Guidance for deep looking

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:59 am

Hi Mike,
But when some kind of challenge comes up I feel like I am sucked back into the world of emotions and the need to act. there is sometimes a feeling that I have to drop this looking to sort out problems in my life. Like money and relationship stuff.
This is normal, even after seeing through the self. Every time when we get triggered, the sense of self gets much stronger. This will go on (even after seeing no self) until all the emotional wounds we carry inside are met and looked at. Seeing through the self is just the beginning, just the first step, not the end.
it happens no effort from me - in fact I don't want it there (but underneath I think I believe the resistance is helpful and protecting me).
Yes, fear and resistance is a protecting mechanism.

It’s here to do its function, to keep something safe. The question is, what is that? What needs protection?
And from what? Is there an actual threat, or just an imagined one?
When you look behind this protective mechanism, the fear and resistance, what is there?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:54 am

Hi

it happens no effort from me - in fact I don't want it there (but underneath I think I believe the resistance is helpful and protecting me).
Yes, fear and resistance is a protecting mechanism.

It’s here to do its function, to keep something safe. The question is, what is that? What needs protection?
It feels as if it’s my ability to look after myself and my family and exist even.
When I look now for an I there’s a feeling of fatigue and resistance felt in the head and stomach. Behind the feeling is a thought I ant do this it’s not working how long will it take. ( sometimes it’s much hopeful but right now it’s this). There is a thought that it should be obvious - if I can’t find an I then why do believe in it? Then a fear emotion and I think behind that the thought that things will fall apart if there is no I.
Typing now there is a feeling of frustration and desperation almost and below that a desire for relief to rest. Right now it feels like there’s an I making the effort to type - all mixed up in the sensation and muscle contractions of my face and body and the thoughts and my voice in my head.

it happens no effort from me - in fact I don't want it there (but underneath I think I believe the resistance is helpful and protecting me).
Yes, fear and resistance is a protecting mechanism.
It’s here to do its function, to keep something safe. The question is, what is that?
I don’t know. The sense of myself
What needs protection?
And from what? Is there an actual threat, or just an imagined one?
I can feel the resistance now and the frustration as tightness and a flat feeling. There is a desire to sort out my finances and a fear that losing the I will block that. There is a fear of just not being here I think- a physical unsteadiness.

When you look behind this protective mechanism, the fear and resistance, what is there?
Nothing can’t find anything I can sense
And from what? Is there an actual threat, or just an imagined one?
Not sure there’s just a fear and frustration one voice saying an I is require to be in control and another saying it can’t be found
When you look behind this protective mechanism, the fear and resistance, what is there?
Nothing can’t find anything

Thanks Vivien

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:01 am

Hi Mike,

Thank you for your honestly. I’m going to be very honest with you too. My comments might sounds blunt, but I don’t know any other way how to help you to wake up from the fearful dream you’ve created.
V: And from what? Is there an actual threat, or just an imagined one?
M: Not sure there’s just a fear and frustration one voice saying an I is require to be in control and another saying it can’t be found
Please ready my above question. There is no actual real threat, ONLY an IMAGINED one.

You’ve created a story, an IMAGINATION how you imagine seeing no self would be like.
You IMAGINE that there is a you, and you can lose control.
You IMAGINE all sorts of negative consequences of losing control.
You IMAGINE that you might not be able to provide for yourself and for your family.
You IMAGINE that if you lose control then you won’t be able to control your life, and everything will go downhill.

You’ve painted a pretty fearful IMAGE of how seeing no self would be like.
And the problem is that you are not seeing that it’s YOUR IMAGINATION that you are afraid of, since you believe that this is not just a fantasy, but rather a fact.

This picture illustrates nicely what is going on.

Image

You’ve created a fantasy and accepted it as a fact.
You are not seeing it as a fantasy, but rather you believe that it’s a fact.
You believe that seeing no self means losing control.
And since you believe that this is a fact, you are not seeing that it’s not true.
You behave as if this were the truth, as if indeed there were a you and you could lose control.
And this is indeed a fearful picture.
And you are afraid of this image.
You are afraid of your OWN IMAGINATION.

