Synelg

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4068
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Synelg

Postby Vivien » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:17 am

Hi Synelg,
But there's a slight doubt about control - so for instance if I want to ignore thoughts, then I can go visit a friend and that stops the thoughts.
All right. Sit for a while and just watch how thoughts come and go.
And then at some point, make a decision to ignore thoughts.

Have you made the decision-thought of ignoring thoughts to come up?
Is that thought is your doing?
If you say yes, please describe the process how you instigated that thought to appear.

And yesterday, whilst working with a friend's horse, I got a pain in my thigh and thought if I sit down for half an hour, this would go away. Which it did.
And then what? A thought arrived with the content “it’s better if I sit down”.
Then the body sat down, and half an hour later the pain was gone.
So what? What does it prove?

Have you made the thought “it’s better to sit down” to appear?
Did you thought that thought?


Observe thought closely.
Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears?
In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Synelg
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:04 pm

Re: Synelg

Postby Synelg » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:41 am

All right. Sit for a while and just watch how thoughts come and go.
And then at some point, make a decision to ignore thoughts.
Have you made the decision-thought of ignoring thoughts to come up?
Is that thought is your doing?
If you say yes, please describe the process how you instigated that thought to appear.
There was a thought about intending to ignore thoughts, but 'I' didn't make it, it just popped up. Then there was a thought 'I' am going to ignore these thoughts,but it just popped up, it was not done by 'me'. Then I just opened my eyes and switched tabs to another area of interest. But 'I' didn't do it, it just happened automatically.

I tried this a number of times and most times, there was no decision, no thought - the hand just switched tabs. Not me.

Excellent! I have no control over thoughts. It just happens, thoughts just pop up, actions take place. Not me. Thankyou Vivien :) I don't thank you enough. I wish I could do something for YOU. I cannot express how grateful I am for all the work and time you put into guiding me. You are amazing. Lots of emotion here - contractions in the nose and tears and nose-blowing lol. Huge gratitude.
And yesterday, whilst working with a friend's horse, I got a pain in my thigh and thought if I sit down for half an hour, this would go away. Which it did.
And then what? A thought arrived with the content “it’s better if I sit down”.
Yes exactly lol.
Then the body sat down, and half an hour later the pain was gone.
So what? What does it prove?[/quote]
It proves nothing. It's just thoughts saying that they were right. Just thoughts
Have you made the thought “it’s better to sit down” to appear?
Did you thought that thought?
No, it's all just thoughts. Feel silly again lol. Just all thoughts.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4068
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Synelg

Postby Vivien » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:21 am

Excellent! I have no control over thoughts. It just happens, thoughts just pop up, actions take place. Not me. Thankyou Vivien :) I don't thank you enough. I wish I could do something for YOU. I cannot express how grateful I am for all the work and time you put into guiding me. You are amazing. Lots of emotion here - contractions in the nose and tears and nose-blowing lol. Huge gratitude.
You are most welcome :)

So can you say during this looking there was a slight shift from intellectual understanding of not being control over thoughts to actually seeing it experimentally?


It seems to me :)

How does it feel to see that there is no control over thoughts?
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Synelg
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:04 pm

Re: Synelg

Postby Synelg » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:51 am

So can you say during this looking there was a slight shift from intellectual understanding of not being control over thoughts to actually seeing it experimentally?
Yes, there was definitely a little shift - particularly in the exercise that I replied to at 10:19 am where I saw that the 'I' was just INSIDE a thought. Absolutely nowhere else. And I know this has been seen before, but this time there was some emotion with it, like 'wow - it really IS just inside of a thought and nowhere else'. Closest I can come to explaining. And yes, a little shift in again - it's been seen before that there's no control over thoughts, but this time it was a little more of a 'wow, there really isn't any control over thoughts'. Not big wows but definitely a little shift. Makes it more exciting to 'look' if you can understand it. Makes me want to look more because I want to see it again and again and again. I 'feel' like this area is very important for me to keep looking here, although whatever exercise you give me now, I think the looking and experiencing this is going to stick.
How does it feel to see that there is no control over thoughts?
Every time it's 'seen' - the no control - each time there's a little relief. And a little relaxation.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4068
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Synelg

Postby Vivien » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:06 am

Great Synelg, I’m happy for you :)

I’m going to give you several series of questions and pointer about thoughts in the following days. Please be very thorough with them. We don’t have to rush. And there might be some repetition, but repetition is good :)

You forgot to reply to some previous questions. So here are then again. Please look at them again, several times, thoroughly, before replying. Make sure that when you reply you are 100% sure about your comments.

