Awakening

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Skygazer74
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Re: Awakening

Postby Skygazer74 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:45 am

Hi Geoff,

Well at this stage it is really down to you - do you feel like you are ready for the final questions?
There was a funny response that arose in answer to your question about guides verifying if there the illusion has been seen through, "Oh gee, I hope I pass!). There it is!! The irony of a selfing response to whether the illusion has been seen through is too much!
The habits of thought might not immediately completely change - there is a lot of conditioning, and language and tradition insist we refer to ourselves as selves.
But what you have been pointing me to since day one is that this is simply not true in direct experience. It's only the conditioned mind. I'm beginning to see this. I wouldn't say im abiding in this understanding yet. Yesterday it was shocking to think about how many waking hours of thougth and emotion that have arose in around something that never actually existed. (a me!) Then five minutes later identification is in full effect. One thing is for sure. The identification is thinning!
I know you mentioned you don't feel like you are abiding in the understanding yet - how do you feel now after the weekend? It is absurd isn't it, once you see it, it can feel like the most grotesque misunderstanding!
I agree there has been a shift. (Gratitude Arising!) There is some seeing through of the illusion. I think it's beginning to unfold.
I would say there is a shift occurring. Something is shifting. More moments of seeing through the illusion.
Then five minutes later identification is in full effect. One thing is for sure. The identification is thinning!
So reading the first two it feels like we should ask the final questions and then the last one suggests there may still be some doubt. It is fine if there is, better to be honest and really look at that - by identification I assume you mean a thought arises which appears to identify in some way?

Once it is clear that there is only ever identification or selfing in a thought, then it will be known as just a thought. I find that if I am abiding in spacious awareness, a thought is less likely to ruffle that awareness, because it is free to arise and pass without there being someone to grab onto it and follow it and dissect it as if it was important. As you have seen, thoughts are not controllable, they cannot be chosen, and there is no entity to choose them. They arise and pass. The only thing which makes us think that they are us is a kind of assumption that we are our thoughts, or we are that voice. Then it might be a helpful phase to identify with awareness instead, or the presence, or witness, but of course nothing can be found in that either which we can call self. So thinking, awareness, all occur, and free from defining or being defined as self. This means that our thoughts are less bothersome, because they are no longer anything to do with us, so do not have to define or limit 'us!'

For sure, after the gate, there is still a process and an unfolding, but to learn to dwell in that pure awareness, or clarity, and know that all that ever makes any moment dissatisfactory is nothing but a thought, seems to be the key.

Are you clear about thought and awareness (DE) - and how thought creates the illusions and sufferings that cannot be found in awareness?

Are you clear that neither contain a self?


Either way, there is a shift, and this is such a blessing!

Best wishes,

Nic

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Geoff
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Re: Awakening

Postby Geoff » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:12 am

Hi NIc,

Thanks for your reply. It's not that I have doubts. it's that I would like to see this insight generalize a bit. Why dont' we give it a week and see?

I was reflecting a bit on what I would answer if you asked me what the separate self is. The first thing that came to me is that is a misunderstanding, a misinterpretation of what is actually happening. What is actually happening awaring, experiencing. Actions being taken without a chooser or owner of these actions. What is being misinterpreted? Thought and sensation as anything more than that frankly. A mirage is simply colors being misinterpreted as water. Doesn't mean it doesn't appear like water, but every step taken towards the mirage it appears one step further away. (It's interested to consider for a moment how/when this misunderstanding began in the human experience and then became part of the conditioning. From that perspective LU is an attempt to undue thousands or years of conditioning. Wow)

I know you mentioned you don't feel like you are abiding in the understanding yet - how do you feel now after the weekend? It is absurd isn't it, once you see it, it can feel like the most grotesque misunderstanding!
I feel the same, and yes it's quite absurd, and humbling as it's groundhog day over here!
by identification I assume you mean a thought arises which appears to identify in some way?
Exactly - this can be seen but often it takes a moment to look and see the misunderstanding once again. My gut tells me it would be of great benefit it I did this many times a day.

