The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:04 pm

I was looking with a gentle ease, there seemed to be a lot of energetic activity in the brain. I ended up with a small headache.
What is energetic activity in DE?
Energetic activity was a way to describe small intense vibrations inside my head. I used the word brain because of the location.
So with DE? It's sensations & thoughts
What is brain in DE?
A location, like if I had a pain in my knee. I would experience sensation & to describe its location, I would say knee.
Can one know in DE that brain exists and can one be sure about what it does?
No.
I think I’m starting to get what you are asking.
I have been attaching to the label of brain
This has opened up something.
I’ve been looking with DE throughout the day at my thoughts with this new perspective
The ‘me’ is a cloud in my head - densely entwined thoughts that seem to be unravelling
How is it known that thoughts are in the head.
Same as above
Is there a cloud or merely lots and lots of thoughts pointing to a separate self?
I’ll report more on this tomorrow

Much love

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:51 pm

You are on a good track. :-)
Looking forward to what you come up with tomorrow.

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:41 pm

It seems to me that I just need to keep at it. I feel like I’m at a point where I need to carry on the investigation.

Using DE to experience thoughts

I don't have all the questions to ask that I used to.

I don’t have too much else to report at this point.

But I am keeping at it!

I’ll report back tomorrow

Much love

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:15 pm

Wonderful, I spent a long and wonderful day in the mountains, but will have time in the morning tomorrow.
We will move on with another exercise.

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:29 pm

Your trip up the mountain sounds lovely. I’m pleased you sound happy.

I’ve been trying to see where thoughts appear from. They just seem to appear, from nowhere.

Much love

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:01 am

I’ve been trying to see where thoughts appear from. They just seem to appear, from nowhere.
Yes, thougths just appear.

Wherever you are sitting right now, look for an object to use. Don’t pick up the object or turn it around, only look at what can be seen without touching it or turning it.

Have one?

Now look at it and describe what you see. Give yourself a bit of time with it. Just look, nothing else.

Done?

Now describe the back side of the object.
How is it known what the back side looks like?
What tells what it looks like?
How can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is 3D?
Can this be known in direct experience?
Can an object be known at all?

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:27 pm

What an interesting exercise!

I see lights & shades giving the appearance of depth
But I cannot be certain
I see a casting shadow
I see colours
I see reflection
Now describe the back side of the object.
How is it known what the back side looks like?

I have to assume.
If I looked at the back side, I might be surprised. It might not meet my expectations,

I’m building my world with thought
So much!
How can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is 3D?
I see lights & shades giving the appearance of depth
But I cannot be certain
A 2D Drawing could do the same
Can this be known in direct experience?
I feel that if I can pick it up & touch it then yes. But this is probably wrong! Lol
Can an object be known at all?
Great question
I don’t know
What is known? I don't know what it means to know.

Much Love

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:43 pm

I see lights & shades giving the appearance of depth
But I cannot be certain
I see a casting shadow
Aren't lights, shades, shadows and reflections label?
Can one see a label?
Seen is colour and form, all other labels just add distinctions but don't give any new input.
I have to assume.
If I looked at the back side, I might be surprised. It might not meet my expectations,
I’m building my world with thought
So much!
In DE you don't have any information by seeing about the backside, so yes, thoughts are guessing, making assumptions.
And yes, they do it a lot. And yes, it builds up a world..

Observe thoughts the next days, what relates to something in DE and what is mere assumption, guesswork.
And are the assumptions, the guesses always helpful?
I see lights & shades giving the appearance of depth
But I cannot be certain
A 2D Drawing could do the same
It can't be known what the back looks like and if the object is 3D, it could be 2D, yes.
Can this be known in direct experience?
I feel that if I can pick it up & touch it then yes. But this is probably wrong! Lol
If you touch it, well there will be other assumptions appearing....
Can an object be known at all?
Great question
I don’t know
What is known? I don't know what it means to know.
For our purpose here Known refers to direct experience.
So can it be known? Without content of thoughts? Or is there merely seeing of something?

You are doing good work!
Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:18 pm

I see lights & shades giving the appearance of depth
But I cannot be certain
I see a casting shadow
Aren't lights, shades, shadows and reflections label?
Can one see a label?
Seen is colour and form, all other labels just add distinctions but don't give any new input.
I’m a bit confused here.

Is it like a baby looking out to the world with no vocabulary?

But even with no labels there must still be distinction?

