Guidance for deep looking

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Mike1001
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Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:58 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding is that it means there is no separate individual self. There is no manager in the head deciding what I say and do. There is a feeling of a separate I and a feeling that this separate I does things but that is an illusion. Actions thoughts etc happen without any input from a separate self. However I still feel in my day to day life that there is a separate I and I operate as if I believe that.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for help to see and live this truth - logically I can see that there is no separate self and logically I can see the suffering that believing in a separate self causes. But deep down I don’t believe it. Something holds me back - fear probably of losing control of my life and not being able to look after myself and my family etc.
Logically if there is no separate individual doer this fear doesn’t make sense but I still feel it.
I am looking for someone to help me feel/know and live by what I understand on a logical thinking level.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Contact with a person who has seen this truth and who will guide me with questions and perhaps just by their presence to see through the illusion of a separate self.
I have tried to do this myself but keep coming up against resistance in the form of fear or physical symptoms which put me off. I would hope that the guide could help me push through this resistance.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I began meditating about 10 years ago and have mediated on and off since then sometimes quite intensively. I've spent time in Buddhist monasteries in the UK, and read numerous books on meditation/spirituality and non dual enquiry. In the last year I’ve had some sessions with a non dual teacher.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:45 am

Hi,

My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self' and other related topics.

At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we begin, here are links to information I would like you to read please.
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the 'Post Reply" button at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.
To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration (for example, what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change). Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Could you please write a bit more about the fear and resistance of seeing through the illusion?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:26 am

Hi Vivien I’m sorry for the delay on replying.
I’m ready to get going now if you are still available to guide me.


In answer to your questions
how will life change?
I’m not sure! I have a number of expectations from reading the accounts of other people who have been guided etc.

Currently I behave and live as if there is a separate individual I who controls my life. I act and believe as if I ( Mike) is doing everything and as if Mike must put in a lot of effort to keep things on track ( to stay healthy , make money to live a happy life to try to get on with people , and to be satisfied).

Of course this is exhausting. I know this but ultimately seem to be trapped in this belief ( of the separate I because I fear that I will not look after myself and my interests , that things will fall apart if I don’t.

So if I see and live from the knowledge that there is no separate I no controller then I pull expect life to be a lot easier ( but even as I say this I feel some fear/ contraction in my stomach).

I would not have to try all the time to make life better, to stop things going wrong etc because I would know there is no Seprate Mike ( more than a thought) to do the controlling.

From what I have read people who have seen this still experience the urge to try to control things but this drops away as there is no belief in the I for the urge to attach to.

I would expect / hope that I would become way more tolerant as I would see that the behaviour of others is happening spontaneously rather than at the direction of a separate person/ identity.
how will I change ?
I would expect to see life and the people I interact with and my work in a very different way.

If there are no seprate I’s then no one is intentionally being selfish, mean, angry or neurotic it’s just the energy unfolding, life unfolding - and if I see this and live from it I would expect to be much more relaxed about life and the future...

But I realise people who have been through the gate still experience painful emotions, fear anger etc.

It seems to me though that if it is truly seem that there is no seprate I and no possibility of control then these emotions should not hang around ( still arise but not stick) and that if they do arise I would not necessarily believe them.
what will be different

I think in some ways everything will be different - life would be seen from a completely different perspective- relationships , work would all be different but the dream of life ( if that’s what it is) would continue...
what is missing
I don’t know! But I’m not settled not at peace , feel like I should be doing something that settles this question ( what am I , how should I live, how can I be happy?)
oils you please say something more about the fear and resistance of looking through the illusion


When I see ( feel that I see ) thee is no seprate I here, no one really I experience some different emotions.

Sometimes it’s triggeted by doing the Douglas Harding exercise of looking back to see the space I am looking from, or if I start talking to my wife about time ( like where is yesterday or tomorrow) or from talks with non duality teacher...

Initially I might feel excited ( like I be got it) then I like I have to hold onto it. Then that I can’t - it’s too much pressure.

Then sometimes fear - a contraction in stomach - a feeling of alienation and when I look at my wife or daughter an unsettled feeling...

Then when it comes to everyday life I fear I need to be me to cope with it - I feel there needs to be a controller otherwise things will fall apart.

Like I’m typing this now on my phone and am down to5% power and I feel like I have to rush to get my thoughts down before the power runs out.

So I have to make the effort ( it feels like)

It feels like this in in most of my life if I don’t make some effort , try to control and plan organise things then they will fall apart.