The only thing which makes us think that they are us is a kind of assumption that we are our thoughts, or we are that voic
e
Well said! If we used "thoughts as less bothersome because they no longer have anything to do with us" as an indicator, I think there is more seeing (or unseeing) to be done. There is a sense that "thought/feeling" is still to sticky and frequent.

I will say that both my parents are now in the hospital and on opposite sides of the country so there is a lot going on. Their bodies are in the final stages. I vacillate in between seeing that the body/brain is coming to an end and my parents are dying.
Whereas I always believed that they more than a body/mind now it used to be a thought or something i would tell myself and now it's more of an actual awareness at times.

Are you clear about thought and awareness (DE) - and how thought creates the illusions and sufferings that cannot be found in awareness?

Are you clear that neither contain a self?
I"m clear when I look Nic, but I would say that it takes some looking. When I do look and this is seen there is a opening sensation, a relaxing of tension. I want to be REALLY Honest here. There are still many times when it initially doesn't appear this way. Example - someone recently was quite hurt by an email I sent and the body/mind had quite and intense reaction. Initially if felt like "I" had quite an emotional reaction until I looked and saw there was simply thinking, sensations, and more thinking in the form of resistance. Nothing to do in terms of needing protection. I have also observed that when I"m with people the constant presence of awareness gets ignored and attention goes to the content of thought and feeling. There are automatic reactions. Etc. I' know I"m writing a lot but I want to give you the full picture.

Cheers Brother!
Geoff

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Geoff
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Re: Awakening

Postby Geoff » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:02 pm

HI Nic,
You around? If so, please hit me back when you have a moment.
Thanks
Geoff

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Skygazer74
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Re: Awakening

Postby Skygazer74 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:14 pm

Hi Geoff,

Thank you for these comments, and yes it sounds like a plan to let things settle and see what unfolds, especially considering your situation. I am very sorry to hear about your parents and wish you well in coping with that. Of course there can still be grief without the griever and stress without the stressor or stressee, and reactions and distractions can still arise. I wouldn't let these things convince you that there is still a self. As you are doing, when this happens, look and see that there is no I, and often nothing 'wrong' with the situation except a thought, even if it is painful and difficult. DE is always there in our experience, ready for us to remember.

The most important thing for this enquiry is that the self is seen to be an illusion, and whilst this is very significant and can profoundly affect life, I see it as the beginning of the awakening process rather than the end. The most important thing perhaps for awakening is that the experience of clear awareness is found, and through LU we learn we can shift Into that from all the illusions and constructions of thought. I can recommend some books and forums for further information later :)

I look forward to your observations,

Best wishes,

Nic

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Geoff
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Re: Awakening

Postby Geoff » Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:41 am

HI Nic,
Thanks for your wishes my friend. i am more than happy to continue our dialogue as this process unfolds with my parents.
Life continues to be lifing, and i's all part of it. i do appreciate your guidance on see that nothing is wrong, outside of thought. This is something that needs to be looked at again and again.

What I actually meant was why don't we continue with the looking and dialogue for the next week or so and see what happens. Are you comfortable with this?

Thanks,
Geoff

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Skygazer74
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Re: Awakening

Postby Skygazer74 » Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:36 pm

Hi Geoff,
Thanks for your wishes my friend. i am more than happy to continue our dialogue as this process unfolds with my parents.
Life continues to be lifing, and i's all part of it. i do appreciate your guidance on see that nothing is wrong, outside of thought. This is something that needs to be looked at again and again.

What I actually meant was why don't we continue with the looking and dialogue for the next week or so and see what happens. Are you comfortable with this?
Well it is a bit unusual but I have no problem with it, especially since it is a difficult period for you. There aren't necessarily endless new exercises to do, rather we can simply keep looking into experience for a time.

Maybe if you send me reports about what is happening, and if there are sill traces of 'selfing' arising we can look at those. What's been happening this weekend?

