Guidance for deep looking

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:32 pm

Hi Mike,

Great!

We are only ever looking for facts of reality, but not knowledge of facts of reality. So, you'll need to put the teachings aside because they so far haven't worked. They won't work until this can be experienced with certainty and that's the path we're headed down.

We are going to strip away as much intellectualization as possible. We are going down to bare bones. To the simplest simplicity.

Intellectual understanding is what moves the needle the wrong way on the dial. We're going to move it back to the simplest position possible.

You have to look at each questions with the eyes of a little child, who has no intellectual knowledge about how things work.

Imagine, that you are a five-year old child, and I am your five-year old friend. We are playing together in the kindergarten. Do you get the picture? :)

So while we are playing, you are trying to explain to me that how you know that the cup in your hands is real.

So what do you tell me (to your five-year old friend)? How do you know that the cup in your hand is real?

And how do you know that a ghost is not real?


If the question and resulting answer seems too simplistic, good. It's leading us where we need to go.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:35 am

Hi Vivien

Ok 👍

Sounds like fun!
[So what do you tell me (to your five-year old friend)? How do you know that the cup in your hand is real?

And how do you know that a ghost is not real?
/quote]

I know the cup is real because I can feel it. It’s hot (if it has tea in it) , and I can see it. It’s white inside the tea is brown.

I know a ghost isn’t real because I can’t see one or feel or hear one.

Even though people tell ghost stories I know hosts are not real because I can’t see them ( or feel or touch)

Thanks
Mike

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:05 am

Hi Mike,
I know the cup is real because I can feel it. It’s hot (if it has tea in it) , and I can see it. It’s white inside the tea is brown.
I know a ghost isn’t real because I can’t see one or feel or hear one.
Even though people tell ghost stories I know hosts are not real because I can’t see them ( or feel or touch)
So the cup is real because it’s can be experienced, and the ghost is not real, because it cannot be experienced, right?

Look at thoughts. Remember a cup in front of you is real, tangible. It "exists" in a way that can be examined with the senses. Anyway, the cup can be pointed to and verified.

Why doesn't that happen with thought?

Why can’t you touch a thought?
Why can’t you smell a thought?
Why can’t you feel a thought?
Why can’t you smell a thought?

Why can’t you point your finger to a thought?


Can you see that there are ONLY TWO options:
Either EXPERIENCING something by touching, smelling, tasting, hearing, etc
or
IMAGINING = THINKING
Is this totally clear?


Please really-really examine these questions. Be very thorough. Don’t rush through this, since this is the BASIS of everything we are looking at here.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:16 am

Hi Vivien
So the cup is real because it’s can be experienced, and the ghost is not real, because it cannot be experienced, right?
Yes

The cup can be seen touched and heard. A host cannot except yes in imagination.
Look at thoughts. Remember a cup in front of you is real, tangible. It "exists" in a way that can be examined with the senses. Anyway, the cup can be pointed to and verified.

Why doesn't that happen with thought?

Right looking now there are thoughts. Different types - some words, some pictures. As you say the thoughts can’t be examined with the senses. They can’t be heard with ears or through eyes ( but they are experienced).

Thoughts can’t be examined with the senses because they are not part of the world that can be sensed.

Why can’t you touch a thought?
Why can’t you smell a thought?
Why can’t you feel a thought?
Why can’t you smell a thought?
Because a thought is not part of the sensory world. People’s voices, faces, car horns, rain, sun, the sky, a crying baby, a sharp stone all are part of that world.

Why can’t you point your finger to a thought?
Again because a thought is not part of the world that can be experienced by the senses.

Can you see that there are ONLY TWO options:
Either EXPERIENCING something by touching, smelling, tasting, hearing, etc
or
IMAGINING = THINKING
Is this totally clear?
Yes in the coffee shop now there are lots of sounds, people talking , coffee machine steaming, music playing, sound coffee beans being poured into machine, sensation of table against my arms , sensation of body,

And tables chairs people a few plants and cars passing by outside.

Right now this is being experienced, and then thoughts and emotions are also being experienced.

They appear to be separate worlds.

Stuff happens in the sensory world and thoughts/emotions appear in reaction.

