Seeking Truth

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Felicity
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:30 pm

Seeking Truth

Postby Felicity » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:31 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Exploration of illusions and delusions to strip away at the layers of what is or is not real about how I have lived my life. To find Truth with the help of an experienced seeker and finder.

What are you looking for at LU?
The assistance to find the truth. To find the guidance to see and acknowledge what is holding me back. To go through the gate. Help to work through falseness. I am frustrated with the continual circle I seem to travel in and must break the patterns of how I react to life.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Not to allow me to think I have clarity when I am still in false. Patience to help me actually understand with examples so I have comprehension of what is asked or explained. Not just "look deeper" but what and how to look, there seems to be many concepts, visions, thoughts, etc. that distract. For my guide to know that gratitude for their understanding, time and efforts is greatly appreciated.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have read the gateless gatecrashers but most of my guidance has been from family that went through the gate many years ago. Some books over the years but nothing such as this.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Vivien
Posts: 3196
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Seeking Truth

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:15 am

Hi,

My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self' and other related topics.

At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we begin, here are links to information I would like you to read please.
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the 'Post Reply" button at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.
To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration (for example, what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change). Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Felicity
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:30 pm

Re: Seeking Truth

Postby Felicity » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:48 pm

Thank you Vivien for accepting me. I am deeply grateful for your time and the efforts you will be giving.
How will Life change?
Life will go on automatically. Thoughts and feelings will still need to be addressed. Hopefully the gibberish that runs rampant in the mind will have less intensity and attachment with more clarity. I have never been inquisitive, always accepting at face value and stuffing down the emotions and hurts until nothing but false seems to exist. Exploring the mind has opened some truths that are undeniable and clarity, from what I understand, will continue to grow and I look forward to being aware of life.
How will you change?
I would like to think that the tightly wrapped intensity focused person that tries to please and make everyone and everything happy and non confrontational would just relax and flow. I would like to understand and release the devastating hurts and traumas which I know are just feelings that come and go but seem to have a vice grip even now that they are recognized as not real. I see it but don't get it or feel it. Seeing clearly in the minds eye that there is no me once the body, labels, thoughts and feelings are removed, that there is nothing but void, has not changed anything so the need to?
What will be different?
Life will flow without so much interference and the need for control. I am hoping clarity to see issues and realize what they really are becomes more prominent s
o they can be addressed, acknowledged and released.
The desperation to fit in should dissipate because instead of thinking there was a separate me there was only everything flowing together anyway.
What is missing?
The actual "getting it"! I see all of this in the minds eye. The desperation to realize it and know it and accept it is there, but what am I missing is driving me nuts. I just come up blank!

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Seeking Truth

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:41 am

Hi Felicity,

What would you like me to call you? Is Felicity alright? Or would you prefer some other name?

Thank you Vivien for accepting me. I am deeply grateful for your time and the efforts you will be giving.
You are welcome :)

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations results in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises ‘in the body’. Is there any resistance to any of it?
Life will go on automatically.
Life ALREADY goes on automatically. It has always been automatic.
There is already no you/self governing and having life.
Life is, but without a center/you.
I would like to think that the tightly wrapped intensity focused person that tries to please and make everyone and everything happy and non confrontational would just relax and flow.
This is a big expectation. Trying to please others is a deeply ingrained habit, a conditioning, and just because the self is seen through, it doesn’t mean that this will automatically gone. Habits and conditionings will still go on.

Perception changes and with that some reactions may change. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through which also includes others beliefs that support this idea. However, like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots (beliefs, patterns) that need undoing. Falling away of conditionings can last at the end of the organism. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.
I would like to understand and release the devastating hurts and traumas which I know are just feelings that come and go but seem to have a vice grip even now that they are recognized as not real. I see it but don't get it or feel it.
This is an even bigger expectation. Traumas won’t go away, since the personality stays almost completely intact.
It can be seen that these traumas don’t belong to anyone, and yet, they will be still played out.