Isn’t there still pain & pleasure in DE? Smooth & hard. Hungry? Even with no words, my direct experience is experiencing some distinctions?
I cannot see a label, but I can feel hot & cold. I can see light & dark.
A direct experience of sensations with burning fire would automatically make a distinction.
Observe thoughts the next days, what relates to something in DE and what is mere assumption, guesswork.
And are the assumptions, the guesses always helpful?
Thoughts race off to tell me what other people are thinking - assumption
Not helpful
Thoughts, I need to put my food in the microwave so it will be warm when I have my break.
Helpful
Thoughts drift off towards relationships, imagination, not that helpful

Sensations in the body, - creates thoughts & assumptions that are not helpful.

I pick up a pen. I make assumptions,. It’s solid, I cannot eat it. It has a value, it needs to be disposed of properly when finished, it’s smooth, it has a lid, it will write when I take the lid off.

I notice that I become a little sad (only a little!)
I have emotional sadness, no thoughts seem to be explaining this feeling.
My assumption is the label, it’s sadness, but is it really sadness? There are a number of internal sensations & the collection of many sensations is grouped into a recognisable feeling & I call this sadness.

This reminds me of vipassana, watching sensations without labels.

For our purpose here Known refers to direct experience.
So can it be known? Without content of thoughts? Or is there merely seeing of something?
I know is that there is light & dark but I don’t know what light & dark is or where it comes from.
Colours - I can see colours but I don't know what they are
Sensations - I experience sensations - hunger, it drives action to eat but I don't REALLY know that it’s hunger
I eat something nice, I experience the sensation of taste. It is very different depending on what I eat, I eat fruit & it is a sensation, but then if I were to eat something rancid, it is also a sensation but very different.
How can I NOT make a distinction between the taste sensation of sweet fruit & something horrible & bitter?

I breathe in. I feel my lungs expand. But of course I don't know I have lungs.
I have to experience before the thought. Experience before the label.


You are doing good work!
Thank you for your encouragement
Much appreciated

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:05 pm

Is it like a baby looking out to the world with no vocabulary?
Yes, exactly, this is direct looking. Everthing else are labels, really each and every word you can use.
As you probably might have guessed colour, smell, taste, sound and physical sensation are labels, too. This is how far we can break experience down if we still want to use words and it sure helps with the work here in this forum.

It is quite good to have a look at labels, since many labels aren't only words made of letters but a whole concept in one word.
Think of light. Is it just a word. Can you think the word light without thinking much more, like perhaps, good, warm ect?
Take this in and find other words which are concepts, you will be astonished.
Can any word be thought without maybe a picture, an idea, an imagined taste, smell, vision?
Apple? Can you only think apple.

Rember we are talking non duality here, there is no separation AT ALL. We tackle the first illusion of all illusions here, the illusion of self - with self being something quite different than what we learned to believe.
But even with no labels there must still be distinction?
Are there really distinctions? Like between light and dark or good and bad?
In DE or only in thoughts?
Who or what is there to make it?
Isn’t there still pain & pleasure in DE? Smooth & hard. Hungry?
Strictly spoken, and for the sake of pointing we are very strict here, none of what you mention exist in DE. All three are broken down to sensation.
Does a sensation know that it is good or bad? Welcomed or not?
Next time something happens which is labeld "pain", or you can pinch yourself lightly! right now - stretch your senses.
Is 'pain' found anywhere else than in thought?
Or is there simply only a sensation?
Do you find the word 'pain' in the sensation?
Or do you only find it as content of a thought? Followed by many more thoughts, starting to tell a story.
Thoughts race off to tell me what other people are thinking - assumption
Not helpful
Thoughts, I need to put my food in the microwave so it will be warm when I have my break.
Helpful
Thoughts drift off towards relationships, imagination, not that helpful
Good, you've seen assumptions appear in lightspeed. Some are helpful, some are mere comments which do nothing at all, influence nothing at all.
I notice that I become a little sad (only a little!)
I have emotional sadness, no thoughts seem to be explaining this feeling.
My assumption is the label, it’s sadness, but is it really sadness? There are a number of internal sensations & the collection of many sensations is grouped into a recognisable feeling & I call this sadness.
Good, you realized you can never be quite sure if that what thought offers as an explantion is true.
You might find that some offers are mere guesswork and not even good one....
I have to experience before the thought. Experience before the label
Beautiful. Experience happens, thought follows with the whole enchilada. ;-)

So for right now be strict in looking what is DE or not. This is very helpful on the way. The better you understand how thoughts build up the story of the self - the easier all further steps will be for you.

Let this all sink in and share what you find.

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:27 pm

It is quite good to have a look at labels, since many labels aren't only words made of letters but a whole concept in one word.
Think of light. Is it just a word. Can you think the word light without thinking much more, like perhaps, good, warm ect?
Take this in and find other words which are concepts, you will be astonished.
Can any word be thought without maybe a picture, an idea, an imagined taste, smell, vision?
Apple? Can you only think apple.