And since you are afraid and in a stress response to this fearful future picture, you are missing the most important point. You are missing the way out, the freedom out of this dangerous future scenario.

And that is that this is NOT how it is.
That this is NOT a FACT.
This is NOT the TRUTH.
This is just a FANTASY.

That it’s literally impossible to lose control. IMPOSSIBLE.
Since there is no you who could lose it.
There has NEVER EVER been a real Mike. NEVER.
So it’s literally impossible for Mike to lose control. Impossible.
And even in the moment of the fear of losing control, there is NO Mike, no you, no person having this fear.
You are literally afraid of your own imagination what you believe to be the facts of no-self.
But it’s not.

You are the one frightening yourself with a fearful fantasy.
Can you see this?


The thing is that until you become open to sincerely investigate your imagination and be open that it’s not a fact, then the chance of seeing through the self is close to zero.

Nobody in their right mind would do something that will bring such bad consequences than what you imagine.
So the circuit is closed.

So you have two options:

Either you change your predisposition about this imagination being a fact, and open up to REALLY and DEEPLY investigating its truthfulness, and as a consequence, letting it go… then, and only then there is a chance to investigate what is here now.

But if you continue believing this fearful image, you are blocking yourself and cutting off from looking and experiencing what is actually here, what actually is. If you choose this rout, that’s all right. You don’t have to do this inquiry. You might not be ready. And that’s is completely OK. You might be read a few years later. But not yet.

So I would like to ask you to seriously consider how would you proceed.
Please read this post and the other one I wrote to you a few weeks ago about this same topic of fear.

See if there is an opening to letting go this image as a fact and be open to accept intellectually that control cannot be lost, since there is no Mike and has never been ever, who could lose anything.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:32 am

Hi Viviven

thanks a lot for your reply and help.

I woke up the next day feeling a lot less fearful. In fact not really fearful at all. I'm not exactly sure why but I did read through your post several times and agreed with what you had written in it. I think the image of the hand and its frightening shadow helped a lot. Also I think I was pushing too hard and needed to relax a little.

I've reminded to stick to looking in a calm relaxed curious way - it helps me to think of it like a science project. I'm just examining, investigating and noting what I find.
You IMAGINE that there is a you, and you can lose control.
Yes I can see this.

Looking at my thoughts at how my thoughts arise completely automatically and knowing that my actions come from thoughts I can see that there has never been any control.
You IMAGINE all sorts of negative consequences of losing control.
Yes - but right now don't have that fear.
You IMAGINE that you might not be able to provide for yourself and for your family.
My immediate response to re-reading this now is that it is ridiculous. I might be able to provide for my family or I might not. If thoughts arise automatically (as they are doing now), then any actions taken are without control. The thoughts appear including the ones to take action and including the ones to plan and including the thoughts coming up now about things that have to be done later today.

The thoughts come up, sometimes go by unnoticed sometimes trigger an emotion and trigger the sense of I (I thought in imagination).

When I look I can't find any I who is doing the thinking. There are sensations in the face, and internal voice which speaks thoughts (I can hear it now speaking these words as I write). There is a feeling of doing - a muscular tension.

One thing I think that may have changed is my expectation that looking should result in feeling a certain way. Or even in a certain belief. That seems to produce tension. It seems to work better if I just look like a scientist (or a child) and report my findings.
You’ve painted a pretty fearful IMAGE of how seeing no self would be like.
Yes thanks Vivien I can clearly see that now.
And the problem is that you are not seeing that it’s YOUR IMAGINATION that you are afraid of, since you believe that this is not just a fantasy, but rather a fact.

Yes can see fear of losing control is a fantasy.
You IMAGINE that if you lose control then you won’t be able to control your life, and everything will go downhill.

