Separating fact from fiction

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OnlyOne
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Re: Separating fact from fiction

Postby OnlyOne » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:13 pm

Hello Vivien,
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?

Yes, this is totally clear.
Is it completely clear that there is no I/me choosing or deciding?

Yes, this is totally clear.
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?

Yes, this is totally clear.

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Vivien
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Re: Separating fact from fiction

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:25 pm

Hi OnlyOne,

How does it FEEL to see that there is no doer/chooser/decider and not even choosing and deciding?

How do you feel about the way your inquiry is going?

So look now for any evidence of a separate 'self'. Is there any?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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OnlyOne
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Re: Separating fact from fiction

Postby OnlyOne » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:25 pm

Hello Vivien,

How does it FEEL to see that there is no doer/chooser/decider and not even choosing and deciding?

This is hard to describe. That knowing makes things easier/simpler. The complexity of thought content can be seen to be unrelated to what is actually here and now. There is a kind of resignation to things happening as they happen rather than what seemed to previously be a sense of denial and the idea that something could be done.
How do you feel about the way your inquiry is going?

There's looking, looking and more looking - validation. When there's 'discomfort', it's apparent there's no one who can do anything. When mental content is looked at and recognised as unreal with no one actually observing, what's best described as 'melting' occurs - thought solidity/stickiness diminishes. It does seem there's some automatic process which is happening.


It's easy to recognise thoughts of 'looking' as false - there's no one here who's doing that.

So look now for any evidence of a separate 'self'. Is there any?

Every time I look, there's nothing to be found.

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Vivien
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Re: Separating fact from fiction

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:33 am

Hi OnlyOne,
When there's 'discomfort', it's apparent there's no one who can do anything.
OK. So there is no one that could do anything with the discomfort.

And WHAT is FEELING this discomfort?

WHERE here is the FEELER? - Find the exact location

Is the feeler inside the chest?
Somewhere close to the heart? Left or right?
Or maybe it’s in the head?
Where? In the middle of the head?
Or maybe closer to the eyes?
Where exactly? – pin down the exact location

V: So look now for any evidence of a separate 'self'. Is there any?
O: Every time I look, there's nothing to be found.
And when there is no looking, is there any evidence of a self?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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OnlyOne
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Re: Separating fact from fiction

Postby OnlyOne » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:46 pm

Hello Vivien,

And WHAT is FEELING this discomfort?

The feeling just appears - to nothing.
WHERE here is the FEELER? - Find the exact location

I can't find it.
Is the feeler inside the chest?
Somewhere close to the heart? Left or right?
Or maybe it’s in the head?
Where? In the middle of the head?
Or maybe closer to the eyes?
Where exactly? – pin down the exact location
I've looked everywhere, there's only the feeling/sensation and nothing else.

And when there is no looking, is there any evidence of a self?
It sometimes seems that there needs to be looking to confirm that there's no evidence of self - but there is just looking and no looker. But even that's not correct either - there's the suggestion of looking arising but no action of looking is taking place.

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Vivien
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Re: Separating fact from fiction

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:21 am

Hi OnlyOne,

Please look at the display before you.

Now, could you tell me where you are looking at it FROM?

WHAT is there? Is there a ‘me’ in that direction? What do you find there?


The everyday assumption is that there are:

1. Seer
2. Seeing
3. Seen

Can you find all three? How many are actually there?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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OnlyOne
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Re: Separating fact from fiction

Postby OnlyOne » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:04 am

Hello Vivien
Please look at the display before you.

Now, could you tell me where you are looking at it FROM?

The best I can describe this as is a location called 'here', which is always the same place no matter what is seen.

WHAT is there? Is there a ‘me’ in that direction? What do you find there?

When attention is turned backwards, there's absolutely nothing as an entity which is found in direct experience. Nothing.

The everyday assumption is that there are:

1. Seer
2. Seeing
3. Seen

Can you find all three? How many are actually there?

Seer: There is no seer at all.

Seeing: As I investigated this, the word started to become meaningless. There is no actual experience of eyes here with which to see. There is what is seen which is a choiceless appearance. There doesn't seem to be any seeing happening as an activity. This is curious.

Seen: What is seen is here. This seems to be the only thing which is actually here.

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Vivien
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Re: Separating fact from fiction

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:22 am

Hi OnlyOne,
Seeing: As I investigated this, the word started to become meaningless. There is no actual experience of eyes here with which to see. There is what is seen which is a choiceless appearance. There doesn't seem to be any seeing happening as an activity. This is curious.
Yes.
Seen: What is seen is here. This seems to be the only thing which is actually here.
Yes, there is only the seen.

