The Tipping Point

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:46 am

Hi Sandra,
even though I said it "feels like: I'm thinking or choosing. Maybe it's not a feeling at all.
Yes! Maybe this not a feeling at all.
If it appears or seems to be, doesn't mean that it is.
Exactly! You’ve discovered something very important.

Be careful with expressions with ‘SEEMS’. A SEEMING thing is NOT an actual thing.

Every time a sentence starts with “it seems” or “it feels like” is the sure sign that what will follow is just an analogy, just the content of a thought, and not an actual bodily sensation. It’s not coming from looking at AE directly, rather from thought speculation.
Can you see this?
The feeling of thinking is really just the awareness of thoughts arising.
Try everything you can to FEEL a thought. Is it possible? Can a thought be felt?
Like the thought "either I can go for a walk or take a drive", then one is chosen and that choice is executed. It feels like a choice is being made. What does this choosing feel like? The feeling is an impulse to move in a specific direction.
“It FEELS LIKE a choice is being made” – can you see the trick of thoughts here?

Is an impulse to move = choosing?
Or the impulse of move is just a sensation?

The feeling of choice/choosing is trickier - it's being aware of the different thoughts that have arisen and then putting attention in one direction or another.
Let’s take a look at the idea that there is a someone who is focusing attention.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?

Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?

The I is just a sense, a feeling that there is a me located within the body. What does it feel like? a presence.
Please focus on this ‘feeling of presence’. What kind of feeling is it?
Please avoid speculations or analogies.

I’ve given you lots of questions this time. Please don’t rush through them. So it slowly and be very thorough.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:04 am

Every time a sentence starts with “it seems” or “it feels like” is the sure sign that what will follow is just an analogy, just the content of a thought, and not an actual bodily sensation. It’s not coming from looking at AE directly, rather from thought speculation.
Can you see this?
Yes, I can definitely see how it seems or feels like is not a real thing. Definitely.
Try everything you can to FEEL a thought. Is it possible? Can a thought be felt?
No, there is only awareness of a thought.
“It FEELS LIKE a choice is being made” – can you see the trick of thoughts here?
Yes!
Is an impulse to move = choosing? Or the impulse of move is just a sensation?
Impulse is a very subtle sensation. So subtle that it is barely noticeable.
Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?
Attention/Focus/Awareness jumps from sound to sound on it's own without needing to do any focusing, Again, when I intentionally focus on a sound, it "feels like" it's "me" who is focusing. But then I remind myself that "feels like" does not mean it's real - is there a focuser in actual experience? I cannot find one.
Who decides what to focus on? It "seems like" I do - but I remind myself "seems like" doesn't make it real... So, is there a decider? No, deciding just takes place - it just happens.
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?
Attention just moves on it's own. Even when I try to keep it focused on the breath, inevitably attention moves to some other thought, sensation or sound. Attention moves spontaneously, without intention or effort.
Thought is not in control of attention. Attention goes where it wants to go. This must be why most people say they can't meditate - because they can't control their attention.

When I look, all of this is clear. When I am not looking deeply, I still "feel" like the focuser/doer/decider.
How can the experience of looking be integrated into the non-looking state?

Thanks so much, Vivien!

Love,
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:39 am

Hi Sandra,
Who decides what to focus on? It "seems like" I do - but I remind myself "seems like" doesn't make it real... So, is there a decider? No, deciding just takes place - it just happens.
You have to be careful to not just intellectually convince yourself that seems like doesn’t make it real, but you have to look for the decider again and again. It’s easy to get into the trap to intellectually reminding yourself, but the key here is the repeated looking and searching.
When I look, all of this is clear. When I am not looking deeply, I still "feel" like the focuser/doer/decider.
How can the experience of looking be integrated into the non-looking state?
Just make an intention to look as often as you can during the day.

Please go to the fridge and take out some food or drink. Watch like a hawk.
How is a decision is made?
WHAT is making the decision?


During the day when there is a seeming choosing or decision making is happening, look for the exact moment when choosing happening.
Is there a chooser at ANY time?

