The Tipping Point

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:21 am

Hi Vivien,

Continuing from last night...
And what if there is nothing that can be said that ‘this is what I am’?
What if for searching for the answer to “what I am” is the opposite direction where the answer is?
Then I am willing to let this concept go, too. I don't want to be going in the opposite direction.
Is there an ‘I’ that could be anything?
Look for the ‘I’ that could say ‘this is what I am’.
Where is this I?
When I look there is no "I" to be found. It feels like I hit a brick wall - nothing to be found. The looking leaves a feeling of frustration, like why can't it be found when it's been refereed to my whole life. Where is it? Focusing on the word I and looking for it turns attention inward, but it can't be seen or grasped. More frustration not finding anything.
What is it that could awaken?
Look for the 'thing' that could awaken.
There is nothing that can be found that could awaken.

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:38 am

Hi Sandra,
I am absolutely willing to let go in order to see. I will give it my all. There are so many years of conditioning that it is difficult to just instantaneously let it all go, but I will continuously renew the commitment.
Very good.
All expectations, no matter what you expect is not what it is going to be like. Anytime you feel stuck, come back to expectations, if there is something that you think that should be happening, but it isn't- there is an expectation behind it. They are not useful but in the way.
Yes. This may mean I need more time between responses, but I will not respond unless I have looked and investigated without relying on memory at all.
That’s perfectly all right. What matters is not the frequency of your posts, but the quality and depth of your looking.
When I look there is no "I" to be found. It feels like I hit a brick wall - nothing to be found. The looking leaves a feeling of frustration, like why can't it be found when it's been refereed to my whole life. Where is it? Focusing on the word I and looking for it turns attention inward, but it can't be seen or grasped. More frustration not finding anything.
The frustration is coming from the mismatch of your belief (that there is a I) and what is seen in experience (that the I is cannot be found).
But you are doing very well. You can look beautifully. So just keep looking :)
like why can't it be found when it's been refereed to my whole life.
What is it that has a life?
What owns life?
Is life owned by an entity/self?
Or life is just ‘free-floating’, without belonging to anyone or anything?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:48 am

Hi Vivien,

Hope you had a nice weekend. I was tied up with a family member in need the last 24 hours, so I apologize for the delay in responding.
What is it that has a life?
When I look at life, it is a series of experiences that we give story to. This long history of events feels very personal. The thought is that they had to be happening to somebody! It's much harder looking at this "life" and not attaching it to someone than it is just looking at the present moment. But what is seen is this moment as truth would have had to also be true in every other moment in life. And in this moment, a me still can not be found or pointed to.
What owns life?
Nothing owns life. Life is free, infinite in possibility. No one or nothing has ownership of it.
Is life owned by an entity/self?
No. It only feels personal when we put the word "my" in front of it - My Life - but we know that there is no me, my or I.
Or life is just ‘free-floating’, without belonging to anyone or anything?
Life is just happening, unfolding and no one or nothing is in control of it. Life is happening in every moment - take nature for example - trees, birds, flowers, ocean, animals - none of that belongs to anyone - life is just occurring in infinite ways in every moment.

Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:02 am

Hi Sandra,
I was tied up with a family member in need the last 24 hours, so I apologize for the delay in responding.
No problem.
This long history of events feels very personal. The thought is that they had to be happening to somebody! It's much harder looking at this "life" and not attaching it to someone than it is just looking at the present moment.
And what is attaching someone to life? What performs the act of attaching?
It only feels personal when we put the word "my" in front of it - My Life - but we know that there is no me, my or I.
But WHO puts the word ‘my’ in front of life?

And when the word ‘my’ is put in front of the word ‘life’, does it actual make it FEEL personal?

HOW ‘life being personal’ is ACTUALLY FELT?

And who/what is FEELING life to be personal?

What is the FEELING of ‘personal’?


Please don’t write about theories, metaphors or imagination, but the ACTUAL PURE FEELING of life being personal.
This long history of events feels very personal.
HOW can a ‘though history’ can be FELT personal?

Can a thought be FELT? Really?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:23 am

Hi Vivien,
I am laid up with a bad cold. Will circle back with you in a day or two.
Thank you.
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:19 am

All right, take care :)
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:48 pm

Hi Vivien,
Cold turned into flu. Fever, sore throat, chills, etc. for two days.
I will get back to you again in a day or two. Down for the count.
Sandra

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:26 pm

S: This long history of events feels very personal. The thought is that they had to be happening to somebody! It's much harder looking at this "life" and not attaching it to someone than it is just looking at the present moment.
V: And what is attaching someone to life? What performs the act of attaching?
The process of attaching is just happening as thoughts, memories as thoughts. Is there a "me" having these thoughts? What is it that is able to recall past events in one's life? I can see how most thoughts just spontaneously arise and they are not chosen by a thinker. What happens when there is an intention to remember something from the past and the memories are recalled, and recalled as events that happened to "me"?
S: It only feels personal when we put the word "my" in front of it - My Life - but we know that there is no me, my or I.
But WHO puts the word ‘my’ in front of life?
My is used to communicate which person we are referring to. There is something here that uses the word my to make that reference. If not a who, then a what? The choice of the words "my life" points to this person who represents a lifetime of experiences.
V: And when the word ‘my’ is put in front of the word ‘life’, does it actual make it FEEL personal?
Maybe not, it's more of giving a reference point that a feeling.