But where is ‘here’?
Can ‘here’ as such be felt, touched, heard, seen, tasted, smelled?

The best I can describe this as is a location called 'here', which is always the same place no matter what is seen.
In everyday language we think that ‘here’ is an actual location. But look at this a bit closely.

Does this stand up to the scrutiny when experience is looked at without concepts?
Is there a REAL experience of ‘here’? Or is this just another concept?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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OnlyOne
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Re: Separating fact from fiction

Postby OnlyOne » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:34 pm

Hi Vivien,

It's hard to provide answers without using concepts and the limitations of language but I will do my best.

But where is ‘here’?

I used the word 'here' not to describe a specific location in relation to another location but rather where everything appears 'into' if that makes sense.

Can ‘here’ as such be felt, touched, heard, seen, tasted, smelled?

No, there's nothing about 'here' which has any of those properties.

In everyday language we think that ‘here’ is an actual location. But look at this a bit closely.

Does this stand up to the scrutiny when experience is looked at without concepts?

When I go for a walk, there is the movement of what is seen and the appearance of sensations, tastes and smells and sounds but there is no 'me' which is moving.

Is there a REAL experience of ‘here’? Or is this just another concept?

'Here' is just a concept.

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OnlyOne
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Re: Separating fact from fiction

Postby OnlyOne » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:40 pm

Hi Vivien,

The limitations of language are apparent with the word 'into' - that suggests some sort of container with defined boundaries - there are no boundaries in actual experience. There are just appearances.

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Vivien
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Re: Separating fact from fiction

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:33 am

Hi OnlyOne,
I used the word 'here' not to describe a specific location in relation to another location but rather where everything appears 'into' if that makes sense.
The limitations of language are apparent with the word 'into' - that suggests some sort of container with defined boundaries - there are no boundaries in actual experience. There are just appearances.
It’s not just about boundaries, but about separation.

Is there anything that experience appear IN or TO?

Are there two things there? ‘here’ + experience?

Is there a place or location, either in space or time, where experience appearing?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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OnlyOne
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Re: Separating fact from fiction

Postby OnlyOne » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:55 pm

Hello Vivien,

Is there anything that experience appear IN or TO?

There's nothing experience appears to.
There's nothing that experience appears in - there's just experience.

Are there two things there? ‘here’ + experience?

Looking at this more closely, 'here' doesn't exist in direct experience. I can't find/see 'here'. There's just experience and only experience.

Is there a place or location, either in space or time, where experience appearing?

There's no such thing or place as here, there or anywhere in direct experience.

The same goes for time.

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Vivien
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Re: Separating fact from fiction

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:48 pm

Hi OnlyOne,

Tell me what's left of OnlyOne. When checking reality, does OnlyOne still exist?
And if so, can you tell me, what's left of it or how and when it appears?
Is there a OnlyOne to cross the gateless gate?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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OnlyOne
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Re: Separating fact from fiction

Postby OnlyOne » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:05 pm

Hello Vivien,

Tell me what's left of OnlyOne. When checking reality, does OnlyOne still exist?

OnlyOne is an idea, a mental suggestion which isn't there in reality (actual experience).

And if so, can you tell me, what's left of it or how and when it appears?

There is some residue which is due to a sense that there is still work to be done. Then there is noticing that fabrication - there is nothing which is doing anything. There is also noticing that thought content has nothing to do with what is here. This noticing is becoming easier and easier.

Mornings have provided the opportunity to see the pull of the story in action with sensations and thought/story arising on awaking. Each morning, there is a clearer noticing that there is nothing which can be done about any of it and that there is just the appearance of thoughts and sensations.

s there a OnlyOne to cross the gateless gate?

I can see that there is no OnlyOne to cross the gateless gate and that the gate is a fabrication. The illusionary gate still persists due to the above.

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Vivien
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Re: Separating fact from fiction

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:10 am

Hi OnlyOne,
I can see that there is no OnlyOne to cross the gateless gate and that the gate is a fabrication. The illusionary gate still persists due to the above.
Sorry but for your above comment it’s not clear for me why the illusionary gate persists. Could you please tell more?

What is it that is missing? What do you expect to happen, but it haven’t happened yet?


Please write examples from your daily life, something we can work with.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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