Synelg

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Synelg
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Re: Synelg

Postby Synelg » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:50 pm

Today I won’t be able to reply in the afternoon (I think I am 2 hours behind you).
Thankyou. I will be away this afternoon also. :)
Is the seeing separate from the seen? Are these two things?
No, not separate. The seeing and the seen is also immediate, as in there's really only the seen. Not seeing, just the seen.
Is tasting separate from taste? Are these two things?
No, there's just taste.
Is smelling separate from smell? Is there smelling + smell? Or just smelling? Or just smell?
aaahh - this one was a bit sticky. Taste was easy - I can still 'taste' the prune, even though it's minutes since I ate it, so no tasting going on, just taste.

Smell? To smell, I have to lift up something to my nose, then breath in air to smell it. aaaah - got it - lifting cup - sensation, putting cup on skin below nose - sensation, breathing in - sensation, smell - immediate. There's just smell, no smelling

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Vivien
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Re: Synelg

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:42 am

Now let’s come back to the experiencer / experienced questions. Please spend your whole day investigating this as often as you can. Whatever you do during the day, just investigate:

Is there an experiencer + the experienced?

Is there anything separate from the experience what is happening right now?
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Synelg
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Re: Synelg

Postby Synelg » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:28 am

Is there an experiencer + the experienced?
Driving car
laughs – NOOOO. It happens too fast anyway. Hand moves the steering wheel, the hand puts the indicator on. It just happens. You see the road, it's just seen. The hand goes back on the steering wheel. It just happened. The hand just changed gear and went back on the steering wheel. It just happened. There's no experiencer in between. Is there an experiencer? Can't find one. There's just the experienced. It's just so obvious it's just the experienced. It's so obvious, it's just immediate. It's right now. There is what there is, right now.

So nooooooo. Noooooo. There's no experiencer + the experienced. There's just what's happening right now.

Is there anything separate from the experience that is happening right now?
There's seeing, feeling hands on wheel, steering wheel. Sunlight.

Nope. It's all immediate. There's nothing else there. There's nothing except the experience.

So No. There's nothing separate from the experience that is happening right now.

Then I worked with a young horse and it's owner. No thoughts of this work. Just concentration on the work and the dangers and explaining things to the owner and showing her what to do. Is there an experiencer present in such times? No idea – wasn't aware of anything except what was happening. Had a cup of tea with her afterwards – not aware of an experiencer, but forgot to look.

Now back at home typing and looking. Is this the experiencer sitting here separate from the experience of typing? Not that I can find – just a 'feeling' of an I. What feeling? Just body sensations. What about an experiencer? Nope – just seeing the neighbour mowing his lawn. Just the seen and a label. No experiencer.

I will continue this exercise until I hear from you Vivien.

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Synelg
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Re: Synelg

Postby Synelg » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:37 am

Vivien – doing this last exercise had made me more aware of what I now presume is an 'I' 'feeling'. It was obvious there was no experiencer and I know the 'I' and the experiencer are the same, but it was obvious to me there was no experiencer. But now, sitting here, I 'feel like me', which of course I can't find. And which I constantly (dozens and dozens of times a day) ask 'so where is this 'I' feeling and it's always just sensation. Will that always remain? I no longer believe it of course, just wondering. It doesn't feel like this feeling is DOING or experiencing anything, just feels like 'me'.

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Synelg
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Re: Synelg

Postby Synelg » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:23 am

I feel dumb again lol. I've just realised that the 'I still feel like me' is a thought. A verbal thought at that. I thought it was a FEELING. BWAHAHAHAHA. All this time....... rolls eyes....

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Synelg
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Re: Synelg

Postby Synelg » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:31 pm

Since 'seeing' that my 'I still feel like me' thought was just that – a THOUGHT and not a FEELING lol, the actual thought is no longer there. It's a relief – it was puzzling. Since then, I've been querying the 'I' a lot more than I did, asking Who is this 'I' who still feels like ME? Who is this ME that is felt? And re-phrasing the question whenever something else comes up – watching thoughts and questioning each thought – WHO is turning over in bed? Is there an 'I' anywhere? An experiencer? An observer? Look! 125 times since last night actually – lolololol – after I told you I looked dozens of times a day, I thought I'd better check to see if that was actually true lol.