Yes but it is a fantasy as you say. If I can refer to the past - in the past I did things - planned, looked after myself and family etc and from looking now I can see that all thoughts come up automatically from no-where. There is no effort to make thoughts - but emotions/the I thought/physical tension muscular tension can be added to the thought. So I don't know how thoughts are made or where they come from and I play no part in making them. I can't intend to make a thought ( I can intend to but the intention to make a thought comes up automatically).

Any sense of effort or tension or fear might comes up after the thought.

And those thoughts resulted in the actions I took. Right now thoughts are directing my actions - bu they are arising automatically so how could there be any loss of control.

And when I look for an I then all I find is my voice speaking in my head, muscular contractions, tension around the face and head and ... nothing else.

There what can be seen and heard and felt and there is thinking - imagination - words, images, emotions - including fear/joy/hope/excitement/depression/anger/resentment/love/pride etc etc.

You’ve created a fantasy and accepted it as a fact.
You are not seeing it as a fantasy, but rather you believe that it’s a fact.
You believe that seeing no self means losing control.
And since you believe that this is a fact, you are not seeing that it’s not true.
You behave as if this were the truth, as if indeed there were a you and you could lose control.
And this is indeed a fearful picture.
And you are afraid of this image.
You are afraid of your OWN IMAGINATION.

I agree and can see it now.
And since you are afraid and in a stress response to this fearful future picture, you are missing the most important point. You are missing the way out, the freedom out of this dangerous future scenario.
Yes I see this now.


This is just a FANTASY.

That it’s literally impossible to lose control. IMPOSSIBLE.
Since there is no you who could lose it.
There has NEVER EVER been a real Mike. NEVER.
So it’s literally impossible for Mike to lose control. Impossible.
yes I see.
And even in the moment of the fear of losing control, there is NO Mike, no you, no person having this fear.
Thanks Vivien. This is interesting and helpful to me.
You are literally afraid of your own imagination what you believe to be the facts of no-self.
But it’s not.
Yes I see.
But if you continue believing this fearful image, you are blocking yourself and cutting off from looking
I don't want to do this (continue to believe in a fearful fantasy).
See if there is an opening to letting go this image as a fact and be open to accept intellectually that control cannot be lost, since there is no Mike and has never been ever, who could lose anything.
Yes I think there is and if you are willing I would like to continue.


Best wishes, Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:59 am

Hi Mike,
Yes I think there is and if you are willing I would like to continue.
Of course, we can continue :) I’m glad you’ve found my comments useful.
I've reminded to stick to looking in a calm relaxed curious way - it helps me to think of it like a science project. I'm just examining, investigating and noting what I find.
Exactly! This is exactly how the investigation should be done. Both the notion of being a scientist who just discovered a strange new phenomenon and would like to know anything about it, and the notion of becoming like a little child who has no prior knowledge about anything and he is just curious to discover what and how things are, are excellent ways to approach this.

This investigation is not about life and death :) It’s not that serious :) Approaching it with curiosity and openness to discover something which has been unseen so far, is very good way to do it.
Looking at my thoughts at how my thoughts arise completely automatically and knowing that my actions come from thoughts I can see that there has never been any control.
Great :)

What I would like to ask you to investigate if there is any thought at all, any at all in your daily life that is done and not just noticed. So please incorporate this open curiosity into your everyday life, to see if you can find any thought that was made/done by someone, or all the thoughts (without exception) just happens on their own, and they are just noticed when they are ALREADY present.

Look as often as possible. Even if just for 10 seconds each. Let me know what you find.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:54 am

Hi Vivien
his is exactly how the investigation should be done. Both the notion of being a scientist who just discovered a strange new phenomenon and would like to know anything about it,
Yes - will stick to this approach.
This investigation is not about life and death :) It’s not that serious :) Approaching it with curiosity and openness to discover something which has been unseen so far, is very good way to do it.
And this :)
What I would like to ask you to investigate if there is any thought at all, any at all in your daily life that is done and not just noticed. So please incorporate this open curiosity into your everyday life, to see if you can find any thought that was made/done by someone, or all the thoughts (without exception) just happens on their own, and they are just noticed when they are ALREADY present.