Physiological problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.
Life will flow without so much interference and the need for control.
Needing to control is also just a conditioned habit. And habits won’t go away just because the self is seen through.
I am hoping clarity to see issues and realize what they really are becomes more prominent so they can be addressed, acknowledged and released.
I have to emphasize that seeing through the self is NOT like a therapy. It’s just the simple recognition that all these feelings, emotions, habits, conditionings won’t belong to anything. That there is nothing at the center. But it doesn’t mean that these will stop appearing. They won’t. It will need lots and lots of further looking (after no self is realized) to they can slowly gradually fall away.
The desperation to fit in should dissipate because instead of thinking there was a separate me there was only everything flowing together anyway.
This is the same expectation as the above.

Your expectations are on behalf of the ME.
The ‘me’ want these unpleasant sensations, feelings, reactions to go away.
The ‘me’ wants to feel better.

But what can be realized here is that that the ‘me’ that wants to feel better is simply not there.
These things won’t disappear.
But it can be seen that the me/self is missing from the picture.
That these emotions are just free floating and they are not attached to anything or anyone.
I am frustrated with the continual circle I seem to travel in and must break the patterns of how I react to life.
Reactive patterns WON’T be dissolved just because the self is seen through.
If you expect this, you will be disappointed.

However, it can be seen that these patters don’t belong to anything.

It would be very good if you could let go all of your expectations, since your expectations are about the self who wants to feel better. So what can be seen with this exploration that not just the self but these expectations also just false, unreal fantasies on behalf of a non-existent separate self.

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?


Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Felicity
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Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:30 pm

Re: Seeking Truth

Postby Felicity » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:37 pm

What would you like me to call you? Is Felicity alright? Or would you prefer some other name?

Thank you Vivien. Felicity will do just fine thanks.

Can we agree on these?

I am delighted to listen only to you and to agree to your requests. Perhaps the listening to others and reading has confused me more than I realized because your responses showed the emotions and habits I listed so clearly. An entirely "off base" direction from where we want to go. Your sentence "the comparison between what is happening and the imagined expectations" is so clear to understand I love it! I am willing and ready to drop expectations to move forward.

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

You asked if there was any resistance to the content of your responses and honestly just an "oh, how dumb am I" not to recognize feelings and habits AGAIN. No resistance at all to the responses just more openness to learn. In all honesty the gut reaction happened with the word "look". As always, I panic at look where?, look how?, look inward?, look outward?, in the thoughts?, in the feelings?, etc. Ridiculous, I know! Obviously I have much work to do when we are done here.


Do you feel ready to start the investigation?
Clean slate on expectations and I am ready to start investigating if you are still willing. Thank you. Felicity

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Seeking Truth

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:36 pm

Hi Felicity,

You can check how your post will look like by pressing the ‘Preview’ button next to the ‘Submit’ button. So you can make adjustments if you need to. This post was a bit hard to read, so please check it before posting
.
This investigation will be very simple. You won’t need your intellectual mind to figure out anything.

We are only ever looking for facts of reality, but not knowledge of facts of reality. So, you'll need to put the teachings aside because they so far haven't worked. They won't work until this can be experienced with certainty and that's the path we're headed down.

We are going to strip away as much intellectualization as possible. We are going down to bare bones. To the simplest simplicity.

Intellectual understanding is what moves the needle the wrong way on the dial. We're going to move it back to the simplest position possible.

This investigation will be very-very simple. You won’t need your intellectual mind to figure out anything.

You have to look at each questions with the eyes of a little child, who has no intellectual knowledge about how things work.

I will at times ask things repeatedly, or in very simple language. If that happens, trust the process as it's meant to stop the intellectualizing an allow exploration of the experiential.

What the ‘I’ is for you?