HOW ‘life being personal’ is ACTUALLY FELT?
If "my" points to a specific individual (me), then it brings attention to this reference point and is felt or perceived as here/personal - but perceived as a thought, not by an actual FEELING.
And who/what is FEELING life to be personal?
The closer I look at it the more I see it's really not a FEELING but rather a thought or belief that life is personal - an assumption.


What is the FEELING of ‘personal’?
Personal is felt as focused attention toward oneself.

I'm finding these questions challenging. Hard to look and find the answers. Hoping for more clarity as we move forward.

Thanks, Vivien.

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:48 am

Hi Sandra,
If "my" points to a specific individual (me), then it brings attention to this reference point and is felt or perceived as here/personal - but perceived as a thought, not by an actual FEELING.
Is this coming from looking? Since it sounds very intellectual. It’s a speculation.
V: What is the FEELING of ‘personal’?
S: Personal is felt as focused attention toward oneself.
In the previous comment you wrote that ‘personal’ is not an actual feeling, but a thought.
But now you say that it’s felt.

Sandra, you didn’t look with these question. You THOUGHT ABOUT these questions.
Thinking and looking are very different things.
One is successful, the other is a dead end.
There is something here that uses the word my to make that reference. If not a who, then a what? The choice of the words "my life" points to this person who represents a lifetime of experiences.
Point with your finger (literally) to the person ‘who represents a lifetime of experiences’.
Where do you point at?
The process of attaching is just happening as thoughts, memories as thoughts. Is there a "me" having these thoughts? What is it that is able to recall past events in one's life? I can see how most thoughts just spontaneously arise and they are not chosen by a thinker. What happens when there is an intention to remember something from the past and the memories are recalled, and recalled as events that happened to "me"?
Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears?
In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:18 pm

S: There is something here that uses the word my to make that reference. If not a who, then a what? The choice of the words "my life" points to this person who represents a lifetime of experiences.

V: Point with your finger (literally) to the person ‘who represents a lifetime of experiences’.
Where do you point at?
OK... starting over. Pointing at the person, "me" who represents a lifetime of experiences, I point my finger at myself/ my body. I feel silly doing this because I know I am not my body. But it "feels like" there is a me in here, inside this body, typing these words, looking at the screen, deciding what to write. It's disappointing to be back here again. Maybe I"m not doing the looking properly? Is there something you can offer to clarify the process of looking? I don't think I'm thinking about your questions, but my answers seem to indicate that I am. I am ready to progress and don't want to waste time.
S: The process of attaching is just happening as thoughts, memories as thoughts. Is there a "me" having these thoughts? What is it that is able to recall past events in one's life? I can see how most thoughts just spontaneously arise and they are not chosen by a thinker. What happens when there is an intention to remember something from the past and the memories are recalled, and recalled as events that happened to "me"?

V: Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears?
In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?
In the case where random thoughts just appear in the mind, there is no determining thought before it happens. Thought appears out of nowhere and is only known as it appears. However, if you were to say to me.... think back to a time when you were 10 years old, thought/memory would be immediately directed to that time in "my life". Or, for example, with something in the present moment - perhaps answering the question "what did you do today" - there "seems to be" a remembering/thinking that takes place and the words to describe the experience are somehow chosen by "me".
So it appears that there is thinking that just happens (random, spontaneous) and then there is deliberate thinking. Yes?
I know we've been here before, and I'm sorry about that. Doing my best to see.

Maybe this would be a good time to ask this question - I am stuck in very negative thinking about a person/situation in my life and would like to stop because it is creating a lot of difficulty. The negative thoughts just keep relentlessly reappearing. Is it even possible to stop this cycle if I am not the one doing the thinking? What's happening here? I wish so badly to get this now!

Thanks for all your help.
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:45 pm

Hi Sandra,
I’m going to give you several sets of questions to look at thoughts in the following days. There might be some repetition, but that is what is needed here. Please always look afresh with every single question, and never rely on the memory of a previous looking, even when it was clearly seen several times. Always look again.

