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domostroy
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Re: ja

Postby domostroy » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:13 am

So the separatedness thing is basically thoughts and an illusion that something more is going on?

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Vivien
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Re: ja

Postby Vivien » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:14 am

Hi Jaro,
Well... I've checked many times lately, right now is no different.
Great! Thanks for checking it again.

A few days ago, you wrote:
I am still confused about the whole separate self and separateness thing. I don't have a distinct sensation of being separate, but I don't have a sensation of being non-separate either. Maybe it's a misconception on my part, maybe it will clear up in time.
How do you see the notion of separation now?
Can you find anything separate from what is happening right here now?

Is there a separate knower/experiencer, separate from experience?

Is separation or non-separation a feeling/sensation?
If not, what is it?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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domostroy
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Re: ja

Postby domostroy » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:45 pm


How do you see the notion of separation now?
I understand it. I'm not separate from what I experience, but is it like knowing there is no "me" and experiencing there is no "me"? This knowledge doesn't change anything. Or does it? I have an urge to explore this further, like I'm not done here yet.

Can you find anything separate from what is happening right here now?
No. Just thoughts that there are other factors at play which help to create an illusion that there are. The experience of non-separateness needs stillness and focus in my case. Even then, I would not call it "non-separatedness" but something like "pure experience".

Is there a separate knower/experiencer, separate from experience?
No, but there is a thinker. No, just kidding. There are thoughts, most often labeling and narration, that distract from the pure experience. Although, of course, thoughts are part of the general experience.

Is separation or non-separation a feeling/sensation?
Separation is not a feeling/sensation in my case. Maybe non-separation is, I don't know. I plan to find a more definite answer.

If not, what is it?
Going by my experience at the moment: thoughts.

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Vivien
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Re: ja

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:54 am

Hi Jaro,
Separation is not a feeling/sensation in my case. Maybe non-separation is, I don't know. I plan to find a more definite answer.
Please focus on the FEELING/sensation of ‘non-separation’.
How does no-separation is actually experienced?
As a sensation? Thought? Imagination? Something else?
V: How do you see the notion of separation now?
J: I understand it. I'm not separate from what I experience, but is it like knowing there is no "me" and experiencing there is no "me"? This knowledge doesn't change anything. Or does it? I have an urge to explore this further, like I'm not done here yet.
Unfortunately, it’s not enough to understand this. Understanding happens conceptually only.

How no-me is experienced exactly?
As a sensation? Sound? Thought? Visual thought? Something else?
I'm not separate from what I experience,
What is this ‘I’ that is not separate from what it experiences?
Please don’t just say that there is no I/self, but really LOOK for it.
The experience of non-separateness needs stillness and focus in my case. Even then, I would not call it "non-separatedness" but something like "pure experience".
Do you think that the non-separation is when there are no thoughts present?
Is there ‘pure experience’ and ‘non-pure experience’?
There are thoughts, most often labeling and narration, that distract from the pure experience.
How do you know that narrating and labelling thoughts are distant from 'pure experience'?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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domostroy
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Re: ja

Postby domostroy » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:45 pm


How does no-separation is actually experienced?
As a sensation? Thought? Imagination? Something else?
I don't know. I don't experience anything I would call no-separation, just like I don't experience anything I would call separation. Those are just concepts at the moment. I experience the immediacy of sensory input, so I probably intellectually understand the concept of no-separation. I don't experience sound being made, traveling through the air, ears doing the hearing, a hearer. There is just sound appearing. There is no separation there. If that's no-separation then I experienced it that way my whole life, but there were illusions of more things happening than sound just appearing, I guess. I thought before that the disappearance of the illusion of "I" goes hand in hand with percieving this no-separation in an obvious way. It seems they don't necessarily go hand in hand.

How no-me is experienced exactly?
As a sensation? Sound? Thought? Visual thought? Something else?
I meant the switch from intellectual understanding to something different. I can't say no-me is any kind of sensory experience. There are just thoughts about symptoms of the absence of "me". So there are thoughts ABOUT no-me, but no direct experience that would make sense being called "no-me".


What is this ‘I’ that is not separate from what it experiences?

I have spent most of the day on this question, thinking about it and trying to "experience my way to the source". Thoughts say there must be SOMETHING. There is this reflex to call this something "conciousness", "awareness" or "brain", to put something back inside the head. But there is no EXPERIENCE of anything like that. I realized that if I found anything, it couldn't be IT. It just would be another appearance. So there is either nothing, or there is something that can't be known. It was a big realization, but then I realized of course that I've heard the notion of "the unknowable" before. Hah, I rediscovered America. There ends the investigation. Anyway, everything I can experience is just sensory input (including sensations and feelings) and thoughts. Your Buddha footer quote makes more sense than ever now. No reciever of the sight. Just seeing and the seen and they cannot be separated in any meaningful way. No border between them, they are one. No "I" or anything else like "conciousness" that can be experienced. Just sensory input and thoughts.

