Where is it?

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Vivien
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Re: Where is it?

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:52 am

Hi Chaffinch,
V: There is NOTHING that could abide in sensation. Can you see this?
C: I see it intellectually and sometimes I experience it, but the experience of it usually lasts for just a moment.
Ohh… so you are expecting experience to change?
To see this for longer, not just for a moment?

Does it matter how long it’s seen that there is nothing there which could abide in sensation?


We are not trying to change how experience shows up.
It’s enough to see no-self just for a split of a second. But for many times.

We are not after a different experience.
We are after to the recognition of the facts of reality.
To recognize that there is no self anywhere, despite its seeming appearance.

So look here now, WHERE is the self in this moment?
Where are you?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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chaffinch
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Re: Where is it?

Postby chaffinch » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:57 pm

Ohh… so you are expecting experience to change?
To see this for longer, not just for a moment?
I guess. Sometimes. Mostly when I'm not seeing it at all.
Does it matter how long it’s seen that there is nothing there which could abide in sensation?
I don't know. But it feels like if I see it for a longer time, the experience will stick somehow.
So look here now, WHERE is the self in this moment?
Where are you?
As always it's running away, when I look I can't grasp it.

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Vivien
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Re: Where is it?

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:44 pm

Hi Chaffinch,
V: Does it matter how long it’s seen that there is nothing there which could abide in sensation?
C: I don't know. But it feels like if I see it for a longer time, the experience will stick somehow.
There is a big and unrealistic expectation here with saying that ‘… the experience will stick somehow’.
Seeing through the self is not a different experience than what you are having right now.
If you expect that you will have a different experience than how it’s normally is, you will be disappointed.

Seeing through the self is NOT an experience.
It’s just the RECOGNITION that the self is just an illusion.

It’s about seeing that the ONE that is expecting a different experience is just an illusion. There is nothing there.
V: So look here now, WHERE is the self in this moment?
Where are you?
C: As always it's running away, when I look I can't grasp it.
So you are saying that YOU are constantly running away?

How is it known that there is a YOU if it’s NEVER been SEEN it, never been experienced?

So look now for any evidence of a separate 'self'. Is there any?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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chaffinch
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Re: Where is it?

Postby chaffinch » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:44 pm

So you are saying that YOU are constantly running away?
The idea of an I is. I think I see a 'me' but as soon as I look for it it's gone.
How is it known that there is a YOU if it’s NEVER been SEEN it, never been experienced?
I don't think it's known. But the idea of a self is so strong that it overrules experience most of the time. Or it's allowed to define the way things are, rather than experience being definitive of what is known in itself.
So look now for any evidence of a separate 'self'. Is there any?
There is experience - sensation, feelings, thoughts. Some of these thought label the other experiences as belonging to or being tied to a 'self' - but that's just another experience. There is no center, no 'self' around which everything revolves. All is flowing.

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Vivien
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Re: Where is it?

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:42 pm

Hi Chaffinch,
I don't think it's known. But the idea of a self is so strong that it overrules experience most of the time. Or it's allowed to define the way things are, rather than experience being definitive of what is known in itself.
You are expecting to see experience differently?

Is seeing through the illusion of the self is about seeing experience of how it is in itself without no thought interpretation?
There is experience - sensation, feelings, thoughts. Some of these thought label the other experiences as belonging to or being tied to a 'self' - but that's just another experience. There is no center, no 'self' around which everything revolves. All is flowing.
Are you sure about this? Maybe there is self hiding somewhere. :)

How do you know that there is no center?

Please list me the places where you looked for a center.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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chaffinch
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Re: Where is it?

Postby chaffinch » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:42 am

Hi Vivien,

I just want to let you know that after this reply I probably won't be able to write for another 48 hours. But I'll be able to read and engage with further questions.
You are expecting to see experience differently?
No, I don't think so.
Is seeing through the illusion of the self is about seeing experience of how it is in itself without no thought interpretation?
I haven't seen through the illusion so I wouldn't know. But I suspect thoughts will be present just as they are now.
Are you sure about this? Maybe there is self hiding somewhere. :)
No, I'm not really sure about anything.
How do you know that there is no center?
I can't know for sure, but the more I observe the less it seems like there is.
Please list me the places where you looked for a center.
I'v looked in the sensations of breath, in feelings and their physical sensations, at the point behind eyes where most of the 'I'-thoughts seem to appear, in the chest and in the abdomen.