So far I cant find any thoughts that are done in any way. Yes they are all just noticed after they have arisen.

A lot of the time I notice a train of thoughts and as I notice it realize that it has been going on for some time. Some emotion triggered by the thought makes it noticeable (if that makes sense).

Sometimes I try to trace the thought back to where it started. I see that it pops up from nothing.

A lot of the thoughts are linked - one triggering another.

Some have the I feeling/thought attached more strongly.

And some have the intention feeling ( feeling that there is an I doing this) attached.

The thoughts have a kind of hypnotic effect on attention. Overall watching them feels like repeatedly waking up to realize thinking is going on then falling back into a trance then waking up again mid thought.

Iv'e tried paying close attention and trying to catch thoughts as they arise. Sometimes I can notice them as they pop up (I think) but there is no point where I can see that thoughts are made or done.

There is often a feeling of doing and of I linked to the thoughts. But when I look closely the thought comes before the doing feeling.

Will continue to look today :)

Thanks Mike

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:54 am

Hi Vivien
his is exactly how the investigation should be done. Both the notion of being a scientist who just discovered a strange new phenomenon and would like to know anything about it,
Yes - will stick to this approach.
This investigation is not about life and death :) It’s not that serious :) Approaching it with curiosity and openness to discover something which has been unseen so far, is very good way to do it.
And this :)
What I would like to ask you to investigate if there is any thought at all, any at all in your daily life that is done and not just noticed. So please incorporate this open curiosity into your everyday life, to see if you can find any thought that was made/done by someone, or all the thoughts (without exception) just happens on their own, and they are just noticed when they are ALREADY present.

So far I cant find any thoughts that are done in any way. Yes they are all just noticed after they have arisen.

A lot of the time I notice a train of thoughts and as I notice it realize that it has been going on for some time. Some emotion triggered by the thought makes it noticeable (if that makes sense).

Sometimes I try to trace the thought back to where it started. I see that it pops up from nothing.

A lot of the thoughts are linked - one triggering another.

Some have the I feeling/thought attached more strongly.

And some have the intention feeling ( feeling that there is an I doing this) attached.

The thoughts have a kind of hypnotic effect on attention. Overall watching them feels like repeatedly waking up to realize thinking is going on then falling back into a trance then waking up again mid thought.

Iv'e tried paying close attention and trying to catch thoughts as they arise. Sometimes I can notice them as they pop up (I think) but there is no point where I can see that thoughts are made or done.

There is often a feeling of doing and of I linked to the thoughts. But when I look closely the thought comes before the doing feeling.

Will continue to look today :)

Thanks Mike

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:54 am

Hi Vivien
his is exactly how the investigation should be done. Both the notion of being a scientist who just discovered a strange new phenomenon and would like to know anything about it,
Yes - will stick to this approach.
This investigation is not about life and death :) It’s not that serious :) Approaching it with curiosity and openness to discover something which has been unseen so far, is very good way to do it.
And this :)
What I would like to ask you to investigate if there is any thought at all, any at all in your daily life that is done and not just noticed. So please incorporate this open curiosity into your everyday life, to see if you can find any thought that was made/done by someone, or all the thoughts (without exception) just happens on their own, and they are just noticed when they are ALREADY present.

So far I cant find any thoughts that are done in any way. Yes they are all just noticed after they have arisen.

A lot of the time I notice a train of thoughts and as I notice it realize that it has been going on for some time. Some emotion triggered by the thought makes it noticeable (if that makes sense).

Sometimes I try to trace the thought back to where it started. I see that it pops up from nothing.

A lot of the thoughts are linked - one triggering another.

Some have the I feeling/thought attached more strongly.

And some have the intention feeling ( feeling that there is an I doing this) attached.

The thoughts have a kind of hypnotic effect on attention. Overall watching them feels like repeatedly waking up to realize thinking is going on then falling back into a trance then waking up again mid thought.