Thanks Vivien
Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:57 pm

Hi Mike,
Right looking now there are thoughts. Different types - some words, some pictures. As you say the thoughts can’t be examined with the senses. They can’t be heard with ears or through eyes ( but they are experienced).
What do you mean by exactly “thoughts are experienced”?

Take a cup or any object into your hands. And investigate if the cup can be experience in any other way then with the 5 senses. Can you?

Can anything be experience in any other way than with the 5 senses?

Look carefully. Don’t just think, but really try to experience outside the 5 senses. Can this be done?

Thoughts can’t be examined with the senses because they are not part of the world that can be sensed.
So, is the content of a thought EVER REAL? ever experienced?
Right now this is being experienced, and then thoughts and emotions are also being experienced.
HOW thoughts are experienced?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:32 am

Hi Vivien

Thanks a lot for your reply

What do you mean by exactly “thoughts are experienced”?
All I mean is that thoughts and emotions are known. I can’t see them or hear or feel them but they are known. I mean a pink elephant can be imagined. Or right now as these words are being typed there is a voice ( thought) saying the words.

The voice can’t be heard through the ears but it is known / there is an awareness of it ( I can’t think of any other way to say it)

Take a cup or any object into your hands. And investigate if the cup can be experience in any other way then with the 5 senses. Can you?
Am doing it now- no the cup can be seen, felt , heard and tasted etc but not experienced in any other way.

There are thoughts about the cup but they are not direct experience of it.
Can anything be experience in any other way than with the 5 senses?

Look carefully. Don’t just think, but really try to experience outside the 5 senses. Can this be done?
Thanks Vivien- No nothing can be experienced outside of the senses. I’m looking now at the wall next to my table. There are different colours- different shades of black brown and grey, bumps in the surface. When the wall is touched there is slight coolness and toughness .

The colours are seen. The bumps are felt.

I’m trying now to sense the wall in another way ( from 5 senses).

I can’t.

This is clear thank you.
So, is the content of a thought EVER REAL? ever experienced?
As far as I can see Vivien thoughts cannot be sensed. But they are known . For instance her might be a thought 2+2=4 . This thought hasn’t been sensed but there’s an awareness of it ( again so don’t know any other way to say it)

Do you mind if I ask what we mean by real and imagined? We’re saying what can be sensed with the 5 senses and verified by touching etc is real, and whatever can’t sensed with those senses is not real- they are imaginary?
HOW thoughts are experienced
Not through the 5 senses.

I don’t know how to say how they are experienced:)

There is the phrase picture something in your minds eye. Right now I am picturing a golden lamp on red table.

So it’s being imagined but It can still be described so it must be known ?

Vivien I’m grateful for your help.

I’ve been spending quite a lot of time looking and examining not sure now it’s going:)
But am determined to continue.

Talk soon Mike

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:38 am

Hi Vivien

Thanks a lot for your reply

What do you mean by exactly “thoughts are experienced”?
All I mean is that thoughts and emotions are known. I can’t see them or hear or feel them but they are known. I mean a pink elephant can be imagined. Or right now as these words are being typed there is a voice ( thought) saying the words.

The voice can’t be heard through the ears but it is known / there is an awareness of it ( I can’t think of any other way to say it)

Take a cup or any object into your hands. And investigate if the cup can be experience in any other way then with the 5 senses. Can you?
Am doing it now- no the cup can be seen, felt , heard and tasted etc but not experienced in any other way.

There are thoughts about the cup but they are not direct experience of it.
Can anything be experience in any other way than with the 5 senses?

Look carefully. Don’t just think, but really try to experience outside the 5 senses. Can this be done?
Thanks Vivien- No nothing can be experienced outside of the senses. I’m looking now at the wall next to my table. There are different colours- different shades of black brown and grey, bumps in the surface. When the wall is touched there is slight coolness and toughness .

The colours are seen. The bumps are felt.

I’m trying now to sense the wall in another way ( from 5 senses).

I can’t.