Do you think that the non-separation is when there are no thoughts present?
Is there ‘pure experience’ and ‘non-pure experience’?
No, nothing like that, that's why I put "pure experience" in quotation marks. There is just experience. I meant I get more in touch with the immediacy of seeing, hearing etc when there are less or no thoughts. When focusing.


How do you know that narrating and labelling thoughts are distant from 'pure experience'?

I don't. I don't think that they are. There is just experiencing and thoughts are part of it.

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Vivien
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Re: ja

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:45 pm

Hi Jaro,
I don't know. I don't experience anything I would call no-separation, just like I don't experience anything I would call separation. Those are just concepts at the moment. I experience the immediacy of sensory input, so I probably intellectually understand the concept of no-separation. I don't experience sound being made, traveling through the air, ears doing the hearing, a hearer. There is just sound appearing. There is no separation there. If that's no-separation then I experienced it that way my whole life, but there were illusions of more things happening than sound just appearing, I guess. I thought before that the disappearance of the illusion of "I" goes hand in hand with percieving this no-separation in an obvious way. It seems they don't necessarily go hand in hand.
The problem is that you are intellectualizing this. It seems that you have heard about the notion of non-separation, and now you are clinging to the idea that you have to get to that state where there is no separation. So you are clinging to a leaned idea.

What do you expect to gain by getting into a state of non-separation?

Non-separation cannot exist without separation. So, please describe me the experience of separation.

How separation itself is experienced?
I meant the switch from intellectual understanding to something different. I can't say no-me is any kind of sensory experience. There are just thoughts about symptoms of the absence of "me". So there are thoughts ABOUT no-me, but no direct experience that would make sense being called "no-me".
How could the absence of something be experienced? How could the absence of a cup be experienced?

What is your evidence that there is no self?
How do you know?
I have spent most of the day on this question, thinking about it and trying to "experience my way to the source". Thoughts say there must be SOMETHING. There is this reflex to call this something "conciousness", "awareness" or "brain", to put something back inside the head. But there is no EXPERIENCE of anything like that. I realized that if I found anything, it couldn't be IT. It just would be another appearance. So there is either nothing, or there is something that can't be known. It was a big realization, but then I realized of course that I've heard the notion of "the unknowable" before. Hah, I rediscovered America.
The problem again, that you are THINKING about this. What you wrote above is nothing else than a thought speculation.
And all your realization you talk about is on the intellectual level only. It’s not an experiential one.

You might not like what I say, but this thinking and thinking is not helping you at all.

Do you remember that a few days ago you wrote that you are done with thinking? Well, now you are back into thinking again.
Anyway, everything I can experience is just sensory input (including sensations and feelings) and thoughts. Your Buddha footer quote makes more sense than ever now. No reciever of the sight. Just seeing and the seen and they cannot be separated in any meaningful way. No border between them, they are one. No "I" or anything else like "conciousness" that can be experienced. Just sensory input and thoughts.
This part is what is coming from looking.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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domostroy
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Re: ja

Postby domostroy » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:31 am


What do you expect to gain by getting into a state of non-separation?
I don't know. Really. Like you wrote, I heard about it many times and I thought that I'm suppsed to be experiencing something people call non-separatedness. It sounds like something positive. At this moment it's so abstract I don't even care anymore.


How separation itself is experienced?
I don't know. I don't experience anything I would call separation.


How could the absence of something be experienced? How could the absence of a cup be experienced?
It can't be experienced. It can be noticed if there's a memory to campare with.


What is your evidence that there is no self?
How do you know?
I don't have any real evidence. The present experience is just very different, day after day. It's so consistent that I don't have doubts anymore, even without a very obvious shift in one point in time. It's not all good, maybe that's why I think about positive sounding things like non-separation.

The problem again, that you are THINKING about this. What you wrote above is nothing else than a thought speculation..
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Well, yes. That was the plan. To both think and look. It seemed imprtant so there was alot of thinking and alot of looking. Checking if thoughts were experientially correct or not. I wouldn't say it was meaningless and looped thinking like few days ago. But you're right. I could have skipped the thinking part and just describe experience, sorry.

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Vivien
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Re: ja

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:52 am

Hi Jaro,
V: How could the absence of something be experienced? How could the absence of a cup be experienced?
J: It can't be experienced. It can be noticed if there's a memory to campare with.
Exactly! And the comparison can happen only in thoughts.
It's so consistent that I don't have doubts anymore, even without a very obvious shift in one point in time.
Are you saying that there wasn’t an obvious shift?
Could you please tell about the shift, if there were any?