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:24 pm

Hi Vivien

Just wanted to send an additional note to what I said earlier...

After answering the questions I felt I don’t know something different ( not sure how to describe it but it was as if I was testing the possibility that there was no seprate I if that makes sense)

I wrote the answers while in a cafe then went home where I almost immediately got into an argument with my wife. it was as if the seprate sense if I was reasserting itself (maybe).


Talk soon
Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:48 am

Hi Mike,

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations results in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises ‘in the body’. Is there any resistance to any of it?
From what I have read people who have seen this still experience the urge to try to control things but this drops away as there is no belief in the I for the urge to attach to.
Fortunately and unfortunately, there are lots of information nowadays about awakening with all sorts of stories. The unfortunate part of it is that others read those stories, and they create all sorts of expectations and fantasies and even fears based on those stories.

There is ALREADY no self, and it has never been, and yet seeming control still happens.
So why would anything change just because the self has seen through?
Nothing really will change, control will still happen.
The only change is the RECOGNITION that behind the thoughts of control there is no one there.
I would expect / hope that I would become way more tolerant as I would see that the behaviour of others is happening spontaneously rather than at the direction of a separate person/ identity.
It’s not that simple. Behaviours and the way we relate to others are conditioned habits. And just because the self is seen through, it doesn’t mean that all conditionings will be swept out in an instant. This cannot be further from the truth.
Only the core belief of being a separate self is seen through which also includes others beliefs that support this idea. However, like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots (beliefs, patterns) that need undoing. Falling away of conditionings can last at the end of the organism. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key. LU only guides to the realisation of ‘no separate self’.

Also, personality problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.
I would expect to see life and the people I interact with and my work in a very different way.
If you expect that your relationship to others will be VERY DIFFERENT, then you might be disappointed. As I wrote above, how we relate to others are conditioned habits and they often stem from childhood problems. These won’t go away. It will require lots and lots of further looking to slowly and gradually dissolve them.
If there are no seprate I’s then no one is intentionally being selfish, mean, angry or neurotic it’s just the energy unfolding, life unfolding - and if I see this and live from it I would expect to be much more relaxed about life and the future...
Sorry to bring you bad news, but selfing thoughts won’t stop. Emotions like anger won’t stop either. Personality problems, like being neurotic will require lots of work and won’t go away in an instant.

Seeing through the self is not a magic reset button, which makes all our emotions and personality issues to go away.

Many seekers believe that they can replace their unpleasant emotions with pleasant ones. However, all emotions are states (both pleasant and unpleasant), and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting WHATEVER is arising in this moment (even the so called negative emotions).

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.
But I realise people who have been through the gate still experience painful emotions, fear anger etc.
Exactly!
It seems to me though that if it is truly seem that there is no seprate I and no possibility of control then these emotions should not hang around ( still arise but not stick) and that if they do arise I would not necessarily believe them.
It depends on how deep its roots. If it stems back to a childhood trauma (what we all have) then it can hang around, and lots of further looking is needed to gradually lessen its grip.
I think in some ways everything will be different - life would be seen from a completely different perspective- relationships , work would all be different but the dream of life ( if that’s what it is) would continue...
You are expecting something grandeur! Seeing through the self won’t come with fireworks. It’s usually a subtle shift in perception. It’s a relevant ship, but not with fireworks and trumpets.
But I’m not settled not at peace , feel like I should be doing something that settles this question ( what am I , how should I live, how can I be happy?)
All right. What I can see from your comments, that you want a better life, you want to feel better, you want to be happy… etc. In other words you want to a better / happier version of yourself.

And of course, there is no problem with wanting to feel happy, however seeing through the self is not about having a better version of me.

It’s rather about seeing, that the ‘me’ that seems to be the center of experience, to which all those negative and unpleasant emotion happen TO, is NOT THERE.

It’s about seeing, that these emotions are NOT happening to you.
Since there is no you, whom this emotions can happen to.
The emotions are there, but they are not belonging to or attached to anything.
The emotions just free floating, without being hooked to anything.
The emotions are there, but you (the self) are not.

Now let’s investigate your fears.
Currently I behave and live as if there is a separate individual I who controls my life. I act and believe as if I ( Mike) is doing everything and as if Mike must put in a lot of effort to keep things on track ( to stay healthy , make money to live a happy life to try to get on with people , and to be satisfied).
Of course this is exhausting. I know this but ultimately seem to be trapped in this belief ( of the separate I because I fear that I will not look after myself and my interests , that things will fall apart if I don’t.
There are 2 BIG beliefs here.