This is clear thank you.
So, is the content of a thought EVER REAL? ever experienced?
As far as I can see Vivien thoughts cannot be sensed. But they are known . For instance her might be a thought 2+2=4 . This thought hasn’t been sensed but there’s an awareness of it ( again so don’t know any other way to say it)

Do you mind if I ask what we mean by real and imagined? We’re saying what can be sensed with the 5 senses and verified by touching etc is real, and whatever can’t sensed with those senses is not real- they are imaginary?
HOW thoughts are experienced
Not through the 5 senses.

I don’t know how to say how they are known

There is the phrase picture something in your minds eye. Right now I am picturing a golden lamp on red table.

So it’s being imagined but It can still be described so it must be known ?

Vivien I’m grateful for your help.

I’ve been spending quite a lot of time looking and examining not sure now it’s going:)
But am determined to continue.

Talk soon Mike

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:26 am

Hi Mike,

In this post there are some simple exercises for you. I would like to ask you to actually do the exercises, and not just think through them. Although they are very simple exercises, but exactly because of the simplicity it’s often overlooked. So please actually do them.
All I mean is that thoughts and emotions are known. I can’t see them or hear or feel them but they are known. I mean a pink elephant can be imagined. Or right now as these words are being typed there is a voice ( thought) saying the words.
The voice can’t be heard through the ears but it is known / there is an awareness of it ( I can’t think of any other way to say it)
Please close your eyes, and imagine an apple. Make it as vivid as you can.

When you imagine the apple, is there an experience of an apple, or there is just the knowing of the presence of an imagination?

Just because the presence of a thought about an apple is known, does it make the content of thought (apple) into real/experiencable thing?
There is the phrase picture something in your minds eye. Right now I am picturing a golden lamp on red table.
So it’s being imagined but It can still be described so it must be known ?
Yes, but just because the presence of the imagination (visual thought) of the ‘golden lamp on red table’ is known, does this mean that there is actual real ‘golden lamp on red table’?

What is actually there, a real ‘golden lamp on red table’ or just an imagination / THOUGHT ABOUT it?
Do you mind if I ask what we mean by real and imagined? We’re saying what can be sensed with the 5 senses and verified by touching etc is real, and whatever can’t sensed with those senses is not real- they are imaginary?
Here is an experiment for you. You will need a chair.

Choose a spot where there is some space both to your left and right.
Put the chair to your right.
Now turn slightly to your left, where there is some empty space.
Not turn back to your right, and investigate the chair thoroughly. Touch it, feel the fabric or the material it’s made of, look at its size, shape, color, texture.

Now turn back to your left to the empty space and try to imagine that there is the same chair you observed on your right. If it helps close your eyes. Imagine its fabric, size, color, shape, texture. Make it as vivid as you can. So you have two chairs, one on your right, and an imagined copy of it on your left.

Now open your eyes, and sit on that imagined chair of your left. Literally sit on it.
Can you do that? Why not?

Now turn to your right, and sit on the chair.
Can you do that? Why?

While sitting on the chair, investigate these:

Can the thought ‘sweet’ be tasted?
Can the thought ‘warm’ be felt?
Can the thought ‘fragrant scent’ be smelled?
Can the thought ‘beautiful sunset’ be seen?
Can the thought of ‘loud noise’ be heard?

Can the thought of drinking water make your thirst away?

Can the thought of ‘walking on a beach’ make your feet wet and sandy?

WHY not?

So what is the difference between real and imagined?

What is the difference between a chair and the THOUGHT OF a chair?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:16 am

Hi Vivien hope you’re well.
Please close your eyes, and imagine an apple. Make it as vivid as you can.

When you imagine the apple, is there an experience of an apple, or there is just the knowing of the presence of an imagination?
Ok yes there is just the visual thought- the knowing of that thought. The thought of the apple can be seen. The sound of a bite being taken, and the sight of its juicy ness. But yes it’s not an experience of an apple. Just the knowing of a thought of an apple.

The thought of the apple isn’t making me less hungry ( I see it can’t because it isn’t real, it isn’t an apple just a thought if one) but it is making me salivate. So a thought is not real it can’t be sensed but it can trigger real events like making my mouth water?
Just because the presence of a thought about an apple is known, does it make the content of thought (apple) into real/experiencable thing?

