more special than any other words.

Also look until it’s 100% clear in experience that the word ‘I’ doesn’t think or be aware, and actually there is literally no entity, nothing that is being aware of thoughts and thinking them.

Let me know what you find.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Parmes
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Parmes » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:06 am

Hi Dear Vivian,
V: What is the difference between the me-thought and any other thought, like the thought ‘chair’?
A: It is not so obvious to see this very clear in the beginning since the “me” thought has been mistaken to be an entity that actually thinks other thoughts and is aware of any thoughts arising etc but there is no difference between the “me” thought or any other thought.
Is this an experiential reply, or rather it’s just an intellectual understanding?
It is both. When I do the direct looking then it is seen that the “me” is a thought but it requires a lot of concentration. The rest of the time however, the way I am has not changed. There are several moments during the day where I’m looking and asking the question but the way I’m experiencing life has not changed.
Sit for about 15 minutes with closed eyes. Let thoughts come and go
When the words I/me/my/mine appear, investigate if these words are any different than any other words.
If a thought claims: “I think” then check if it’s true.
If there is a thought: “I am aware of these thoughts”, then check in experience if this is the case.
Do this as long until it’s utterly clear without any doubt that there the words I/me/my/mine are no different or more special than any other words.
Also look until it’s 100% clear in experience that the word ‘I’ doesn’t think or be aware, and actually there is literally no entity, nothing that is being aware of thoughts and thinking them.
Let me know what you find.
I've done this a couple of times during the day today but still I cannot be 100% sure. Please allow me some more time.

Alda

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Vivien » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:41 am

Hi Alda,

Of course, just keep looking and be thorough.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Parmes
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Parmes » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:22 pm

Hello Dear Vivien,

Thank you for your patience, I would like you to know that the last days I feel very disappointed and discouraged. I feel that I’m failing to reach to some clarity and really see through the thoughts which are getting stuck with body feelings and creating this false “me” sensation. On the other hand if there is “no one”, no “me” to do something in order to get more clarity then this situation should be as it should be and is totally ok. I just wanted you to know that.
Sit for about 15 minutes with closed eyes. Let thoughts come and go
When the words I/me/my/mine appear, investigate if these words are any different than any other words.
If a thought claims: “I think” then check if it’s true.
If there is a thought: “I am aware of these thoughts”, then check in experience if this is the case.
Do this as long until it’s utterly clear without any doubt that there the words I/me/my/mine are no different or more special than any other words.
What is found is that there is always there a “me” feeling/sensation. Upon looking at this it is seen that it is made of a sensation (or some sensations) and a thought. Sensations and thought are very close together. When I look at them separately, first look at the thought and it is just a thought it is not “me”, then looking at the sensation in the body and it is only a sensation floating it is not “me”. It is seen therefore that those are 2 objects and an assumption that is a “me” feeling. On the same time there are thoughts saying, well that is ok you have seen this but it has no use since the “me” feeling is still there.
Also look until it’s 100% clear in experience that the word ‘I’ doesn’t think or be aware, and actually there is literally no entity, nothing that is being aware of thoughts and thinking them.
Let me know what you find.
Again when closely looking at this, I can see that the word “I” is just a thought, a label. Then in regards to thinking thoughts when looking closely it is seen that thoughts cannot be thought because they arise without my choice or decision, however during the day when I’m not looking it feels like “I am” thinking. The hardest to see clearly is that there is no entity that is being aware or experiencing. There is always the sensation that there is an entity in this body being aware of whatever is going on.

Alda

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Vivien » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:45 am

Hi Alda,
Thank you for your patience, I would like you to know that the last days I feel very disappointed and discouraged. I feel that I’m failing to reach to some clarity and really see through the thoughts which are getting stuck with body feelings and creating this false “me” sensation. On the other hand if there is “no one”, no “me” to do something in order to get more clarity then this situation should be as it should be and is totally ok. I just wanted you to know that.
Thank you for sharing this. You don’t have to be disappointed, sooner or later you will be able to see through the illusion. You only need persistent looking. We don’t have to rush. I’m here with you as long as it takes, and it doesn’t matter how long it takes.:)
What is found is that there is always there a “me” feeling/sensation.
Please describe to me this me-feeling/sensation as precisely as you can, but without any speculation, theory, analogy or imagination. Just the pure facts.

Where is this me-feeling located?