I'm thinking that this looking, even if I never 'realise' the illusion, is incredibly useful – seeing what goes on in the mind – seeing the rubbish we think and believe. So grateful for your guiding Vivien, and for the existence of LU.

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Vivien
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Re: Synelg

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:51 pm

Hi Synelg,
I've just realised that the 'I still feel like me' is a thought.
Exactly! You’ve discovered something very important.

Be careful with expressions with ‘SEEMS’. A SEEMING thing is NOT an actual thing.

Every time a sentence starts with “it seems” or “it feels like” is the sure sign that what will follow is just an analogy, just the content of a thought, and not an actual bodily sensation. It’s not coming from looking at AE directly, rather from thought speculation.
Can you see this?

Now let’s zoom on the process of decision making.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?

Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?
WHERE is the controller/me?
WHERE is the controller/me?

How is the decision made?
Is there a decision maker/me?


You might have done this exercise before, but nevertheless please do this many times before replying. Make sure that you are 100% certain of your replies.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Synelg
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Re: Synelg

Postby Synelg » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:39 am

Be careful with expressions with ‘SEEMS’. A SEEMING thing is NOT an actual thing.

Every time a sentence starts with “it seems” or “it feels like” is the sure sign that what will follow is just an analogy, just the content of a thought, and not an actual bodily sensation. It’s not coming from looking at AE directly, rather from thought speculation.
Can you see this?
Yes Yes - I know this! Was puzzled by your saying it. Thought "but I haven't USED 'it seems' have I? Went searching for where I might have used it and missed it. Took me a minute. ' I stiil FEEL like me' lololol. How dopey is that, missing that lololol.
Exactly! You’ve discovered something very important.
Yes, I knew it was important. :) It's made a difference.\
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
At first, I 'thought' "I'm going to raise my left hand", and I DID raise my left hand. Check the question. Oh - WITHOUT going to thoughts silly #*#.

No idea. laughs. No idea. No idea. Laughs again. What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? The hand just raises. If I open my eyes, it gets clearer still, that there's no decision being made, or not one that I'm aware of. Seeing trees, grass, and one of the hands raises. Without thoughts, and thoughts DO pop up, I have no idea what chooses which hand to raise.
Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?
No, absolutely not. No - that's obvious.
Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?
No, that's obvious. Absolutely not.
WHERE is the controller/me?
There isn't one
WHERE is the controller/me?
Nowhere. Looked everywhere. Nowhere. Not in the air, not in the feet, not in my hands, nowhere.
How is the decision made?
I HAVE NO IDEA
Is there a decision maker/me?
No, no and no.

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Vivien
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Re: Synelg

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:03 am

Hi Synelg,
Yes Yes - I know this! Was puzzled by your saying it. Thought "but I haven't USED 'it seems' have I? Went searching for where I might have used it and missed it. Took me a minute. ' I stiil FEEL like me' lololol. How dopey is that, missing that lololol.
Nice! However, there is a warning here! :) be careful not to just dismiss the thoughts of “it feels like’ or ‘seems like’ or ‘it’s as if’… but every time you notice these thoughts, search for that seeming thing right away. So don’t just dismiss the thoughts and do nothing, but actively search for it to see it in experience that there is indeed nothing there.

Go and make a cup of tea or coffee. As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of going to the kettle, switching it on, getting the cup (etc) when 'you' control the process?

How the decision is made what to make a cup of tea or coffee?
Do ‘you’ choose putting or not putting milk into the tea (or coffee)?
Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?
Do ‘you’ 'make the cup of tea (or coffee) happen' or it just happens?
Can a chooser be located?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Synelg
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Re: Synelg

Postby Synelg » Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:01 am

How the decision is made what to make a cup of tea or coffee?
Prior to getting out of my chair, there were thoughts about whether to have a cup of tea or a savoury drink.

Just got up and walked over to the kitchen without any thoughts or any decision being made to do so. It happened automatically. I just lifted the kettle without any decision being made and turned on the tap without choosing to do so. No chooser. Just walked back to check the question. I did not choose to do so and didn't appear to be in control of doing that. It just happened.