You forgot to look at the last question, here it is again:
The I is just a sense, a feeling that there is a me located within the body. What does it feel like? a presence.
Please focus on this ‘feeling of presence’. What kind of feeling is it?

Please avoid speculations or analogies.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:45 am

OK, thank you for the guidance, Vivien.
It has been a long day so I will do as you suggest and get back to you tomorrow.
I appreciate your time and attention.
Love,
Sandra

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:41 pm

Hi Vivien,

Here's what I saw/experienced today:

This process pokes holes into the veil of illusion. The more I practice the more truth shines through.

Looking, there is no actual me to be found - only spaciousness, presence, awareness.

The sense of presence is "I am here", “I exist”, and then it is seen that I am existence itself. I exist as this awake presence, aware of all that arises and falls within the space, and none of that - sensations, feelings, thoughts are me.

The me that was once seen as the one controlling everything does not exist, that me is a belief, a concept, old conditioning. What “I” really am is existence itself. I exist. I am.

Just like all of life - animals, trees, plants, birds - there is not a thinker deciding how to grow, eat, bloom. These things just happen. Existence expresses though all of life as life. I am not an exception - I am a part of life and life expresses through me in the same way as it does all else.

The key now is consistently watch and look for this truth as often as possible every day. Notice how life just happens - how actions, decisions, thoughts, feelings, sensations just happen, without a doer instructing it all.

Choosing and decision making in every situation happen spontaneously.The choice or decisions just arise and then action takes place effortlessly, without someone doing it.

Thanks in advance for your feedback and continued guidance.

Love,
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:59 pm

Hi Sandra,
The sense of presence is "I am here", “I exist”, and then it is seen that I am existence itself. I exist as this awake presence, aware of all that arises and falls within the space, and none of that - sensations, feelings, thoughts are me.

How is this 'sense of presence' is actually sensed? Sensed by what?
What kind of sense is it?

How is this ‘awake aware presence’ is perceived exactly?
As a thought? A sensation? An imagination? Or else?


Please don’t rush, seeing this awareness/presence clearly for what it’s actually is is essential. So be very thorough, and look many-many times before replying. Make sure that you are 100% sure of your reply.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:03 am

Ok, Vivien. I will take my time with this and reply to you tomorrow.
Thank you.

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:22 pm

Good Morning, Vivien.
How is this 'sense of presence' is actually sensed? Sensed by what?
What kind of sense is it?
How is this ‘awake aware presence’ is perceived exactly?
As a thought? A sensation? An imagination? Or else?
Presence is known by the same awareness as thoughts, sensations, sounds. I see the presence and awareness as one in the same, so awareness knowing awareness. The presence never changes, comes or goes - it is always there unlike thoughts, sensations, sounds, etc. It just is. There is quality of liveliness, spaciousness and ease. As I sense it my body relaxes, especially in the abdomen and heart area. Like the spaciousness fills up those places in the body and all stress, resistance, constriction and holding is released. All that is left is peacefulness and ease, a relaxed sense of being among a backdrop of peace, heart opening and expansion, a welling up of joy. Sitting with eyes closed, feeling into the experience, not wanting to come out. Relaxed, easeful, joy. Love. Thoughts come and go, sounds come and go, and the backdrop of peace, joy and ease remains. Mind wants to come in and latch on to the experience, then is seen for what it is and is gently released. More heart expansion. Will sit with this and report more later.
Love,
Sandra

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:01 pm

Good Evening Vivien,

The rest of the day I have felt peaceful, present and grounded.
Been paying attention to thoughts that arise and watching them come and go, sometimes intentionally releasing them when I realized I was lost in thought. Also paid attention to the concepts of doer and decider want noticing how everything just happens. As you have suggested, this paying attention throughout the day is so important and so I'll continue to do so.

I look forward to receiving tonights guidance.