Observe thought closely.
Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears?
In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Synelg
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:04 pm

Re: Synelg

Postby Synelg » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:56 am

And there might be some repetition, but repetition is good
Vivien I will NEVER complain about repetition. Ever. I've worked with animals all my life. It's ALL repetition. Of the basics. Thousands and thousands and thousands of times. :). And each time something goes wrong, you go straight back to the basics to find what you've missed. So I'm very grateful for the repetition. And particularly in this area where I'm surprised to find very small doubts coming up now. And oops! Apologies for missing those questions. Freudian slip?
Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears.
I read this question, and was about to start looking thinking that although I can't determine what the next thought was going to be, they do seem to follow a theme, like I thought that if I read the question JUST before looking, that looking would start by looking for the answer. But looking started with an immediate and totally irrelevant thought. BWA HA HA. So much for that theory!

2nd attempt - there was a thought 'it's going to be about...' and before I could 'think' of what I wanted to 'think', I saw a tree and thought 'tree'. Rolls eyes.

Gosh, every time I tried to determine what the next thought will be, a thought - so far totally irrelevant - just pops up. I tried many times - 'The next thought is going to be about . . . 'and then a thought would pop up. Not me. Thoughts just pop up before decisions can be made lol.
Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears?
Thoughts are only know the instant they pop into existence. Only at that moment.
In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?
I can't. But I want to keep seeing this.
I’m going to give you several series of questions and pointer about thoughts in the following days. Please be very thorough with them.
Relief. Not sure why. I will be very thorough. And thankyou for seeing that I need this.

i notice there's some thoughts about resistance to doing this exercise. Saying this exercise is hard work. Just thoughts though. Not believed now it's recognised.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4068
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Synelg

Postby Vivien » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:07 am

I tried many times - 'The next thought is going to be about . . . 'and then a thought would pop up.
Now please repeat this exercise, but not just look if you can determine what will be the next thought in advance, but also see if there is a control over WHEN to start to look and say: “the next thought is going to be about…”

I hope you find the instruction clear. If not, please let me know.
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Synelg
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:04 pm

Re: Synelg

Postby Synelg » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:20 pm

Now please repeat this exercise, but not just look if you can determine what will be the next thought in advance, but also see if there is a control over WHEN to start to look and say: “the next thought is going to be about…”
All yesterday evening, and this morning, I was alarmed to find that I thought 'I' COULD control WHEN to start to look. Each time, 'I' would say "NOW - the next thought is going to be about . . ". Over and over it seemed clear that it was 'I' that was saying 'now. And early this morning also. And it was so clear that this is how the 'I' is created also. Alarming.

So I just went back to find your pointers yesterday.
Have you made the decision-thought of ignoring thoughts to come up?
Is that thought is your doing?
If you say yes, please describe the process how you instigated that thought to appear.
And the absolute split-second I saw the questions it was obvious that the thought was not made by 'me' at all. The 'now' thought just pops up. And I'm continuing to do this exercise.

But there's now a little anxiety - it was very convincing (and alarming) that the 'I' was instigating the 'now' instruction, and in an instant, with your pointers, that was gone. Am I fooling myself? What 'I', what 'me'. But the anxiety remains. If it weren't for Vivien, 'I' wouldn't have seen this for what it is. Maybe 'I'll' never 'get' this. And now, typing this up - it's realised yet AGAIN that these are just bloody thoughts. Aaaargh lolol. Am I going to have to type up every time something happens before I realise that it's just thoughts? Oh well, if that's what has to happen, so be it. 'I' can do that lol.

Something else that has been noticed, is that the lovely little 'shifts' or insights that happen - such as the delightful 'deeper' realisation that the 'I' is REALLY only INSIDE a thought - that realisation that I had the other day - the excitement of it, the delight in seeing it over and over, has gone now. It's just become 'business as usual'. Just incorporated, so although the moment when the realisation happened is remembered, the emotions that came with it no longer occur when it's seen now.