Standing here wondering if I should have tea or a savoury drink. Just found myself taking the savoury drink out of the fridge without having chosen to do so. It just happened. I can't even remember why I went to the fridge. Walking back to check the questions - that just happened - I didn't control that, it just happened. No chooser. No self there.
Do ‘you’ choose putting or not putting milk into the tea (or coffee)?
Prior to getting up and during this process there were thoughts about whether or not to put soy milk in the drink, but in the actual moment, I did not see a chooser or a moment of choice or a me in any of this. I just found my hand on the soy milk carton.
Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?
It just happens automatically
Do ‘you’ 'make the cup of tea (or coffee) happen' or it just happens?
It just happens
Can a chooser be located?
No
Are there any moments in the whole process where 'you' control the process?
I can't see that - I can't see anywhere 'I'm' in control. I just walked back to check the questions again without any decision that I can see to do that. 'I'm' obviously not in control of the process. No, I can't see that there's anyone in control of this.

I did quite a number of things afterwards, cleaned up the sink, found my cup, tidied up. There was no control of anything and no controller, no chooser and definitely no me. Just things happening. All on automatic.
there is a warning here! :) be careful not to just dismiss the thoughts of “it feels like’ or ‘seems like’ or ‘it’s as if’… but every time you notice these thoughts, search for that seeming thing right away. So don’t just dismiss the thoughts and do nothing, but actively search for it to see it in experience that there is indeed nothing there.
I have made a note of this and I will watch for this. Thankyou.

Vivien, if you ask me to do the 'choosing' exercise with a food that I 'shouldn't' have, I've been thinking about what food I think I 'shouldn't' have for weeks and just can't think of one. I'm such a pig - if I think about a food I want then I'm going to eat it. I've always thought that if we had a famine, that I would beat little children out of the way to get to the food. If I buy chocolate or any food I want, I have a hard time not eating it before I've got to the checkout - it's usually in my mouth before I've got out of the shop door. Bit of a worry.....

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Vivien
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Re: Synelg

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:21 am

Vivien, if you ask me to do the 'choosing' exercise with a food that I 'shouldn't' have, I've been thinking about what food I think I 'shouldn't' have for weeks and just can't think of one. I'm such a pig - if I think about a food I want then I'm going to eat it. I've always thought that if we had a famine, that I would beat little children out of the way to get to the food. If I buy chocolate or any food I want, I have a hard time not eating it before I've got to the checkout - it's usually in my mouth before I've got out of the shop door. Bit of a worry.....
Let’s try this out. :) Watch like a hawk!

Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully


Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
How exactly the decision is made?


Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Synelg
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Re: Synelg

Postby Synelg » Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:41 am

I don't have any food in my house that I think I 'shouldn't' eat! I don't buy food that I don't think I should eat and bring it home. I always buy something when I shop and stuff it madly it on the spot, but I don't bring it home. I had to improvise and go over to my neighbour's house (for which I have a key), and STEAL some food from her (thank goodness she's a good friend and knows that I see food and eat it and will understand. I hope).

First of all, while I was there, I ate two slices of toast and peanut butter before I came back with crackers and biscuits. No decision made. I just saw food and ate it. And I got some crackers and biscuits and ate some on the way back to my house :(.

So, I'm sitting here now, with a pile of the biscuits in front of me. I'm looking at it, inspecting it, smelling it. Oh god it smells good, and there's no EMERGING desire to eat it, the desire was there on the way over to her house! I know I'm going to eat it.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.
What cons? I've already stolen it and touched it - can't take it back now. And why shouldn't I eat them? Well, they're sugar and fat I suppose, and they're not particularly good for me, but but I'm not overweight and this once isn't going to hurt at all. Not at all.
Pros? Omg, I just WANT to eat it. There's no choice to be made. I KNOW I'm going to eat it.
Try to think of more cons... Can't think of any reason I should NOT eat these biscuits and corn chips. AND go get some more and just apologise.
I cannot think of ANY reasons why I should not eat these biscuits and corn chips. I don't have any opposing thoughts. oh dear.
What is it that is considering these options?
. . . . . I don't know. There's just an intense desire to stick these things in my mouth and TASTE them.
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully
There's nothing listing pros and cons. There's just listing pros and cons. And there are no cons.
Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?
I can't remember making any decision - I just knew that I was going to eat the food if I went over there to steal it. Nothing made the thought appear. It was there.
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
No I can't find anything that made that decision. I saw the food and I knew I was going to eat it. No-one makes the decision.
How exactly the decision is made?
No idea. I have absolutely no control over the decision.
Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?
Thank god. Hand reached out and it's in my mouth before I've finished reading the question.. Nothing performed the action. The hand just grabbed and I ate.