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Vivien
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Re: Where is it?

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:09 am

Hi Chaffinch,
I just want to let you know that after this reply I probably won't be able to write for another 48 hours. But I'll be able to read and engage with further questions.
All right. Thank you for letting me know.
I haven't seen through the illusion so I wouldn't know. But I suspect thoughts will be present just as they are now.
Yes, thoughts will be present just as now. So, let’s start examining thoughts.

Please sit on a chair doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch the thoughts coming and going.

Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination, if there’s any?
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?


Please repeat this exercise several times before replying.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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chaffinch
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Re: Where is it?

Postby chaffinch » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:36 pm

Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
No. Often it's a repetition of a previous thought or it seems to follow from an earlier one, but they're never really connected.
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination, if there’s any?
I haven't been able to. They seem to just disappear and a new thought arises instead.
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?
No, they constantly appear and disappear - I can't control it and I can't see where they go or where they come from.

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Vivien
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Re: Where is it?

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:01 am

Hi Chaffinch,
No, they constantly appear and disappear - I can't control it and I can't see where they go or where they come from.
Do 'you' think thoughts? Are thoughts 'yours'?

Try an experiment. Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?

Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?

Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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chaffinch
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Re: Where is it?

Postby chaffinch » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:13 pm

Do 'you' think thoughts? Are thoughts 'yours'?
They appear, from where I don't know. There is no 'me' involved in their genesis.
Try an experiment. Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?
I can't do it. Thoughts appear of their own volition.
Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?
Yes, that process is quite clear.
Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?
I don't even know where to to start with this one. I am not aware of a thought until it has presented itself, so to prevent it before appearing is impossible to me at this point.

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Vivien
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Re: Where is it?

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:49 am

Hi Chaffinch,
I don't even know where to to start with this one. I am not aware of a thought until it has presented itself, so to prevent it before appearing is impossible to me at this point.
All right. Now please look for the ONE that is aware of thoughts.

WHERE is this entity/thing that is aware of thoughts? – find the exact location
And WHAT is it?


Please look not just once or twice, not even for ten times. Look as often you can remember during the day (even if it’s just for 10-30 seconds, preferably hundred times a day) before replying. Be very thorough.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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chaffinch
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Re: Where is it?

Postby chaffinch » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:53 pm

Hi Vivien,

I feel that I need a bit more time with this exercise. So I'll be back with a reflection tomorrow.

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Vivien
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Re: Where is it?

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:57 pm

All right. Please be thorough :)
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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chaffinch
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Re: Where is it?

Postby chaffinch » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:46 pm

Hi Vivien,

I'v looked for two days now but not as much as I would've liked to. I'll try to answer anyway.
WHERE is this entity/thing that is aware of thoughts? – find the exact location
I can't find an exact location but there is a feeling of something being aware, and sometimes that is located in (or somewhere behind) the head, in the throat or in the abdomen. But I don't know if that is where this entity (if it even exists) resides.
And WHAT is it?
I don't know, I haven't found it. When looking for it it feels like standing in the middle of a hall of mirrors - but when looking into the mirrors I see no reflection of myself, only of an empty room.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Where is it?

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:17 am

Hi Chaffinch,
I don't know, I haven't found it. When looking for it it feels like standing in the middle of a hall of mirrors - but when looking into the mirrors I see no reflection of myself, only of an empty room.
Yes :)
I can't find an exact location but there is a feeling of something being aware, and sometimes that is located in (or somewhere behind) the head, in the throat or in the abdomen. But I don't know if that is where this entity (if it even exists) resides.
I would like to ask you to put a laser-sharp focus on this ‘feeling of something being aware’ as often as possible (preferably hundred times) during day, even if just for 10-20 seconds.

“Feeling of something being aware” – so FEEL it.

Is something ‘being aware’ can be felt, or only sensations can be felt?

What is it that is ACTUALLY FELT?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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