And then it's wondered whether or not a little shift DID actually occur - and that's just another thought! When does it become automatic to recognise that it's just thoughts and hence not real? Does it matter what thoughts say? No, but it's the recognising that is IS just thoughts happening that's a hard part sometimes.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4068
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Synelg

Postby Vivien » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:25 am

Hi Synelg,
But there's now a little anxiety - it was very convincing (and alarming) that the 'I' was instigating the 'now' instruction, and in an instant, with your pointers, that was gone. Am I fooling myself? What 'I', what 'me'. But the anxiety remains. If it weren't for Vivien, 'I' wouldn't have seen this for what it is. Maybe 'I'll' never 'get' this. And now, typing this up - it's realised yet AGAIN that these are just bloody thoughts
That was a clear seeing yesterday, and not just an intellectual one. It’s normal that seeing flip-flops. It’s seen in one moment, and in the next it seems to be lost. Don’t worry about this. Just keep looking. You are doing very well.
Something else that has been noticed, is that the lovely little 'shifts' or insights that happen - such as the delightful 'deeper' realisation that the 'I' is REALLY only INSIDE a thought - that realisation that I had the other day - the excitement of it, the delight in seeing it over and over, has gone now. It's just become 'business as usual'. Just incorporated, so although the moment when the realisation happened is remembered, the emotions that came with it no longer occur when it's seen now.
And that’s all right. Why would it occur again and again? It’s not about having the same emotional response again and again every time when you look. After the initial surprise when discovered that you were born on Mars, would that surprise be a continuous thing for the rest of your life when you think about that discovery, or would that fade and become the new normal? Don’t expect for the emotion to say.
And the absolute split-second I saw the questions it was obvious that the thought was not made by 'me' at all. The 'now' thought just pops up. And I'm continuing to do this exercise.
Please spend your whole day looking if the me-character is the creator of thought.
All yesterday evening, and this morning, I was alarmed to find that I thought 'I' COULD control WHEN to start to look. Each time, 'I' would say "NOW - the next thought is going to be about . . ". Over and over it seemed clear that it was 'I' that was saying 'now. And early this morning also. And it was so clear that this is how the 'I' is created also.
Please repeat the: ‘now’….

Can you observe a ‘me’ instigating the thought ‘now’?

Is the me-character the creator or the created?
Is the character in the story creating what happens in the story or the story about the character creates itself, one thought at a time?
Is the me character thinking?
Or are thoughts coming up by themselves, including thoughts about the ‘me’?


Stay with these questions for the whole day.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Synelg
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:04 pm

Re: Synelg

Postby Synelg » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:30 am

That was a clear seeing yesterday, and not just an intellectual one. It’s normal that seeing flip-flops. It’s seen in one moment, and in the next it seems to be lost. Don’t worry about this. Just keep looking. You are doing very well.
And that’s all right. Why would it occur again and again? It’s not about having the same emotional response again and again every time when you look. After the initial surprise when discovered that you were born on Mars, would that surprise be a continuous thing for the rest of your life when you think about that discovery, or would that fade and become the new normal? Don’t expect for the emotion to say.
Thankyou Vivien. This has been good to hear. :)
Please spend your whole day looking if the me-character is the creator of thought.
Please repeat the: ‘now’….
Can you observe a ‘me’ instigating the thought ‘now’?
It 'feels' like a 'me' WITH the thought, not instigating it. This is one of the few times lately that I've had the me-feeling. And it was alarming – most times now there's no me-feeling - I find the 'I' INSIDE a narrative thought-sentence, but not a me-feeling. I question it -it's just a thought-feeling, there's no REAL me anywhere, but the thought-feeling is still there. And I've only just realised, again, whilst writing this, that that's ok - to not expect the me-feeling to go away. phew.

Also, with subsequent lookings, it's getting more difficult to find the me-feeling.

Yes, with further lookings, the 'now....' decision is just there. No me. No me-feeling.
Is the me-character the creator or the created?
The me-feeling was not the creator. It was created in the instant of the thought 'now'. And I'm unclear about a me-character - it was a me-feeling, not a character.