1. There is a YOU, there is ME inside this body
2. And this you/me can lose control

This cannot be further from the truth.

Seeing through control, doesn’t mean that YOU will be able to see that YOU ARE NOT in control.
This would be really a hopeless situation. I exist, I AM, but I have no control over anything.
Seeing through the self means something completely different thing!
The reason why there is no control, is because THERE IS NO I AM!

So it’s not about you losing control, but rather to see that the YOU who is so afraid of losing control, is NOT THERE.

So not the control is missing from the picture, but YOU!
Can you see this?


Please read my above comments very thoroughly line by line several times.
Then when it comes to everyday life I fear I need to be me to cope with it - I feel there needs to be a controller otherwise things will fall apart.
There is ALREADY no controller.
It has NEVER EVER BEEN.
The self/controller has always been just a fantasy.

How could things fall apart if the self has always been just imagined?
If seeing no self meant things falling apart with just plain chaos, then things MUST HAVE BEEN fallen apart all along! Since the self is ALREADY not there!
Are things being fallen apart at this moment?
If not, then this is how is going to be AFTER the recognition of no self.
Can you see this?

Then sometimes fear - a contraction in stomach - a feeling of alienation and when I look at my wife or daughter an unsettled feeling...
There is nothing that could die or cease to exist.
There is no self that could die.
Just because the self is seen through, nothing will die, since there has never been a self there in the first place.
There is no self that could be annihilated or killed.
The only thing that changes is the RECOGNITION that there has never been a self there.
But nothing else will change.

The sense of self will still arise. The illusion of the self will still be there.
So nothing will be lost, only a belief in the self will fall away.

Self is ALREADY not there, so it’s literally impossible to annihilate it! Can you see this?

It feels like this in in most of my life if I don’t make some effort , try to control and plan organise things then they will fall apart.
This is just a fearful story you are telling yourself. You are frightened by your own imagination. Can you see this?
I wrote the answers while in a cafe then went home where I almost immediately got into an argument with my wife. it was as if the seprate sense if I was reasserting itself (maybe).
Do you think after what I wrote above that after seeing through the self, there will never be any argument in your life again (with your wife or anybody)?

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?

Before starting, please read my above comments a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?


Please read this post several times very carefully before replying.
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:39 am

Hello Vivien thanks so much for your reply

so control is not missing from the picture but You

Can you see this?
In all honesty I don’t know if there is a me here or not. Things happen and ( especially when I feel threatened in some way) and I seems to take action.

Actually if I look closely ( afterwards) its more like a feeling of having to take action arises and I totally believe I am acting ( or I forget about any other possibility - it seems like ‘I’ am taken over / overwhelmed but the feeling of a me acting ( seems like a very strange sentence when I read it back!)

But when it comes to control I can see that if there was an I a separate Mike who had no control then yes that would be hopeless.

I can see that if there is no separate I no separate Mike then how could there be control but as I read this I still feel like there is a me writing and reading...


I don’t know how to see if there is a seprate I. when I look I don’t really know what looking for...

Also when I read the statement you are missing from the picture there is definitely a feeling of fear - disorientation...
How could things fall apart if the self has always been just imagined?
If seeing no self meant things falling apart with just plain chaos, then things MUST HAVE BEEN fallen apart all along! Since the self is ALREADY not there!
Are things being fallen apart at this moment?
If not, then this is how is going to be AFTER the recognition of no self.
Can you see this?
how could things fall apart if the self has always been imagined?
I guess they could in the sense that anything could happen ( I could lose my job, get run down by a car etc) but none of it would really matter if there was no individual self.

There would be no one to control events or to get upset about them ( but I guess feeling about life would still arise from ‘my ‘ point of view

if seen no self meant things falling apart with total chaos the. Things MUST have been falling apart all along
Yes I can see that - if there is no separate self and never has been that means there is and never has been a controller and despite that things have happened...

A lot of stuff happens that I don’t like - but if there is no I then that sentence doesn’t make sense ( should read ? A lot of stuff happens which triggers painful or unpleasant emotions here?)

But in nearly every moment ‘I’ act as if there is a seprate I so at this point ‘I ‘ still believe there is one!