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Vivien
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Re: Synelg

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:55 am

Hi Synelg,
I don't have any food in my house that I think I 'shouldn't' eat! I don't buy food that I don't think I should eat and bring it home. I always buy something when I shop and stuff it madly it on the spot, but I don't bring it home. I had to improvise and go over to my neighbour's house (for which I have a key), and STEAL some food from her (thank goodness she's a good friend and knows that I see food and eat it and will understand. I hope).
I hope you don’t get into trouble :)

Do you have more biscuits left? If yes, put in front of you, and just feel the desire.
If you don’t have any biscuits left, then just imagine having them in front of you.

Imagine that there is a rope, coming out of this desire. So at one end of the rope, there is the desire.
At the other end of the rope, there is the me/I which this desire is happening to. The one who desires.

So the desire is linked (by the rope) to ME, like this:

Desire ---------------------------------------------- ME

And now look very carefully.

The desire is clearly there.
But is there a ME at the other end?
Is the desire linked to anything? Or it’s just free floating?
And if you look very closely, do you find an actual rope or a link at all in experience?


Please, repeat this many times before replying.
You can experiment with other things too, anything you have a desire for (a warm bath, a good sleep, anything).

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Synelg
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Re: Synelg

Postby Synelg » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:22 am

My neighbour forgave me thank goodness.
Do you have more biscuits left?
rolls eyes...
They were gone in seconds. Had to go steal some more.

Desire – Thought – ' I want some liquorice'.
Imagined that thought being in a bubble stuck above my head
Imagined a rope dangling out of it, trying to link to an 'I/me'
The rope doesn't get very long because the end of it is wiggling around uncertainly, trying to find an 'I/me' which it can't.
What IS present, is still the taste sensations from the crackers and biscuits I ate, even though I've cleaned my teeth trying to get rid of them as they were so intense. I try again and again with the thought of liquorice instead, and attention goes straight to the mouth, but the rope doesn't go anywhere.

Desire – Thought – 'I desire lots and lots of money'
At first I tried to imagine the thought inside my head, but I had trouble imagining a rope getting in there, so I had to imagine the thought above my head again. Rope attached to it. Going to find the 'I/me' that the desire for lots of money is happening to . . .actually, I'm having a bit of trouble getting the rope attached to the thought, never mind finding an 'I/me'.

Desire – Thought – 'I would like to get my eyebrows microbladed'
I really am having trouble getting this rope attached to thoughts, never mind to an 'I/me'.

Desire – Thought – 'I would really like to buy a portable field shelter for my old horse'
This time the thought came as a long visual sentence, but I still could get the rope attached to the thought at one end and couldn't find an 'I/me' at the other end either.

I tried with several other things, but I'm not sure I have huge desires for anything much these days. Except scrummy food once I start eating it. That IS a worry – I now worry that I might have an 'I/me' hidden in my mouth.
But is there a ME at the other end?
Is the desire linked to anything? Or it’s just free floating?
Not that I can find. In the experience I had, the desire isn't attached to anything.
And if you look very closely, do you find an actual rope or a link at all in experience?
I can't find an 'actual rope' or a link to anything, but I may not be understanding the question correctly.

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Synelg
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Re: Synelg

Postby Synelg » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:29 am

Oh, forgot to say. I tried first with the second lot of biscuits and crackers that I stole. It was really difficult concentrating on anything but the sensation in my mouth from the aftertaste of the first lot of biscuits. I meant to do the exercise 7 times with the 7 items I stole, but after eating the first cracker, I just stuffed the rest in. And at first I couldn't even see the 'desire' until I went onto the money desire and found that the desire was a thought. Then I realised that the desire for the biscuits must be a thought also. And it was. I so hope I haven't got an 'I/me' hidden in my mouth.


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