How did the shift itself felt?
It's not all good, maybe that's why I think about positive sounding things like non-separation.
Is there an expectation that all should be good?
I could have skipped the thinking part and just describe experience, sorry.
It’s not just about not writing to me about the thinking part, but actually stop thinking about the topic, and look only.

How does the self show up in your daily life?

What is the self exactly?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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domostroy
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Re: ja

Postby domostroy » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:44 am


Are you saying that there wasn’t an obvious shift?
Could you please tell about the shift, if there were any?
Looking back it probably was, but it I didn't register it as THE shift at the time. I thought it was another insight, like no brain nor awareness inside my head.
You asked me a series of questions that started with "what" instead of "who" is doing stuff. I don't know why, but the questions confused me alot at the time. I understood the words, but those questions, although very straightforward, seemed like zen koans to me. It took me two days to answer.
I was laying on a sofa, asking quite desperately what is doing this and what is doing that. At one point there was an answer, kind of to the right of my head: "it's a thought", as if somebody else put it there. Immediately to the left of my head there was a sensation of recognition it as truth. It sounds weird, I know, but I remember it all very vividly. Right after that, I thought something like "of course!", it was suddenly very obvious. Then I went to work. At my workplace, I noticed twice I spoke stuff that surprized ME, but I didn't think much about it. Then the next day and onward, there was lots of unusual stuff happening.


How did the shift itself felt?
Hmm. Not much. There was kind of a release of tension created by looking and asking but being confused by your questions. The happy "of course!" moment. Nothing else spectacular. It just felt like a new important insight was made.



Is there an expectation that all should be good?
No. I can fall back to peace at any moment but I don't, just in case this unpleasantness leads to something. I just check from time to time that I really can find back to peace whenever I want. So far so good. Well, peace is there all the time. It's more like a foreground-background thing.
There are actually thoughts like "I hope there is still "I" somewhere" to have a chance at a "proper" shift, whatever that means. I don't know anymore what that means, there is just stuff I've read. In the rexperiences I've read, it's always very positive. Well, it was for me too, for a few days. I don't mind feeling not-good if it has some kind of purpose, like rewiring or adjustment to new experience. I don't see any purpose though.


How does the self show up in your daily life?
I'd say it showed up strongest when there was ego-hurting stuff, causing sensations in the chest area, sometimes stomach, causing emotional discomfort and reactivity. Also, a need to be right. Illusion of doing things. Worrying about what impression I make and such when interacting with others. Fear of this, fear of that. Pointless worrying. Wanting something quite often. An urge to keep my mind busy with meaningless activities. Pointless resistance to do things that I had to do anyway.
There is certainly more, I listed stuff from top of my head that strike me as missing now.


What is the self exactly?
It was lots of untrue thoughts and some sensations. An artificial construct.

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domostroy
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Re: ja

Postby domostroy » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:46 pm

Please disregard all the off-topic stuff I have written. This is quite disorienting time for me, including significant changes in sleep and eating patterns. I should think some things through better before I write. And a propos thinking, thoughts are slowly setteling down.

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domostroy
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Re: ja

Postby domostroy » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:57 pm

I forgot to add something regarding the shift. After what I described there were changes and fear of what's happening. One or two days later there was onother unusal happening. A not-deliberate letting go/fear release. It kind of just happened and was unintentinally very symbolic. Fear that followed me throughout this process just vanished within seconds at some point and most other physical sensations calmed down. Directly after that was what I descibed in a PM to you as a huge serotonin spike. So I actually don't know what the shift was. If it was the first experience, the second or somehow both together. I think that is what still bothers me. That it wasn't something very obvious.

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Vivien
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Re: ja

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:55 am

Hi Jaro,
I was laying on a sofa, asking quite desperately what is doing this and what is doing that. At one point there was an answer, kind of to the right of my head: "it's a thought", as if somebody else put it there. Immediately to the left of my head there was a sensation of recognition it as truth. It sounds weird, I know, but I remember it all very vividly. Right after that, I thought something like "of course!", it was suddenly very obvious.
Dear Jaro, this was probably a shift in understanding, not a shift in experience. Seeing through the self doesn’t come in a form of thought telling that “It’s a thought”.