No. The thought of an apple can be known, and it can be very detailed but it can’t be eaten, it can’t be smelled or picked up, it can’t be squashed . Yes I see this - a thought however realistic is not tangible ( solid or verifiable)
There is the phrase picture something in your minds eye. Right now I am picturing a golden lamp on red table.
So it’s being imagined but It can still be described so it must be known ?
Yes, but just because the presence of the imagination (visual thought) of the ‘golden lamp on red table’ is known, does this mean that there is actual real ‘golden lamp on red table’?
No there is no lamp.
What is actually there, a real ‘golden lamp on red table’ or just an imagination / THOUGHT ABOUT it?
That’s clear just a thought about it😊
Now open your eyes, and sit on that imagined chair of your left. Literally sit on it.
Can you do that? Why not?
Ok have done this several times. I can’t sit on the imaginary chair because it is not there.
It is just imagined - by which I mean a thought. In this case a visual thought.

I don’t really know what a thought is it I do know I can’t touch it, see it that I can’t eat or drink a thought or sit on it😊
Now turn to your right, and sit on the chair.
Can you do that? Why?
All I can say is that I can sit on it because it’s s real chair! It’s solid I CAN touch it. If I get hit over the head with it it will hurt. I can’t get hurt over the head with a thought.
While sitting on the chair, investigate these:

Can the thought ‘sweet’ be tasted?
Can the thought ‘warm’ be felt?
Can the thought ‘fragrant scent’ be smelled?
Can the thought ‘beautiful sunset’ be seen?
Can the thought of ‘loud noise’ be heard?

Can the thought of drinking water make your thirst away?

Can the thought of ‘walking on a beach’ make your feet wet and sandy?
No the thought of sweet can’t be tasted. I’m thinking of a spoon of sugar now, can’t taste it.



But sometimes I might absentminded pick up a glass of milk expecting it to be orange juice, and for a split second the milk tastes like OJ.

So that’s just the thought of OJ sticking around and mixing in with the senses taste of milk?

Sorry back to the questio

No the thought warm can’t be felt. I’m picturing
an open fire now. I can’t warm my hands on it. Or burn myself.

( I’ve heard of people who can make themselves hotter by thinking they are next to a fire for example. This is just a story not on my ext.

Only read I mention it is I can see that thoughts visual or otherwise are not real , not verifiable, but ( ? Because they are believed in) they have an effect on the real world.

So thoughts about objects are not real. I can see that, what about thoughts about danger for example?

If I am about to cross the road and hear a truck then an image of the truck might flash in my mind.

So what I mean is even thoughts thoughts are unreal as they don’t exist in any tangible way do they sometimes give information about the real world?

As before Vivien I’m still grateful for your help.

I’m not sure why these objections come up. I’m looking and just trying to be honest rather than difficult 😊

Feeling a bit fed up with my life situation - I’m , and feeling like I need more purpose and meaning and connection!

I know thee are thoughts about self improvement- improving my life situation but but they are there.

Anyway thanks again
Mike











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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:22 am

Hi Vivien hope you’re well.
Please close your eyes, and imagine an apple. Make it as vivid as you can.

When you imagine the apple, is there an experience of an apple, or there is just the knowing of the presence of an imagination?
Ok yes there is just the visual thought- the knowing of that thought. The thought of the apple can be seen. The sound of a bite being taken, and the sight of its juicy ness. But yes it’s not an experience of an apple. Just the knowing of a thought of an apple.

The thought of the apple isn’t making me less hungry ( I see it can’t because it isn’t real, it isn’t an apple just a thought if one) but it is making me salivate. So a thought is not real it can’t be sensed but it can trigger real events like making my mouth water?
Just because the presence of a thought about an apple is known, does it make the content of thought (apple) into real/experiencable thing?

No. The thought of an apple can be known, and it can be very detailed but it can’t be eaten, it can’t be smelled or picked up, it can’t be squashed . Yes I see this - a thought however realistic is not tangible ( solid or verifiable)
There is the phrase picture something in your minds eye. Right now I am picturing a golden lamp on red table.
So it’s being imagined but It can still be described so it must be known ?
Yes, but just because the presence of the imagination (visual thought) of the ‘golden lamp on red table’ is known, does this mean that there is actual real ‘golden lamp on red table’?
No there is no lamp.
What is actually there, a real ‘golden lamp on red table’ or just an imagination / THOUGHT ABOUT it?
That’s clear just a thought about it😊
Now open your eyes, and sit on that imagined chair of your left. Literally sit on it.
Can you do that? Why not?
Ok have done this several times. I can’t sit on the imaginary chair because it is not there.
It is just imagined - by which I mean a thought. In this case a visual thought.