Iv'e tried paying close attention and trying to catch thoughts as they arise. Sometimes I can notice them as they pop up (I think) but there is no point where I can see that thoughts are made or done.

There is often a feeling of doing and of I linked to the thoughts. But when I look closely the thought comes before the doing feeling.

Will continue to look today :)

Thanks Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:38 am

Hi Mike,
The thoughts have a kind of hypnotic effect on attention. Overall watching them feels like repeatedly waking up to realize thinking is going on then falling back into a trance then waking up again mid thought.
We are literally dreaming with open eyes. Just notice how much of the time you are not in touch with what is actually happening, but rather participating in an internal movie as a main character.

And of course this movie is about me, about Mike. Mike is the main character.
Everything, in one way or another, is revolving around the me / Mike-character.
Can you see these?
And some have the intention feeling ( feeling that there is an I doing this) attached.
What is this intention feeling exactly? How is this ‘intention feeling’ felt or experienced?
Does it felt somewhere in the body?
Or is it totally made up, as a concept, as part of the thought movie?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:20 am

Hi Vivien

sorry I didn't reply yesterday - the site was down and then I found my password wasn't working and for some reason I didn't get the reset email until today.
We are literally dreaming with open eyes. Just notice how much of the time you are not in touch with what is actually happening, but rather participating in an internal movie as a main character.
Yes there was a lot of this yesterday. Had a social gathering with a lot of people I wasn't really looking forward to meeting. There were quite strong emotions which dragged my attention into Mike's melodrama story.

A
nd of course this movie is about me, about Mike. Mike is the main character.
Everything, in one way or another, is revolving around the me / Mike-character.
Yes I cans see this - looking at my thoughts yesterday and day before they are mostly about Mike and his story.
What is this intention feeling exactly? How is this ‘intention feeling’ felt or experienced?
Does it felt somewhere in the body?
Or is it totally made up, as a concept, as part of the thought movie?
It varies - moves around but its def a physical feeling - sometimes stronger or weaker. So a feeling of contraction in the jaw or temples or shoulders and even behind the eyes and with that some thoughts of making effort/needing to push to get whatever it is I want or don't want.

Thanks :)
Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:05 am

Hi Mike,

Yes, there has been some technical issues with the site.
There were quite strong emotions which dragged my attention into Mike's melodrama story.
So is there a you outside of the story of Mike, who can be dragged into the story?
Where is this one that could be dragged into the story? – search for it everywhere
V: What is this intention feeling exactly? How is this ‘intention feeling’ felt or experienced?
Does it felt somewhere in the body?
Or is it totally made up, as a concept, as part of the thought movie?
M: It varies - moves around but its def a physical feeling - sometimes stronger or weaker. So a feeling of contraction in the jaw or temples or shoulders and even behind the eyes and with that some thoughts of making effort/needing to push to get whatever it is I want or don't want.
Please try not to bulk-reply. Always reply to each question one-by-one. Why? Because each question is a pointer for you where to look. And if you bulk-reply, it’s easy to miss some important pointers.

You’ve missed the last pointer:
Or is it totally made up, as a concept, as part of the thought movie?

Going back to you reply, so there are some thoughts of ‘making effort and needing push to whatever it is you want or don’t want”. So these are simply thoughts appearing. Can you see this?

And then there are some contracted sensations behind the eyes, in the jaws and temples and the shoulders. And these are nothing else, but sensations. Is this clear?

But does any of these contracted sensations suggest or communicate any way that they are ‘intention feelings’?
Do these sensations convey any meaning?
Do they come with any label?
Are they judging themselves to be ‘intention feelings’?
Or only thoughts making these claims and labelling these raw sensation of ‘intention feelings’?

Do you see where I am getting at? That ‘intention feeling’ as such cannot be felt, cannot be experienced, there are only simply some unpleasant contracted sensations emerging without any meaning whatsoever?

Do you see that these sensations are totally meaningless, and only thoughts try to dress them up with meaning? Or assign meaning to them?


Please be careful not just to think these through, but actually check in experience what is really going on.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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