( not sure if that sentence makes sense either - if there is no I how can I believe anything? But ‘I ‘ still feel as if there is an ‘I’ who does believe and act.
Are things falling apart at this moment?
No - lots of things happen that irritate "me", "I" worry about a lot of stuff that might happen in the future (I know that I cant see the future - ie if I look I cant see it anywhere but there is still a strong belief that it exists and that "I" must take action to make sure the future is ok.

But things aren't falling apart - its more that I far they will and stuff happens that I don't like.

f not, then this is how is going to be AFTER the recognition of no self.
Can you see this?

Yes logically I can see that if there is no self - no separate Mike and there never has been then there is no one to control anything and that therefore things events must have been happening without the input of a me - and that when it is seen that there is no me they will continue to happen.

But I dont feel this. There is still a strong sense that there is a me typing these words feeling like I need to get various things done today, worrying about stuff. Even though when I look I can see thoughts come up on there own.
SELF is already not there so it impossible to annhilate it. Can you see that?

I can see that if self is not there then it is impossible to annihilate it - Yes I can see this logically.

But if there is no self no controller then that would mean that this conversation we are having is just happening spontaously

- with no controller. Words thoughts just arise?

This does confuse me for example when you give advice regarding this process (to be honest not read spiritual books for the duration of the process etc - it seems as if there is a person advising another person- and "I" experience a tight feeling that I associate with making effort.
You are frightemed by your own imagination can you see this?
I can see that all this stuff (my worries about the future) appear as thoughts and feelings and that havign a thought about somethng doesnt mean it will happen. But again even as I say it I the feelign is still there.
Do you think after seeign through the self that there will never be any arguemnt with your wife or anybody else?f
No - there will still be arguments or not - I dont know...
can we agree on this
Yes Im happy to not listen to teachers or read related books for the duration of this process

is there any resistance to it?
Yes - At times some feeling of excitement also fear contraction feeling and feelings thoughts that I cant do this - its too much. But also that I do want to do it. But over the years I keep coming back to some form of looking so it seems to be something that I am doing - will do...

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:25 am

Hi Mike,
I don’t know how to see if there is a seprate I. when I look I don’t really know what looking for...
The good news is that you don’t have to know HOW to look for the self. To know the 'how' is my job :) I will give questions that will help with the how. You just have to honestly follow those questions and look where they are going to point to.
There would be no one to control events or to get upset about them ( but I guess feeling about life would still arise from ‘my ‘ point of view
There is ALREADY no one controlling events.
There has NEVER EVER been a controller/me.
It has ALWAYS been just a fiction, a fantasy but not a reality.

There is ALREADY no one that is upset when there is upset.
There is just upset without anyone doing it.
lot of stuff happens that I don’t like - but if there is no I then that sentence doesn’t make sense ( should read ? A lot of stuff happens which triggers painful or unpleasant emotions here?)
The problem is NOT with the unpleasant emotions.
The problem is that it’s BELIEVED that those emotions are happening TO ME.
It’s MY emotion. MY pain.

So the solution is NOT to not have any unpleasant sensations any more (which is by the way impossible), but rather to SEE that those emotions/feelings/sensations don’t happen TO anything or anyone.
not sure if that sentence makes sense either - if there is no I how can I believe anything? But ‘I ‘ still feel as if there is an ‘I’ who does believe and act.
Believing happens without a believer.
But I dont feel this. There is still a strong sense that there is a me typing these words feeling like I need to get various things done today, worrying about stuff. Even though when I look I can see thoughts come up on there own.
No problem. This what we will investigate together.
But if there is no self no controller then that would mean that this conversation we are having is just happening spontaously
- with no controller. Words thoughts just arise?
Yes. But it’s not enough to understand it intellectually, but it needs to be seen experientially.
We will investigate the topic of control later.
This does confuse me for example when you give advice regarding this process (to be honest not read spiritual books for the duration of the process etc - it seems as if there is a person advising another person- and "I" experience a tight feeling that I associate with making effort.
Then what? Just because there is no control or controller, it doesn’t mean that we stop using these words. Seeming control still happens. Decisions will be made just as now. Actions will be performed just as now.
The only difference is to see that there is no decision maker behind those decisions.
I can see that all this stuff (my worries about the future) appear as thoughts and feelings and that havign a thought about somethng doesnt mean it will happen. But again even as I say it I the feelign is still there.
We are not trying to eradicate this feeling.

At first, you have to understand intellectually that literally there is nothing to be afraid of about seeing no self.
To understand intellectually that all the fears you talked about are just fantasies, and seeing through the self won’t be manifest how you imagined.