Love,
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:44 pm

Hi Sandra,
Presence is known by the same awareness as thoughts, sensations, sounds. I see the presence and awareness as one in the same, so awareness knowing awareness. The presence never changes, comes or goes - it is always there unlike thoughts, sensations, sounds, etc. It just is. There is quality of liveliness, spaciousness and ease. As I sense it my body relaxes, especially in the abdomen and heart area. Like the spaciousness fills up those places in the body and all stress, resistance, constriction and holding is released. All that is left is peacefulness and ease, a relaxed sense of being among a backdrop of peace, heart opening and expansion, a welling up of joy.
You are mistaking sensations for presence or awareness.
Sitting with eyes closed, feeling into the experience, not wanting to come out. Relaxed, easeful, joy. Love. Thoughts come and go, sounds come and go, and the backdrop of peace, joy and ease remains.
You are mistaking emotions (which is also felt as sensations) with awareness/presence too.

What if awareness is not what you believe it to be?
Can you entertain the possibility that awareness or presence is not what it seems to be?


Nowadays, awareness is a very popular spiritual concept. So let’s investigate if this concept is actually in line with experience.
I see the presence and awareness as one in the same, so awareness knowing awareness.
Can you see that this is a conceptualization? That it’s a logical thinking?

You seem to have an intellectual picture of something you're calling 'awareness' or ‘presence’.
Right now it's a concept. Can you find them in reality?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:44 am

Hi Vivien,

I guess I wasn't clear about what I communicated this morning. That was not my description of presence.I was sharing with you what I experienced during deep looking. I was not associating those sensations or emotions as presence itself.

Being that I only have a few minutes now to respond, I will again have to get back to you in the morning.

Thank you,
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:49 am

Hi Sandra,

Before you reply to those questions:
I was not associating those sensations or emotions as presence itself.
You are not aware that you are doing this. That’s why I pointed out for you, what is there is actually just sensations. But you don’t see them as sensations, since thoughts label them as ‘presence’, and you don’t see this labelling either. But it’s just a trick what you cannot see at the moment.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:36 am

Hi Vivien,
You are mistaking emotions (which is also felt as sensations) with awareness/presence too.
What if awareness is not what you believe it to be?
Can you entertain the possibility that awareness or presence is not what it seems to be?
Yes, I can entertain and accept that. Previously I said that presence is the sense that I exist, I am here, a sense of being, which to me also has the subtle quality of aliveness (or liveliness, in other words, its not flat). When I look I can see that all thoughts, sensations, sounds, emotions etc arise within the silence of being. This beingness never changes and is always there. If we revisit Presence from here, where would you like me to look next?

You seem to have an intellectual picture of something you're calling 'awareness' or ‘presence’.
Right now it's a concept. Can you find them in reality?
What I have been finding and calling awareness or presence is the silent backdrop within all thoughts, emotions, sensations, sounds, etc. arise within. This does not feel like an intellectual conclusion. Can you tell me a way of knowing for sure, a way of discerning? Because I don't see it that way and now I am confused.

Thank you,
Sandra

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:50 pm

Hi Vivien,

I want you to know that I am wiping the slate clean again and will meet your next set of instructions with a beginners mind.
Thank you for your patience.

Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:59 pm

Hi Sandra,
What I have been finding and calling awareness or presence is the silent backdrop within all thoughts, emotions, sensations, sounds, etc. arise within.
An awareness waiting in the background for experience (sensation, thought, sound, taste, smell, color) to arise could seem very real. But actually, this is the bases of the illusion of the self. So what we are investigate if there is actually an independent stand-alone awareness waiting in the background, or this is just another illusion.

Please look at these questions very one-by-one. Spend several minutes with each. Please don't rush, be thorough.

Is there a thought + the awareness of it?

Where does the thought end and the awareness of it starts?

Where is the dividing line between the thought and the awareness of it?

Is this awareness/presence you talk about something separate from all the rest?

Looking happens - how do you know awareness/presence is what is looking?

Does this awareness/presence have a shape, a location, a weight? Can you point to this awareness?

Is awareness/presence something other than, different to, or separate from experience (what is)?

Can you find anything at all that is called ‘awareness or presence’, or do you just find experience (what is)?

In other words, is there a knower and the known? Or is there only the known?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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