I don’t really know what a thought is it I do know I can’t touch it, see it that I can’t eat or drink a thought or sit on it😊
Now turn to your right, and sit on the chair.
Can you do that? Why?
All I can say is that I can sit on it because it’s s real chair! It’s solid I CAN touch it. If I get hit over the head with it it will hurt. I can’t get hurt over the head with a thought.
While sitting on the chair, investigate these:

Can the thought ‘sweet’ be tasted?
Can the thought ‘warm’ be felt?
Can the thought ‘fragrant scent’ be smelled?
Can the thought ‘beautiful sunset’ be seen?
Can the thought of ‘loud noise’ be heard?

Can the thought of drinking water make your thirst away?

Can the thought of ‘walking on a beach’ make your feet wet and sandy?
No the thought of sweet can’t be tasted. I’m thinking of a spoon of sugar now, can’t taste it.



But sometimes I might absentminded pick up a glass of milk expecting it to be orange juice, and for a split second the milk tastes like OJ.

So that’s just the thought of OJ sticking around and mixing in with the senses taste of milk?

Sorry back to the questio

No the thought warm can’t be felt. I’m picturing
an open fire now. I can’t warm my hands on it. Or burn myself.

( I’ve heard of people who can make themselves hotter by thinking they are next to a fire for example. This is just a story not on my ext.

Only read I mention it is I can see that thoughts visual or otherwise are not real , not verifiable, but ( ? Because they are believed in) they have an effect on the real world.

So thoughts about objects are not real. I can see that, what about thoughts about danger for example?

If I am about to cross the road and hear a truck then an image of the truck might flash in my mind.

So what I mean is even thoughts thoughts are unreal as they don’t exist in any tangible way do they sometimes give information about the real world?


No fragrant thought can’t be smelled
No I can’t make my feet wet and sandy by thinking about walking on beach
Can the thought ‘fragrant scent’ be smelled?
Can the thought ‘beautiful sunset’ be seen?
Can the thought of ‘loud noise’ be heard?

Can the thought of drinking water make your thirst away?
No thought beautiful sunset can’t be seen
Thought of loud noise can’t be heard, can’t hurt my ears
Thought of drinking water can’t make my thirst go way

As before Vivien I’m still grateful for your help.

I’m not sure why these objections come up. I’m looking and just trying to be honest rather than difficult 😊

Feeling a bit fed up with my life situation - I’m , and feeling like I need more purpose and meaning and connection!

I know thee are thoughts about self improvement- improving my life situation but but they are there.

Anyway thanks again
Mike











No.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:20 am

Hi Mike,
So thoughts about objects are not real. I can see that, what about thoughts about danger for example?
If I am about to cross the road and hear a truck then an image of the truck might flash in my mind.
So what I mean is even thoughts thoughts are unreal as they don’t exist in any tangible way do they sometimes give information about the real world?
You are trying to grasp this intellectually.

Is the visual image of a truck an actual real truck or just an imagined one? We are not trying to solve and figure out philosophical questions, and ponder on the consequences of thoughts.

We are just simply examining if thought contents are experienced or just imagined.

Since seeing the difference between experience (reality) and thought (imagination) is the BASIS (a tool) that will help you to see through the illusion of the self.
an image of the truck might flash in my mind.
What mind? How is mind experienced?
Is there mind outside of words that speak of one?
Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from 'a mind'?

Feeling a bit fed up with my life situation - I’m , and feeling like I need more purpose and meaning and connection!
I know thee are thoughts about self improvement- improving my life situation but but they are there.
Let’s look at these. Now you can see the difference between experience (reality) and thought (fiction).

So now, please LOOK for the ME/I that wants to improve itself.

WHERE is this me/I EXACTLY? – find its exact physical location

Search through the whole body from head to toe as if you were looking for your lost keys.

Where is the ONE that needs to be improved?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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