Seeing through the dream

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:41 am

Hi Alda,
It feels more on the forehead and the area behind the eyes but again this would be a conclusion, a thought, since I cannot find the "me" in a precise location, it’s like it’s floating.
Is there REALLY a me-character floating inside the head, or rather this is just an imagination?

Is the self something like an entity, or is it rather insubstantial, like a character in a story?
Is the thought of yourself is ‘yourself itself’?
Is a certain behaviour ‘yourself itself’?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Parmes
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Parmes » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:21 pm

Hi Vivien,
Today I would like to apologize for my replies in advance since I had a hard day at work and did not have so much time to do my direct looking.
One of the things I try to do over the day is to watch constantly the thoughts arising. There were times that I could really see that they were popping out of nowhere not created by a “me” and disappear in the same way as they appeared.
It feels more on the forehead and the area behind the eyes but again this would be a conclusion, a thought, since I cannot find the "me" in a precise location, it’s like it’s floating.
Is there REALLY a me-character floating inside the head, or rather this is just an imagination?
Yes the phrase I used “floating” is more of a thought, an imagination out of the fact that I could not really locate the me. It seems to be there but cannot be located. It is so frustrating as it feels that the “me” is looking to find the “me”.
I’m sorry maybe I’m confusing things, language is a barrier especially when English is not my mother tongue and I have to write things which are so difficult to explain in words.
Is the self something like an entity, or is it rather insubstantial, like a character in a story?
My day to day experience is that the body is an entity and this body’s “owner” is a certain character playing in this life movie. When there is clarity I can catch “him” often doing his show and I can laugh at it. I do not believe really in this character, what bothers me is the identification with the body.
Is the thought of yourself is ‘yourself itself’?
No a thought is just a thought that can be no other than just a thought.
Is a certain behavior ‘yourself itself’?
I do not completely understand this question..

Alda

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:19 am

Hi Alda,
One of the things I try to do over the day is to watch constantly the thoughts arising. There were times that I could really see that they were popping out of nowhere not created by a “me” and disappear in the same way as they appeared.
Yes, very good :)
It is so frustrating as it feels that the “me” is looking to find the “me”.
HOW do you know that the ‘me’ is looking to find the ‘me’?

Does looking needs a doer? Does looking needs someone to do it? Does looking done by something or someone? Or looking just happens on its own?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Parmes
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Parmes » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:23 pm

Hi Vivien,
It is so frustrating as it feels that the “me” is looking to find the “me”.
HOW do you know that the ‘me’ is looking to find the ‘me’?
There ware moments that my concentration in my head made somehow the seeing “srink” into the “me feeling “ and it felt like the “me” was looking to find “me”.
Does looking needs a doer? Does looking needs someone to do it? Does looking done by something or someone? Or looking just happens on its own?
Yes looking is just happening, it is more evident when “I look” at things around me etc…it is not the eyes that do the seeing, seeing is already there happening. I do not know if it makes sense or it is an illusion but I will mention it anyway; I was doing a small exercise tonight, I was sitting in my desk and there was seeing happening, the body the objects around, the tv, everything was seen with no effort, I was then moving my eyes left and right but the seeing was not changing not moving left and right, is was not moving, still covering the entire room like the eyes had nothing to do with it.

Alda

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Vivien » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:56 am

Hi Alda,
There ware moments that my concentration in my head made somehow the seeing “srink” into the “me feeling “ and it felt like the “me” was looking to find “me”.
Please locate this ‘me feeling’ and compare it with the feeling/sensations of the sole of your feet.
What is the difference? What makes the ‘me feeling’ into a me, and the sole of your feet just a plain sensation?

Is there really such thing as ‘me feeling’?
I was doing a small exercise tonight, I was sitting in my desk and there was seeing happening, the body the objects around, the tv, everything was seen with no effort, I was then moving my eyes left and right but the seeing was not changing not moving left and right, is was not moving, still covering the entire room like the eyes had nothing to do with it.
Great :)
Do you sometimes have unpleasant thoughts? Do you want to have them?
If you had any control over thoughts, don’t you think you would choose not to think such thoughts at all?
Wouldn’t you be able to choose never to have thoughts that seem to make you unhappy?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Parmes
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Parmes » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:09 am

Hi Vivien,
There were moments that my concentration in my head made somehow the seeing “shrink” into the “me feeling “ and it felt like the “me” was looking to find “me”.
Please locate this ‘me feeling’ and compare it with the feeling/sensations of the sole of your feet.
What is the difference? What makes the ‘me feeling’ into a me, and the sole of your feet just a plain sensation?
This is a very smart exercise..there is no difference between the two feelings. What makes the “me feeling” into me is the whole “training” I had in my life until now that I am this body. If both feelings are seeing without any memory of the past and no thought they are both identical…
Is there really such thing as ‘me feeling’?
There is just a feeling, the me is an etiquette, a label.
Do you sometimes have unpleasant thoughts? Do you want to have them?
Yes, very often I have unpleasant and negative thoughts that I wish I would not have.
If you had any control over thoughts, don’t you think you would choose not to think such thoughts at all? Wouldn’t you be able to choose never to have thoughts that seem to make you unhappy?
Certainly, if I had such a control I would choose only positive thoughts or thoughts that make me happy. 😊

Alda

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Vivien » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:32 am

Hi Alda,
V: If you had any control over thoughts, don’t you think you would choose not to think such thoughts at all? Wouldn’t you be able to choose never to have thoughts that seem to make you unhappy?
A: Certainly, if I had such a control I would choose only positive thoughts or thoughts that make me happy.
Did this reply come from looking at experience in that moment, or you just thought about the answer?
Have you actually checked if you have control over thoughts?