Best wishes,

Nic

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Geoff
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Re: Awakening

Postby Geoff » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:04 am

HI Nic,

While I very much appreciate your willingness, but based on your reply I think it might be best to send me the finalquestions.
You are busy and there are others waiting for guidance.


I look forward to the questions and Thank you again or all of your guidance!!

Geoff

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Skygazer74
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Re: Awakening

Postby Skygazer74 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:44 am

Hi Geoff,

Thank you for considering other people needing guidance, but this is your call. I am happy to continue for as long as it takes for you to feel certain about this. So if you do wish to take some time before answering these, or to simply continue looking I am more than happy to accommodate that.

Anyway, if you do wish to try these, here they are:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

Best wishes,

Nic

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Geoff
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Re: Awakening

Postby Geoff » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:03 pm

HI Nic,
Answers below.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

There is not, never was, and never will be a self, me or I any any shape or form. It's just a concept, a belief, no more, no less.

The belief in a separate self is a misunderstanding, a misinterpretation of what is actually happening the flow of experiencing The belief in a separate self begins not long after birth through conditioning. The parents innocently condition children to believe this concept of an "I", or me, which has agency, chooses, and posseses. The me is conceptualized as a person residing in a body. This misunderstanding reflected in every aspect of our culture, and of course the language which is quite dualist. ( At least in English every object must have a subject). The false concept of "Mine" or "My" and "yours" become a pervasive part of a child and experience is constantly interpreted through a dualistic lens. While in reality actions are being simply taken, thought comes after the fact as says "I chose this", "I did this", "I made this happen". Bottom line the separate self, is a concept, a belief, and a story that gets created in moment.


Further We are taught as children not only that we are individual separate entity, but also that the content thought is the only way to know experience. There is no pointing by parents to the child to look directly at experience, to see thought simply as a continues flow of containers of content, rather children are taught to faithfully trust the content of thought as the arbiter of experience, when in reality thought can only ever draw a painting of experience.

The misinterpretation (by the content of thought) of often accompanying arising sensations as objects (instead of simply energy contracting, opening, or moving) further perpetuates this false belief in a separate, vulnerable, self. Whereas in reality these sensations are energy contracting, opening, and moving, thought relates to these sensations as "emotions" and often these "emotions" are misinterpreted by thought as threat. Suddenly these sensations "mean something about a me", instead of simply being arising sensations. Hence the false concept of the separate self is perpetuated.


What is actually happening awaring, experiencing. Actions being taken without a chooser or owner of these actions. What is being misinterpreted? Thought and sensation as anything more than that frankly. At first Awareness appeared an object, a "witnessing presence" and there was identification with "awareness", but now it is seen that awareness is not an object, it's more like "awaring" or experiencing. There is a knowing of experience but not a knower of experience. There is experiencing, but not an experiencer. The knowing of experience is inseparable from experience, and thinking, hearing, sensing, seeing, are inseparable. Experiencing is seamless, boundless.



3. Seeing this there is a sensation of openness, more of a sense of peace with all experience. To be clear, identification with thought still happens quite frequently, but there is an awareness of what is happening. This is indeed a beginning. There is much more to be seen and uncovered. So much is different from when i first started this process. There are times when there is no longer even a sense that there is an inside. Thought, sensations, seeing, hearing, arise and are experienced openly. It is quite wonderful. At this point happens more often while taking a walk in nature. There have been times when I have been brought to me knees and wept at the sheer ISness and Divinity of it all. Writing this tears well up again. Here words must stop as there is no way i can describe the experience. Often there is a sense of wondering, what action or decision is going to be taken next. It's like a discovery, or a show. I could go on an on about this.

4. There were several points along the way. Understanding how through conditioning and language thought was assuming that there was a subject to every object. (if something is seen- there must be a seer). Seeing this popped something. The overwhelming truth of direct experience, again and again.