Also, stay with the questions for a whole day, looking again and again. Be very thorough.
Maybe this would be a good time to ask this question - I am stuck in very negative thinking about a person/situation in my life and would like to stop because it is creating a lot of difficulty. The negative thoughts just keep relentlessly reappearing. Is it even possible to stop this cycle if I am not the one doing the thinking? What's happening here? I wish so badly to get this now!
What is thinking these negative thoughts, the character Sandra?
Look, is the me-character the creator or the created? What is that creates?
Is the character in the story creating what happens in the story or the story about the character creates itself, one thought at a time?
Is the me-character thinking?
Or are thoughts coming up by themselves?
What do you do in order to think?
Is there a thinker?
Can a thought think?

Please reply to every question one-by-one.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:33 am

Thank you, Vivien. I will do as you suggest and be in touch when the looking feels thorough enough to respond.
I appreciate your guidance.
Love,
Sandra

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:05 pm

What is thinking these negative thoughts, the character Sandra?
It has always appeared that it was the character, Sandra, who was thinking the negative thoughts. Upon looking, there is no one thinking the thoughts - they just arise out of nowhere and there's not way of predicting what those thoughts will be. The character Sandra doesn’t choose to have them or decide what thoughts to have, they just (relentlessly) appear out of nowhere and then disappear and then another one pops in out of nowhere.
Look, is the me-character the creator or the created? What is that creates?
The me character is created by the never-ending thoughts that become the character's story. The more thoughts, the more complicated the me character becomes. I was noticing today that there are no problems without thoughts. Without thoughts, everything just is - life is just happening and is being experienced. It's neither good nor bad, but it's certainly easier. As soon as thoughts chime in they create all the judgment, resistance and negativity. If thoughts are not followed then I can just keep returning to present moment and the experience of ease.
Is the character in the story creating what happens in the story or the story about the character creates itself, one thought at a time?
I can see how one thought leads to another and another and the cumulation of thoughts creates a story.
Is the me-character thinking? Or are thoughts coming up by themselves?
The me character isn't real, it's just a compilation of thoughts and stories - so it can't think. A me can not be found - it cant me seen, hears, smelled, tasted or felt. Thoughts just arise out of nowhere. It has always been assumed that the me inside this body is doing the thinking. When I look, I can't find the origin of thoughts nor can I see how "I" create them. They just happen. According to direct experience, the me I thought I was is not the thinker.
What do you do in order to think?
I can't identify and actual thinking process. The best I can come up with is thinking is more like just introducing the question and then the answers just appear.
Is there a thinker?
In DE, no there is not a thinker. Thinking happens. My mind keeps wanting to claim the role as thinker, but in DE all I see is thoughts arising.
Can a thought think?
Absolutely not! A thought is perceived - it has no thinking power.

Thank you, Vivien.

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:28 am

Hi Sandra,
It has always appeared that it was the character, Sandra, who was thinking the negative thoughts. Upon looking, there is no one thinking the thoughts - they just arise out of nowhere and there's not way of predicting what those thoughts will be. The character Sandra doesn’t choose to have them or decide what thoughts to have, they just (relentlessly) appear out of nowhere and then disappear and then another one pops in out of nowhere.
Nice looking.
I was noticing today that there are no problems without thoughts. Without thoughts, everything just is - life is just happening and is being experienced. It's neither good nor bad, but it's certainly easier. As soon as thoughts chime in they create all the judgment, resistance and negativity. If thoughts are not followed then I can just keep returning to present moment and the experience of ease.
And what is it that returns to the present moment? The me-character?
Or is there another me outside of the story which sometimes in the story and other times it comes out of the story and returns to the present moment?
My mind keeps wanting to claim the role as thinker, but in DE all I see is thoughts arising.
Is there a kind of entity called "mind" that does something, like ‘wanting to claim the role of the thinker’?
Can you point to the ‘mind’ here now? Can you find one?

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:51 am

S:As soon as thoughts chime in they create all the judgment, resistance and negativity. If thoughts are not followed then I can just keep returning to present moment and the experience of ease.
V: And what is it that returns to the present moment? The me-character?
Or is there another me outside of the story which sometimes in the story and other times it comes out of the story and returns to the present moment?
Neither of those! Let me rephrase this: If thoughts are not followed then what is left is only the experience of life happening, without all the chatter (which I labeled as the present moment)
Is there a kind of entity called "mind" that does something, like ‘wanting to claim the role of the thinker’?
Can you point to the ‘mind’ here now? Can you find one?
No! Let me rephrase this too :-) ....that's an old, assumed perspective. What I'm calling mind is just the habit of perceiving myself as the thinker. I cannot find a mind and even if I did it would not have the power to claim anything!
How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?
It is an imaginary, conditioned perception that does not exist. It cannot be found in DE. Its a label given to describe the process of the thoughts that constantly arise that I previously thought "I" was responsible for doing.

-Sandra


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