Subsequent lookings - there's no me or me-feeling or me-character at all that can be found when asking the 'now' question.
Is the character in the story creating what happens in the story or the story about the character creates itself, one thought at a time?
When not asking the 'now' question and watching thoughts, stories/scenes/memories with the character in them just create themselves. And there are narrative sentences that have the word 'I' in them - as in "Now, I'm going to think about...". There's no-one creating them and they're just words.
Is the me character thinking?
No, with the 'now' question it was just a me-feeling, which in the first lookings, had a sensation with it as well. In the throat. It was just a sensation - which was investigated. After a few lookings, the me-feeling and sensation wasn't there.
Or are thoughts coming up by themselves, including thoughts about the ‘me’?
No 'me' thoughts after the first lookings, except in the content of a narrative thought. Just the 'now...'I'm going to think of' decision and then loads of thoughts about 'what' to think of - usually a tree as that was what was first seen.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4068
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Synelg

Postby Vivien » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:57 am

Sorry, my questions weren’t clear. I meant them (except the first) in general, not when saying ‘now’.

So please look at them again, but this time in general.

Is the me-character the creator or the created?
Is the character in the story creating what happens in the story or the story about the character creates itself, one thought at a time?
Is the me character thinking?
Or are thoughts coming up by themselves, including thoughts about the ‘me’?

Stay with these for the rest of the day.
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Synelg
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:04 pm

Re: Synelg

Postby Synelg » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:55 pm

Is the me-character the creator or the created?
The me-character is definitely the created
Is the character in the story creating what happens in the story or the story about the character creates itself, one thought at a time?
The character is not creating what happens. Each story just gets created - a story with the me-character inside it. Each thought is separate.
Is the me character thinking?
No
Or are thoughts coming up by themselves, including thoughts about the ‘me’?
The thoughts just come up by themselves, stories with the character inside them, or stories about something that affects me, or stories about things in my life. Sometimes the stories don't have the character in them - those happened last night in bed just before going to sleep - a replaying of some of the scenes from the tv programme I watched before going to bed.

A thought occurred to me (that phrase is soooo apt now), that meditation, at least the meditation I first learnt, was all about trying to control thoughts. No wonder I found it difficult - lots of tension. Thoughts can't be controlled. However, another thought occurred to me (lol), that the 'conditioning' that's happening every moment DOES affect thinking. Not affected by anyONE, but 'noting' sound, colour, thinking etc just sometimes 'happens' now for short periods, due to that conditioning. Yes? And attention sometimes goes to the sensation of air at the nostrils. Apologies if this is beyond the scope of this investigation and perhaps such questions get answered eventually through this process.

Thoughts occur. So apt.

I've noticed that when sitting with eyes closed and hearing sound, it's ALWAYS accompanied by a thought-picture or a thought-label. Always. So far anyway. If I hear a sound of a bird with my eyes closed, there's always a fuzzy thought-picture of outside and a thought of 'over there'. Even wind gets a fuzzy thought-picture. If I notice the sensation of air at my nostrils, then there's a thought-picture of the nostrils. 'Noting' then becomes a bit silly - do you note 'sensation' or do you note 'thought picture' lol. With eyes open and noting 'colour', it's a bit more difficult to see the thought-label as the different objects are seen so fast, but it must be so, otherwise there really WOULD just be colour seen as the objects ARE recognised. More looking to be done here to see. . . But back to the exercise ...

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4068
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Synelg

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:28 am

Hi Synelg,
However, another thought occurred to me (lol), that the 'conditioning' that's happening every moment DOES affect thinking. Not affected by anyONE, but 'noting' sound, colour, thinking etc just sometimes 'happens' now for short periods, due to that conditioning. Yes? And attention sometimes goes to the sensation of air at the nostrils. Apologies if this is beyond the scope of this investigation and perhaps such questions get answered eventually through this process.
This is a thought speculation only. In reality there is no cause and effect. Only thoughts suggest so.

What I’m seeing from your comments that you have a tendency to not keep the focus on the given questions, but to go to other topics. Please try to keep the focus on the questions, even if you can clearly see the answer. Don’t deviate from that. Just keep the focus there repeatedly.

Do you notice that the ideas that appear as thoughts are not the same as direct sense experience? That they are something extra that is added on to the immediate experience?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Synelg
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:04 pm

Re: Synelg

Postby Synelg » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:40 am

Do you notice that the ideas that appear as thoughts are not the same as direct sense experience? That they are something extra that is added on to the immediate experience?
Absolutely.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4068
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Synelg

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:50 am

And can you see that the me-thought is not different for any other ideas/concepts? That the me-thought is also just an added extra (by thoughts) overlaying (on top of) the immediate experience?

That the ‘me’ is just a thought narration? Nothing more?

Is there any doubt that it might be otherwise?
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest