I don't know

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Iana
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Re: I don't know

Postby Iana » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:29 pm

The body is not experiencing, and the body cannot be experienced, a label can't be experienced, the seeing is experiencing itself, the sound experiencing itself, the senses experiencing themself. This is a conclusion, a thought.
By "go blank" you meen don't think? Because i can't ...

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Matthew
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Re: I don't know

Postby Matthew » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:19 pm

You shall not imagine how a child would experience.
You shall yourself go into "child mode" :-)
Look at things as if you knew nothing about them. No background of intellectual and especially spiritual knowledge.
Drop it right here.
Drop it all.
Start over.
You can pick up what you desire afterwards again. If you wish to.
Take your time if you need it.



If the soul is to know God it must forget itself and lose itself, for as long as it contemplates self, it cannot contemplate God. When it has lost itself and everything in God, it finds itself again in God when it attains to the knowledge of Him, and it finds also everything which it had abandoned complete in God.
-Meister Eckhart


i can't get it how the body is experienced ?
Sit or lay down and relax. Relax.
Can you attend to sensation only?
Thought might tell this and that. It might tell about yesteday, about tomorrow. It might also tell stories about a body, subtely labelling sensation.
Can you ignore that for five minutes and be calm with sensation only?

While attending to pure sensation, investigate:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a specific shape or form?
Is there an inside or an outside?
How many toes do you have?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Iana
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Re: I don't know

Postby Iana » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:47 pm

You shall yourself go into "child mode" :-)
Ok , i will do it
Can it be known how tall the body is?
No, i can't tell that
Does the body have a specific shape or form?
No shape, no form
Is there an inside or an outside?
Struggled a little bit with this one, but i repeteated more times the exercise, and there is no inside or outside
How many toes do you have?
I don't know, i can't say

I have done this exercise before, but it wasn't so effective,lets say. I noticed when you tell me how to do it, or what to do, i do it more easily, but when i was doing them alone,it was like the thoughts "were trying to go against" what i was trying to do))) hope you understand what i mean))

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Matthew
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Re: I don't know

Postby Matthew » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:24 pm

thoughts "were trying to go against"
Yeah that's what they do.
Somehow thought wants to keep these illusions going.
It is foremost a question of relaxation and calm continuous attention.
And also: Joy!
Enjoy doing these excercises. Have fun with them!



Let's go a little bit deeper.
You first pose these questions again to go into looking mode:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a specific shape or form?
Is there an inside or an outside?
How many toes do you have?
Have a fresh look at them while lying down and relaxing.
Go deep into this mode of experience. Very very deep.
Resistance can come up when it gets really deep.
If it does, go even deeper!
It can feel like you're losing yourself. But that's what we're here for, right? :o)
Nothing to be afraid of. You're gonna be alright!


Once the above questions are again perfectly clear, pose these new questions.
In the state of only attending to sensation and ignoring thought-fantasy-blabla:

Does sensation have a specific location?
Are there multiple separate sensations?


This for now.
Next time we're going to go extremely deep. Like bottom deep.
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Iana
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Re: I don't know

Postby Iana » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:27 am

Repeated the exercise multiple times. But only once i could relax)) and got to a point i felt like melting, it was no body, no hight, no shape, no form, no inside, no outside, no toes, no location of the sensation, no multiple separate sensations, it was only sensation. Tryed it more times to repeat it to be sure of that, but every time i do it ,mental images of the body and labels of parts of the body appear, thoughts that i can't do it and I'm geting frustrated ( on thoughts, on thoughts about thoughts and so on

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Matthew
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Re: I don't know

Postby Matthew » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:46 pm

Look at thought like it's a radio playing while you're doing this excercise. (Or at all times really)
There are many random voices coming from a radio with random content, but while you're doing the excercise, you're simply not interested in the broadcast.
It just happens alongside the excercise and it does not have the power to interrupt or interfere.
It's just random blah blah.

and got to a point i felt like melting
Maybe don't take the melting as the goal of the excercise.
The melting happens by itself when you're looking properly.
That should be the goal of the excercise. To look properly.

How to do that?

Simply attend to raw sensation continously while posing the old questions:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a specific shape or form?
Is there an inside or an outside?
How many toes do you have?
Does sensation have a specific location?
Are there multiple separate sensations?
If it really doesn't work, no problem!
Just come back here and we find another route for now. There are so many. No worries!

If it works,
you can investigate this one next:

Bring up an "emotion".
Anger is a good one here.
Does raw sensation tell anything about anger?
Does raw sensation have anything to do with anger?

Is there a "me" to be found amongst sensation?
Does raw sensation tell anything about "I", "me", "mine", or "self"?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Iana
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Re: I don't know

Postby Iana » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:21 pm

Sorry(( can we try something else...
But i want to say that these days doing so many time the exercise, during the day i was noticing very easy different sensations, that before i wasn't aware of them, for example getting angry on my daughter, a thought appeared about: she must be quiet because she will wake up the baby, i noticed the clenched jaw. And noticed this pattern: thought -emotion- sensation. And one more thing , i was trying to locate two sensations, and its impossible to focus on more sensations in the same time, i don't know how to explain it, the focus moves so fast, and its not only about sensations, but everything, sound, sensation, thought, image, where the focus go that is, and if try to focus more on one thing, i can't, because "i" can't control it.

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Matthew
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Re: I don't know

Postby Matthew » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:49 pm

and if try to focus more on one thing, i can't, because "i" can't control it.
Good!

Of course "I" can't control it.
It's just a letter.
It can control as many things as "O", "A", or "U" can. None!
You see?

Compare the letters "I", "O", "A", and "U".
Say them loudly many times. Look directly at them and investigate.
Is there anything special about the letter "I" compared to the other ones?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Iana
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Re: I don't know

Postby Iana » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:06 pm

Compare the letters "I", "O", "A", and "U".
Say them loudly many times. Look directly at them and investigate.
Is there anything special about the letter "I" compared to the other ones?
Saying them loudly , looking directly, its nothing special about letter "I" , just a sound and a sensation of the vocal cords and lips, tongue, just the same like the other letters.

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Matthew
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Re: I don't know

Postby Matthew » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:53 pm

Very good!

Bring up the thought "I" again in the same way.
Say it loudly or as thought.

When it is right there, observe it like a hawk:

Does "I" have a story?
Can "I" think?
Does "I" have any problems?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Iana
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Re: I don't know

Postby Iana » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:19 pm

Does "I" have a story?
Can "I" think?
Does "I" have any problems?
"I" is only a thought and can't have a story, can't think, can't have problems.

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Matthew
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Re: I don't know

Postby Matthew » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:09 pm

Well, what are the implications of this?
Do problems belong to anyone or anything?

Feel free to write more!
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Iana
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Re: I don't know

Postby Iana » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:01 am

All thoughts just appear and disappear , the content of thoughts can be stories and problems, then why do i still belive them? Why do i think the thoughts are still mine? If there is no l? But the thought that i still belive them, that they are mine are thoughts too...
There is no i, me, mine; its like me with a thought trying to convince myself that there is no me ( there is no "me" trying and no "myself" to convince, just another thought)
If there is no I, who then hear the thoughts, hear the sounds, sees , feels? Because all this are real. All this just happens, but something is aware of them, who or what is this something? ( another thought trying do understand something)
Confused about thoughts a little bit, are all the thoughts not true? They appear and disappear, can't control them, are good and bad, can't control them, how about decision? I did the exercises with decision, thoughts of the decision just appear, why do i belive that thought? Is that me that believes that thought?if there is no i, me. the thought with the decision that i will go to the shop today at 2 o'clock appear, then this is what i do. If there is no i, this is not me doing all this... there is no me...
Confused here, the conection between the thought decision and the happening, if a thought appeared about writing this, and the writing is happening, why is this happening, if the thought is a lie?
Or the thoughts happen, doing happens, but there is no me, no one to whom happens, it just happens... Why do i still belive it happens to me? can't faind a me, just to letters, where is me? Me just a thought exacly like i.

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Matthew
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Re: I don't know

Postby Matthew » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:44 am

Yeah thoughts go crazy during this time.
They go around in circles.
The arguing again and again collides with itself.
Try to watch this play with amusement.
That's what it's intended for anyway.
It'll soon be over.

If there is no I, who then hear the thoughts, hear the sounds, sees , feels?
The "I" or the subject is only assumed in language.

Is an "I" needed for the heart to beat?
Is an "I" needed for a tree to grow?
Is an "I" needed for hearing and seeing to happen?

Please look outside the window. Now.
Where is "I" in seeing?

Listen to some music.
Where is "I" in hearing?

are all the thoughts not true?
They are true in the sense that they appear. It's undeniable. They appear in the same undeniable way as the seen and the heard appears.
What is not true, however, is their content. Their content is a story. A story about "me", "others", "a world" and so on.
(It's not a LIE per se. Like you wouldn't call a fantasy book a LIE. It's just what it is. A nice little fantasy story.)
Thought tells a story about the "me" person alongside experience, always in the present moment. It narrates on what is apparently happening in the present moment.
Right now thought is telling a story about a person called "me", that is very confused, sitting in front of a computer and is trying to understand all of this.
You see?

why do i belive that thought?
What makes a thought appear as true?


the thought with the decision that i will go to the shop today at 2 o'clock appear, then this is what i do.
if a thought appeared about writing this, and the writing is happening, why is this happening, if the thought is a lie?
It only appears that way!
These things would happen with or without thought narrating on them.
You can think about a decision as much as you want. You can think one day, two days, three months or not at all.
The outcome will be the same.
We'll revisit that one later if needed.


Take your time for reading, looking and answering.
Please answer all blue questions individually.
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Iana
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Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:24 pm

Re: I don't know

Postby Iana » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:30 pm

Please look outside the window. Now.
Where is "I" in seeing?
There is no "I"
Listen to some music.
Where is "I" in hearing?
There is no "I"
Ignoring the "radio", seeing and hearing just happen
why do i belive that thought?
What makes a thought appear as true?
The conection between the content of the thought and what is happening,
It narrates on what is apparently happening in the present moment.
ahaa apparently , because lets say a thought appear " it's windy ", but in direct experince it's only sensation, seeing movement and sound.


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