It’s possible to take on no-self as a belief without being aware that there has been a shift in beliefs (understanding) only, just replacing one belief with another. This shift in belief/understanding can be very convincing, but the only way you can see this is in retrospect, once a real, deep experiential shift has happened. And my job is this and point it out to you.
I should think some things through better before I write.
No, you definitely shouldn’t think before you write to me. Thinking what to write is to CENSOR what to write. The task is not to write the ‘correct’ answers for me, but write what feels true in that moment. Your uncensored honesty is essential.
I just check from time to time that I really can find back to peace whenever I want.
Can you see the belief in the self is still there and this self is striving for peace?
I don't mind feeling not-good if it has some kind of purpose, like rewiring or adjustment to new experience. I don't see any purpose though.
Can you see that the belief in the self is still there? That feeling are belonging or happening TO ME?

Feelings of not-good comes up, but does it actually matter that it's there?
Look into it. Does it belong to a 'you'?

Unpleasant feelings come up. Check for the "I" who is feeling it. Is one there?
If not, then does the unpleasant feelings anchor anywhere in reality?


It’s very important that you don’t just think about it, but actually search through the whole body from head to toe for the one that emotions and sensations are attached to.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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domostroy
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Re: ja

Postby domostroy » Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:01 am

That would be great. I mean the possibility of a doubtless, obvious realization.
It will be a completely different ball game though. The fear and the myriad of chest sensations are gone. I'm not feeling any unpleasantness at the moment, so I tried with sleepiness and tiredness. Nothing. Just reading your questions used to cause of sensations fear/worry. Those sensations maybe were not important in and of themselves, but they were very helpful in guiding me.
I will continue with asking those questions in connection with whatever feeling that's present throughout the coming day.

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domostroy
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Re: ja

Postby domostroy » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:09 pm

Hi Vivien.

Can you see the belief in the self is still there and this self is striving for peace?
I don't yet, but I understand what you mean.

Can you see that the belief in the self is still there? That feeling are belonging or happening TO ME?
Not yet. I had a headache yesterday. I don't think I was claiming it as "mine", or that it was happening to a me, but there was certainly a headache.


Feelings of not-good comes up, but does it actually matter that it's there?
Look into it. Does it belong to a 'you'?
If not, then does the unpleasant feelings anchor anywhere in reality?
So this headache.. I had it for a couple of hours. I would not say it belonged to me. Yes, it did matter that it was there. If I had a choice, I would choose not to have it. Was it a "me" resisting the headache? Probably, I don't know. It coincidentally went away while I was looking if it belonged to me, if it mattered, who it happened to, who was feeling it etc. Was it anchored in reality? Yes, there was definitely a headache.
It’s possible to take on no-self as a belief
I am in a very weird place right now. Not bad, just weird. I did not want to believe, there was a lot of doubt and resistance as you have seen. I'm not invested or attached to it. I trust your judgment and I don't cling to the belief of no-self in any way, really. I don't want it. I actually don't think I have it. But I don't know how to ask and look effectively anymore. There has always been some kind of response in the body, that got stronger the more intense the asking was. It was kind of a guidance system, there was a "target" that responded more strongly to some questions than others. There was always more or less fear. Now there's nothing. I ask who/what feels, wants, doubts, walks, thinks... Anything that I catch happening in the moment. It just becomes an intellectual asking. I don't know how to proceed. Or is this a misconception, that there has to be some kind of a physical response? Are there tricks to provoke "I" to show itself? Or rather, for me to see it in some obvious way? There must be an "I" everywhere in my experience, so how come I'm so blind at the moment? Please help.

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Vivien
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Re: ja

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:42 am

Hi Jaro,
Or is this a misconception, that there has to be some kind of a physical response?
Yes, it’s a misconception. Looking for the self doesn’t depend on an emotional or physical (sensation-based) respond. Not at all. This physical respond only shows your resistance or non-resistance to the question only, but nothing about the self itself.
But I don't know how to ask and look effectively anymore. There has always been some kind of response in the body, that got stronger the more intense the asking was. It was kind of a guidance system, there was a "target" that responded more strongly to some questions than others. There was always more or less fear. Now there's nothing.
Actually, it’s good that this physical response is gone. Now can start the real-real looking :)
So far you’ve reacted to these physical sensations of fear. It’s time to let them go.
Please let go of the expectations that when you ask a questions, there should be a physical response (or fear). No.
The self is not equal to a physical response or to the sense of fear.
The appearance of the self is much subtler than that.

You just accepted that there is no self, therefore the fear-response has stopped. That’s all.
But it doesn’t mean anything more than that.
There must be an "I" everywhere in my experience, so how come I'm so blind at the moment? Please help.
We normally believe that we are inside of this body, and looking out of the eyes, and observing the world out there.
So we are here inside the body and the world is out there (outside the body).

Right? Is this how you feel yourself to be? Looking out through the eyes, observing the world out there?



Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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