Please switch the attention back and forth between the me-sensation and the sensations of the soles of your feet.
What is the exact difference between the me-sensation and the sensations of the sole of your feet?
What makes that sensation into a special sensation, into a me-feeling?
The hardest to see clearly is that there is no entity that is being aware or experiencing. There is always the sensation that there is an entity in this body being aware of whatever is going on.
Please locate this sensation that is seemingly the entity being aware.
Where is the exact location?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Parmes
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Parmes » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:22 am

Hello Dear Vivien,
Thank you for sharing this. You don’t have to be disappointed, sooner or later you will be able to see through the illusion. You only need persistent looking. We don’t have to rush. I’m here with you as long as it takes, and it doesn’t matter how long it takes.:)
Thank you so much Vivien, your words are so comforting and give me hope and strength.
What is found is that there is always there a “me” feeling/sensation.
Please describe to me this me-feeling/sensation as precisely as you can, but without any speculation, theory, analogy or imagination. Just the pure facts.
I would like to start by saying that there is a strong thought, conviction or belief that even if it is seen with this looking inquiry that the “me” feeling is just a sensation and a thought, the way I experience things will not change at all and the “me” feeling will still remain as it is in its foundation. It will not be impacted or be changed at all. And this because it will be a just a logical understanding which has not any power to change the energetic part of “me”. There is also an “understanding” that it will only change by it’s own and it will not be because of looking or logical reasoning.
Ok back into looking now. I’m sitting on my chair in front of my pc, the “me” if not looked closely is the presence of the body (bodily sensations) plus something else. This something else is something which cannot be located, it is the awareness of being here or being alive, it is the part that knows the experience of being aware of the sensations the seeing etc. When I look closer at the bodily sensations, those can be seen as separate from the part that knows but they still feel “me” in a sense since the part that knows considers the body as me.
Where is this me-feeling located?
It does not have a precise location but it generally feels to be around the head area.
Please switch the attention back and forth between the me-sensation and the sensations of the soles of your feet.
What is the exact difference between the me-sensation and the sensations of the sole of your feet?
Ok, today there is a sensation in the middle of the chest area that initially felt part of the “me” but when looked closely it is no different than the soles of the feet sensation. What however is completely different is that the soles of the feet sensation is only a sensation where “me” is not really only a sensation.
What makes that sensation into a special sensation, into a me-feeling?
The part that is not a sensation makes the “me” different.
The hardest to see clearly is that there is no entity that is being aware or experiencing. There is always the sensation that there is an entity in this body being aware of whatever is going on.
Please locate this sensation that is seemingly the entity being aware.
Where is the exact location?
It is not in a precise spot than can be located but it feels more in and around the head area.

Alda

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Vivien » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:05 am

Hi Alda,
I’m going to give you lots of questions this time. Please be very thorough with the questions. Don’t rush.
I would like to start by saying that there is a strong thought, conviction or belief that even if it is seen with this looking inquiry that the “me” feeling is just a sensation and a thought, the way I experience things will not change at all and the “me” feeling will still remain as it is in its foundation. It will not be impacted or be changed at all. And this because it will be a just a logical understanding which has not any power to change the energetic part of “me”. There is also an “understanding” that it will only change by it’s own and it will not be because of looking or logical reasoning.
It's really not good to expect anything. It cannot be known how it will be. All expectations are hindrances.

If it will be only intellectual, then the self won’t be seen through and this inquiry won’t be finished.
We are aiming for an experiential understanding/conviction, and not just an intellectual one.

However, you are making a flawed conclusion here. You have a perception of what you mean by ‘energetic part’, and if that ‘energetic part’ won’t change to how you imagine it should change then it would mean just an intellectual understanding.

So there are layers of belief in this, which are all hindrances to see what is actually happening.

First, please tell me, how do you define the ‘energetic part of you’? What is it that you are referring to?
And then how do you expect or imagine this ‘energetic part of you’ should change?
And if that doesn’t happen, how do you know that it would mean that the understanding is only intellectual?
Ok back into looking now. I’m sitting on my chair in front of my pc, the “me” if not looked closely is the presence of the body (bodily sensations) plus something else. This something else is something which cannot be located, it is the awareness of being here or being alive, it is the part that knows the experience of being aware of the sensations the seeing etc.
Please describe me this ‘awareness’ as precisely as you can, without using any speculation, theory, analogy, or imagination. Just the pure experiential facts of it.
When I look closer at the bodily sensations, those can be seen as separate from the part that knows but they still feel “me” in a sense since the part that knows considers the body as me.
So are you saying that there are two things:
- Sensation
- and a separate awareness, something that knows and is aware of the sensation?

But is this really true? The sensation is clearly there, but WHERE is this knowing awareness exactly?

And are you saying that this seeming awareness is considering the body as ‘me’?
If yes, then it would mean that this seeming separate awareness/knower is an entity, which thinks and produces the thoughts ‘the body is me’. But is this so? Is this what experience shows?

Ok, today there is a sensation in the middle of the chest area that initially felt part of the “me” but when looked closely it is no different than the soles of the feet sensation. What however is completely different is that the soles of the feet sensation is only a sensation where “me” is not really only a sensation.
If the me-sensation is not really only a sensation, then what else? What else is that other than a sensation?
V: What makes that sensation into a special sensation, into a me-feeling?
A: The part that is not a sensation makes the “me” different.
But what is this part that you are repeatedly referring to?
Does this part actually exist, or is it just imagined?


Because if it exists other than an idea, then you have to prove it.
Imagine that you are at a court, and you have to prove the existence of this ‘part’.

So how do you prove it?
So please list the factual evidences of the existence of this ‘part’.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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