What is the experience of being you?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Felicity
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:30 pm

Re: Seeking Truth

Postby Felicity » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:02 pm

I will certainly be more attentive to the preview. Not sure what I missed but it was definitely something.
What the ‘I’ is for you?
Recognizing that the "I" is a label which when removed leaves nothing behind it, I would have to say that "I" is just a label.
What is the experience of being you?
I must admit that I really don't understand the question, but if I had to say what I think it means, it would be that it is all a delusion trying to convince me that there is a me and that I exist.

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Vivien
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Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Seeking Truth

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:14 am

Hi Felicity,
I must admit that I really don't understand the question, but if I had to say what I think it means, it would be that it is all a delusion trying to convince me that there is a me and that I exist.
All right. You gave an intellectual answer. What I am interested in is your experience.

So in your everyday life, you FEEL that there is a you somewhere inside the body who is in charge, right?

So we are not looking for conceptual ideas about what is the ‘I’, but rather we are looking at reality (experience).

So in reality, where is the "I" experienced right now? What is its location?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Felicity
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:30 pm

Re: Seeking Truth

Postby Felicity » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:25 pm

So in your everyday life, you FEEL that there is a you somewhere inside the body who is in charge, right?
Yes.
So in reality, where is the "I" experienced right now? What is its location?
My gut feeling is to say that I is experienced as gut feelings. If so, I have never considered it as an "I" just reactions triggered or intuitions from situations that are felt in the gut.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Seeking Truth

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:04 am

Hi Felicity,
My gut feeling is to say that I is experienced as gut feelings. If so, I have never considered it as an "I" just reactions triggered or intuitions from situations that are felt in the gut.
This is an automatic knee-jerk-like thought reaction. You even say that you have never consider this as an I.
So this is just a thought that popped up in the moment.

But ‘listening’ to thoughts have no value with this investigation.

We are looking for ACTUAL FACTS of reality, and not THOUGHTS about it.

So at first, you have to be clear on what is the difference between reality (experience) and fantasy (thought).

Imagine, that you are a five-year old child, and I am your five-year old friend. We are playing together in the kindergarten. Do you get the picture? :)

So while we are playing, you are trying to explain to me that how you know that the cup in your hands is real.

So what do you tell me (to your five-year old friend)? How do you know that the cup in your hand is real?

And how do you know that a ghost is not real?

If the question and resulting answer seems too simplistic, good. It's leading us where we need to go.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Felicity
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Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:30 pm

Re: Seeking Truth

Postby Felicity » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:47 am

Hi Vivien. The simpler the better. Thanks for hanging in there.
So what do you tell me (to your five-year old friend)? How do you know that the cup in your hand is real?
About the weight, density and touch. Seeing could be imagining.
And how do you know that a ghost is not real?
Because it is not tangible. It can't be touched or weighed so it is imagined.

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Vivien
Posts: 3196
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Seeking Truth

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:37 pm

Hi Felicity,
Seeing could be imagining.
What makes you think that seeing could be imagining?
Where you see a cup, isn’t it clear that the there is a real cup?

Could you please tell me in your own words, what is the difference between experience and imagination?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Felicity
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:30 pm

Re: Seeking Truth

Postby Felicity » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:12 am

Vivien, I have unexpectedly had to travel home and will be offline for 4 days. I will be back as soon as I can. So sorry. Thanks, Heather

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Vivien
Posts: 3196
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Seeking Truth

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:17 am

Thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Felicity
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:30 pm

Re: Seeking Truth

Postby Felicity » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:47 pm

Hi Vivien, I am home now and if you are still willing I am ready to continue. Thanks for sticking with me.
What makes you think that seeing could be imagining?
Well, I don't really. Looking at it, I was looking for the "trick", thinking I had missed something I should have seen. Not having a clue where this goes I anticipated something had to be other than its simple self. I will try not to do that again.
Where you see a cup, isn’t it clear that the there is a real cup?

Yes, it is clear.
Could you please tell me in your own words, what is the difference between experience and imagination?
Experience is life that you have participated in. What has happened to you in the past.
Imagination is the mind creating thoughts and images.


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