5. Decision, free will, intention, choice- These are different words for the same false assumption- that there is an agent who has agency. Actions are taken, without a doer. Free will is a concept and no concept is true. One could say that a "choice" is made but that is not accurate. There was three options and one option was taken is more accurate. There is no one to have an intention, though there might be a thought. There is not a me to be responsible for actions. Simple examples are waking, up, getting out of the shower, scratching an itch. There is no one to decide to get out of bed, but it happens, to get out of the shower but it happens, etc. Typing these words happens, words are "choosen" without a chooser.

6. There is deep gratitude and a sense that this is truly only the beginning, I want to thank Nic for his guidance. It's interesting, since childhood i have been drawn to acts of selflessness, without knowing why. Actions taken without any self interest whatsoever. Now it's understood that selflessness was actually a glimpse into reality. There never was a self! This is the primary truth, and the illusion of the conditioned mind can only veil this truth so much and for so long. Liberation Unleashed is expression of this same selflessness. I would love to be trained as a guide.

Lastly, I write these answers as my mother (sever alzheimers) is practically on her deathbed, and my father (Lew Body dementia) is close to hospice as well. Both have been in the hospital this week and their bodies could easily cease to function in days. This decline has been quite sudden. While I am having every human experience of sadness, apprehension, and the like, there is also a quiet knowing and acceptance that is beginning to abide. There will likely be both for sometime and there is acceptance of that as well.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.

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Skygazer74
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Re: Awakening

Postby Skygazer74 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:23 am

Hi Geoff,

Congratulations brother - other guides have confirmed from your answers that you are through the gate! Thank you for your dedication and persistence, and your lawyer-like questioning which really made me think! It has been a privilege to guide you.

It is an interesting time for you to 'gate,' with all that is going on, I wish you all the best, and you are very welcome to stay in touch either through here or if you like we can connect on Facebook. Maybe it is a perfect time to gate, a blessing to help you cope and support your family.

You should be receiving a message from the site with information about what to do now, and advice about integration. It is lovely that you have a desire to guide, and there should be advice about this in the letter. It may be advisable to just let it all settle and integrate for a period, but this is up to you.

Best wishes,

Nic

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Geoff
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Re: Awakening

Postby Geoff » Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:51 pm

Dear Nic,
Than you. It was a privilege to have you as a guide- Truly. I appreciate the creation and concept of the marker "crossing the gate", but I appreciate even more how lightly a concept like this needs to be held. Crossing the gateless?

Let's definitely connect on facebook if that's ok. Let me know best way to find you.

Going through this with my parents is interesting and it's hard. Seeing their bodies and minds break down from week to week ...it's a reminder both of how the mind so desperately wants to something definite and "stable" to cling to in order to be safe and protected, and while in DE it's known things are constantly changing. In the story of Geoff these are MY parents. It will be MY loss, etc. It's all personalized. There are many strong sensations attached to these stories. IN DE these can be seen as natural arising thoughts and feelings, albiet quite intense. Beyond these thoughts and feelings there is the flow of life in all of it's mystical and magical beauty. Things are constantly changing, taking form, growing and then decaying, only to take take form again. There is the knowing of both kinds of experience. (Sorry- I'm riffing a little here and just going with it!)

One question- will the email from the site come from the same Admin email address? Often these messages go into my spam so I''ll be on the lookout if it's from different email.

Thanks again Nic, and again. I look forward to being in touch.

With Love and appreciation,
Geoff

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Geoff
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Re: Awakening

Postby Geoff » Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:58 am

Hi Nic,

Hope you are great. I haven't yet received a message from the LU site on follow up/integration.

You mind sending the appropriate link?

Thanks Brother!

Geoff

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Skygazer74
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Re: Awakening

Postby Skygazer74 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:47 am

Hi Geoff,

I believe they sent you a private message, have you checked your messages?

Hope things are going ok

Nic

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Geoff
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Re: Awakening

Postby Geoff » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:10 pm

HI Brother,
Thanks! I didn't realize there was a private message function.

I just sent you a private message with a couple of questions and look forward to your feedback.

Blessings,
Geoff


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