There is literally nothing to be afraid of. If you can understand this intellectually, then when those feelings arise, you have an option to not take them so seriously. Those feelings will arise, since those are conditioned habits. But just because those feelings arise, it doesn’t mean that there is anything fearful about seeing through the self.
Yes - At times some feeling of excitement also fear contraction feeling and feelings thoughts that I cant do this - its too much. But also that I do want to do it. But over the years I keep coming back to some form of looking so it seems to be something that I am doing - will do...
So if you imagine seeing no self will have negative consequences, then why you want to do this?
You don’t have to if your fears are too strong.

Which is stronger your fear or your desire to see no self?
What is the ratio? 50/50? Or less, or more?

Has there been any resistance or fear coming up by reading my comments above?


Vivien
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:09 pm

Hi Vivien
So if you imagine seeing no self will have negative consequences, then why you want to do this?
I think I imagine both positive and negative consequences but overall positive.
Which is stronger your fear or your desire to see no self?
What is the ratio? 50/50? Or less, or more
Desire to see no self is stronger maybe 70//30 ratio fear desire but overall I know despite any fears that I do want to see , and you reassurance earlier helps a lot ( if I know there is nothing to fear then don’t need to take fears seriously)
Has there been any resistance or fear coming up by reading my comments above?
Not so much to these comments- actually I feel more reassured then resistance

Best wishes
Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:06 am

Hi Mike,
Not so much to these comments- actually I feel more reassured then resistance
Great! Then let’s start it :)

This investigation will be very simple. You won’t need your intellectual mind to figure out anything.

We are only ever looking for facts of reality, but not knowledge of facts of reality. So, you'll need to put the teachings aside because they so far haven't worked. They won't work until this can be experienced with certainty and that's the path we're headed down.

We are going to strip away as much intellectualization as possible. We are going down to bare bones. To the simplest simplicity.

Intellectual understanding is what moves the needle the wrong way on the dial. We're going to move it back to the simplest position possible.

This investigation will be very-very simple. You won’t need your intellectual mind to figure out anything.

You have to look at each questions with the eyes of a little child, who has no intellectual knowledge about how things work.

I will at times ask things repeatedly, or in very simple language. If that happens, trust the process as it's meant to stop the intellectualizing an allow exploration of the experiential.

So, here are the first questions to look at:

What the ‘I’ is for you?

What is the experience of being you?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:56 am

Hi Vivien

Ok great ready to go then😊

What the ‘I’ is for you?

What is the experience of being you?

What is the I for me


Ha I’m not sure!
Generally I think it’s a feeling - here

By here I mean somewhere behind my eyes - actually mostly on the right side - strange though it sounds I feel the sense of i is also in the feeling of muscular tension in my face ( and head and ? throat

Whenever I feel threatened get challenged or feel some strong emotion I think there is some increase in these physical sensations and a narrowing of attention onto the sense of me mixed with whatever emotion I am feeling .

Also the voice in my head - the one I feel like I think in deliberately feels like me. It feels intimate so for instance as I write this and say the words in my head in what seems like my voice I feel as if that is me.


The experience of being me

Emotions seem to dominate my experience and drive my actions.

Fear anger ( often at a low level but still there ( or desire for pleasure, concern about the future , about my health ( so that’s either fear or satisfaction depending on how I think my health is), worries about work money, dislike of people st work... then thoughts about how I can reduce work stress, find a different way of earning money, do something satisfying ( so lots of thoughts about how to fix my life situation)

Feelings of competition with others - and annoyance st others perceived inconsiderate behaviour etc

And then efforts to calm or observe thoughts feelings by meditation or other methods.


So I would say the experience of me is dominated by thoughts and emotions usually ( probably always) related to protecting me ( my sense of me)

Best wishes
Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:41 pm

Hi Mike,
Generally I think it’s a feeling - here
By here I mean somewhere behind my eyes - actually mostly on the right side - strange though it sounds I feel the sense of i is also in the feeling of muscular tension in my face ( and head and ? throat
Whenever I feel threatened get challenged or feel some strong emotion I think there is some increase in these physical sensations and a narrowing of attention onto the sense of me mixed with whatever emotion I am feeling .
I would like to ask you to observe this sensation as often as you can remember during the day. Lots of times (preferably hundred times :)

So put the attention onto this sensation that is supposed to be the ‘feeling of me’ or the ‘sense of me’.
Just FEEL this sensation.

And then investigate:

What makes this sensation into a me? In other words, how do you know that this sensation = me?