Here is an exercise for you.
Take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment.
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen. You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it.
You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

Look at this several times before replying.
Let me know what you find.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Parmes
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Parmes » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:18 pm

Hi Vivien,
Did this reply come from looking at experience in that moment, or you just thought about the answer?
Have you actually checked if you have control over thoughts?
Yes, I did check and I looked. I cannot have control. I decided to have thoughts that do not make me feel negative or unhappy for the next 15 minutes…my control lasted only a few seconds and the first irritating thought came in…
Here is an exercise for you.
Take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment.
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen. You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it.
You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

Look at this several times before replying.
Let me know what you find.
Please allow me some more time for this exercise…I did it a few times already today but I would like to continue tomorrow and type my findings. Shall I focus only on the thoughts?

Alda

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:16 am

Hi Alda,
Please allow me some more time for this exercise…I did it a few times already today but I would like to continue tomorrow and type my findings. Shall I focus only on the thoughts?
Of course. The main focus is on thoughts, but you can look if there is anything you make to happen.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Parmes
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Parmes » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:53 pm

Hi Vivien
Here is an exercise for you.
Take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment.
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen. You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it.
You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

Look at this several times before replying.
Let me know what you find.
I’m travelling again this week and I took the train early in the morning for a 3 hrs trip. During this time I tried to do the exercise taking notice what is being experienced in the moment and notice the thoughts. Shortly after I started I got caught in an negative feeling by focusing my attention on someone on the behind seat typing his computer keys in a very loud manner..at least this is what the thought was telling me. So I could see that it is just a thought that labels this situation but I could not disidentify with the “me” that was not happy and was disturbed by the noise. So I stopped the exercise there.
Tonight I went to have dinner at my hotel’s restaurant and it was the nice place /time for me to redo my exercise. The restaurant was quite noisy (a good thing 😊) and I was in a calm small table. Here is what I experienced :
When I’m focusing on what is happening in the moment, like listening to the sounds, seeing the movements, feeling the body sensations etc, then there is a kind of expectation created to see what happens out of the exercise which actually blocks the whole thing and creates also a feeling of a contraction felt in center of the chest.
When on the other side I’m focusing on looking only at the thoughts arising in the present moment then there is a silence noticed and in the same time there is a clear noticing of all that is going on around, the sounds of the people talking, the feelings in the body, tasting, seeing etc.
The present moment is choiceless (those are the words that came up), what I want to say by that is that things are happening/unfolding without any one being there to decide about what should happen, the order of how things should happen, what is good or bad, nice of not nice etc etc, in other words it is what it is.
What is experienced in the moment is completely neutral, there is not any label added. When there are thoughts then they are labeling what is experienced.
When there are not thoughts there is an expansion, it is like being at all experiences at the same time, listening, seeing, tasting, feeling. When there are thoughts there is a contraction and mainly it feels like I’m in the head area.
So the more I was on my senses the less I was in thoughts and vise versa.

Alda

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Vivien » Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:11 am

Hi Alda,

You did a great looking.
When on the other side I’m focusing on looking only at the thoughts arising in the present moment then there is a silence noticed
Yes… and the silence is the answer :)
What is experienced in the moment is completely neutral, there is not any label added. When there are thoughts then they are labeling what is experienced.
Yes, exactly.
The present moment is choiceless (those are the words that came up), what I want to say by that is that things are happening/unfolding without any one being there to decide about what should happen, the order of how things should happen, what is good or bad, nice of not nice etc etc, in other words it is what it is.
Nice observation.

Can you check, is there any other time than the present moment (now)?
There is nowhere else to look and see but here now.
Can you fall out from the present moment?
What is happening when thoughts talk about future, does that mean that now/present moment is lost?
Is being aware lost, when thoughts talk about what is not happening here and now?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Parmes
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Parmes » Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:19 pm

Hi Vivien,
Can you check, is there any other time than the present moment (now)?
There is nowhere else to look and see but here now.
Yes exactly, there is always the eternal now and no other time. Future and past are thoughts done in the now.
Can you fall out from the present moment?
There is nowhere to go except now.
What is happening when thoughts talk about future, does that mean that now/present moment is lost?
No, thoughts talk about the future always in the now
Is being aware lost, when thoughts talk about what is not happening here and now?

Being aware cannot be lost, we are just aware now of the thoughts arising now talking about something else which is not happening now.

Alda

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Vivien » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:53 pm

Hi Alda,
Future and past are thoughts done in the now.
Exactly.

Observe thought closely.
Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this?
Isn’t a thought only known as it appears?
In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Parmes
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Parmes » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:25 pm

Hi Vivien,
Observe thought closely.
Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this?
No, I cannot do this. There is a “blanc” without any idea what this thought would be.
Isn’t a thought only known as it appears?
Yes, it appears out of nothing which is not known
In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?
No I cannot be in control of the thinking process, even if sometimes especially for simple logical steps it seems that one is doing the thinking. For example solving a problem or doing something that you’ve done before and you know the steps etc. Also can we please inquire more on the choices or impulses?

thank you
Alda

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing through the dream

Postby Vivien » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:36 pm

Hi Alda,
For example solving a problem or doing something that you’ve done before and you know the steps etc. Also can we please inquire more on the choices or impulses?
Yes, definitely.

Think of a 2-digit number. After, investigate:
Why did you choose that number?
Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know?
If not, why don’t you know?


If you are the thinker of thoughts, then you must know EXACTLY how you create them.
So how did you create the thought of the number you choose?

Repeat the experiment at least 10 times (or more) before replying.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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