When ignoring all thoughts, does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it’s the ‘sense of me’?

What do you find?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:16 am

Hi Vivien
What makes this sensation into a me? In other words, how do you know that this sensation = me?
My first answer was that the sensation felt very close. It was here. But the more I look for / at the sensation the more I’m not sure what it is.

It’s like when I first look at the sensation that feels like me ( in the muscular tension in my face etc) it stil feels like me but the longer I look the less it does.

I come to a point quite quickly where I realise there’s another me looking at these sensations that I thought were me- then there are often some more sensations associated with this new me which I can focus on. Then I realise again there seems to be a me looking at those sensations as well.

It’s feels like the feeling of me arises in the physical expressions that my face makes ( the muscular tension etc) and that I am aware of this indirectly somehow but when I look directly at the feeling of me it doesn’t really feel like me anymore.

What still does feel like me is the voice in my head which I can hear as I write this.

Often I am aware of this indirectly but when I turn my attention to it ( the voice in my head) it still feels like me.

( the sensations in my face and any emotions that arise feel like me somehow but when ‘I’ look at them they don’t (if that makes sense) .

It’s like as soon as I look at an emotion which when I was aware of it indirectly felt like me ( like I was merged with it) it doesn’t feel like me anymore.

But in the next moment when another emotion ( together with the muscular tension in the face)
happen ‘I’ become merged with the emotion and sensations again.

But my thoughts ( voice inside my head) still often feel like me. It feels very close and intimate and here.

I think overall the voice inside my head and the sensations of muscular tension in my face etc feel like because they feel so close physically like they are here and because they are ? so familiar...
When ignoring all thoughts, does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it’s the ‘sense of me’?
Yes somehow the sensations do feel like me but this feeling comes and goes. The more I look st them I think the less strong the feeling- but then new feelings sensations arise which feel like me..

Thanks Vivien
Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:37 pm

Hi Mike,
V: When ignoring all thoughts, does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it’s the ‘sense of me’?
M: Yes somehow the sensations do feel like me but this feeling comes and goes. The more I look st them I think the less strong the feeling- but then new feelings sensations arise which feel like me..
Please read my above question. I started with: “when ignoring all thoughts…”

Are you SURE that the sensation ITSELF suggesting or communicating that ‘it’s the sense of me’? Are you sure about this?

Can a sensation communicate at any way?

Or rather there is just a pure/raw sensation (without doing or saying anything) and ONLY THOGHTS suggest that this sensation is the ‘sense of me’?
I think overall the voice inside my head and the sensations of muscular tension in my face etc feel like because they feel so close physically like they are here and because they are ? so familiar...
Does the PURE sensation itself suggest/communicate at any way that it’s familiar?
Or ONLY THOUGHTS interpret this sensation as ‘familiar’?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:10 am

Hi Vivien
Are you SURE that the sensation ITSELF suggesting or communicating that ‘it’s the sense of me’? Are you sure about this?
No actually when I look you are right the feelings of contraction muscular tension in my face /head do not in themselves communicate the sense of I.

The pure sensations don’t communicate a self of me but there is a thought/belief that seems to come with the sensations that gives the sense of I.
Can a sensation communicate at any way?
No - unless I suppose it is to give information about the body ( like hunger or physical pain etc) but no they can’t communicate in any other way.

As I look now I can see/feel the sensations thought I usually associate with me - your right they are just sensations. They seem to be felt here but that belief /feeling that they are me is just that- a thought. Yes I can see that.
[quote/]
Or rather there is just a pure/raw sensation (without doing or saying anything) and ONLY THOGHTS suggest that this sensation is the ‘sense of me’?[/quote]

Yes it’s raw sensation with thought/belief added on top.


Does the PURE sensation itself suggest/communicate at any way that it’s familiar?
No it doesn’t- not by itself.
Or ONLY THOUGHTS interpret this sensation as ‘familiar’?
Yes exactly they interpret the sensations- the thoughts just seem to close to the sense or arise at the same time that I could see .

Thanks Vivien

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:26 am

Hi Mike,
You did a nice looking.
As I look now I can see/feel the sensations thought I usually associate with me - your right they are just sensations. They seem to be felt here but that belief /feeling that they are me is just that- a thought. Yes I can see that.
Yes. So there are just sensations and only thoughts label them as ‘me’.

So the ‘sense of self’ is just a mislabelled sensation.
Is this totally clear experientially?

So, then where is your-SELF?

Is there a self/I/me at all?
If yes, where is it exactly?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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