Apple, green freshness, healthy sweetness, natural

Other words hiding as concepts I explored - some more obvious to me than others at first.
Fun, pleasure
Boredom
Distraction
Closed
Sensitive
Argue
Fine, good
Sweet
Feel
Bus
Stadium
Car
I’m starting to think that EVERY word/label is a concept!
Are there really distinctions? Like between light and dark or good and bad?
In DE or only in thoughts?


I don't know how light & dark can be considered the same
Do you find the word 'pain' in the sensation?
Or do you only find it as content of a thought? Followed by many more thoughts, starting to tell a story.
Let this all sink in and share what you find.


OK, I need to explore this further.
I’ll continue with this tomorrow
Much love

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:54 pm

I’m starting to think that EVERY word/label is a concept!
Good thinking. :-)
No word comes on its own.....
I don't know how light & dark can be considered the same
In seeing there is just seeing, no label like light and dark.
And yes, we are trained in duality. We think, we open our mouths and out comes duality. Everything is either this or that.
Light and dark, hot and cold, pain and pleasure and so on. But all this are just sensations in DE and everything else what follows is thought.
So in light and dark there is just colour - the whole distinction is thoughts work.
There is nothing wrong with distictions, absolutely not, but right now we look beneath them.

Please remember gating is the first step of many more and a lot more understanding will follow while walking.

I am looking forward to your next answer.

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:15 am

Is 'pain' found anywhere else than in thought?
Or is there simply only a sensation?
Do you find the word 'pain' in the sensation?
Or do you only find it as content of a thought? Followed by many more thoughts, starting to tell a story.
There is nothing wrong with distictions, absolutely not, but right now we look beneath them.
Does a sensation know that it is good or bad? Welcomed or not?
Underneath the label of pain I find vibrations & some sort of energy. Sometimes fast vibrations, sometimes very fast. There is also a pulsing - a radiation of ‘energy’ around the body.
There is no word ‘pain’ to be found anywhere.
So this is a grouping. A label that groups a collection of sensations & more thought.

I see the same with the words 'happiness' or 'excitement'.
So that’s pain - done. I see clearly that ‘pain’ doesn’t exist.
With feelings I get what you are saying, there are just sensations.

Now for light & dark
I’m looking around the room & trying to determine what I know for real. Just using eyesight.

I see that it ‘could’ all be 2D
I see that I cannot know what anything is behind the shapes & colours. Any concept of 3d is just that, a concept.

But
If it was all dark. There would be no light. It would be dark. My sight would just see blackness. Then when lights appear I see shapes & shadows.

I’m finding the labels through sight difficult to see past.
I cannot seem to get underneath the concepts from ‘sight’ like I can now do with feelings, like the word ‘pain’.

Light and Dark are very different to me. I cannot see them as the same thing. I cannot see them as concepts.

Much Love

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:21 am

Good work, again!
A label that groups a collection of sensations & more thought.
Yes, there is just something noticed and then the story, explanation, aka thougths kick in. Speedily, right? There is a moment where there is just experience, but it is not easy to catch. Don't be frustrated if this doesn't work right now on spot....
I’m finding the labels through sight difficult to see past.
I cannot seem to get underneath the concepts from ‘sight’ like I can now do with feelings, like the word ‘pain’.
No problem, we will get to seeing in a short time. Light and dark are felt very strongly by the most people.

But after all the work it is time for a little break where you can use your honed ability for simply looking, and it is an relaxing exercise. :-D

Do this exercise with a fun and joyful approach. Don't think too much about it beforehand - just do it. Be open and allow yourself to be surprised.

Please find a quiet place and a quiet time.
Sit or lay down and relax. Close your eyes and relax.

Can you attend to sensation exclusively?
Not minding thought babbling about this and that?
Not minding thought labelling sensation for a bit?

Thought may tell: "I am lying here" or "My body is lying here" or "A body is lying here".
But could this be known from pure sensation?

Thought might suggest: "There is a soft pressure against the back".
But could you know about "pressure" or "back" from pure sensation?

Once arrived there, while ONLY attending to sensation, please have a look at the following questions:

Can be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a specific size, shape or weight?
How many toes are there?
Is there an inside or an outside?
Can it be known if the body is old or young, male or female? Just by using the senses?

What do you find?

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:58 am

A great exercise. I couldn’t find the top of my head!

In vipassana I would scan the body (including toes). I see now that this is thought driven.

But, if I follow your instructions and allow the sensations to speak first & only listen to sensations. There are no toes.
Rather than using my head to guide my awareness to my toes, my awareness became my feet - or at least that area. But no boundaries.
Is body tall? Cannot tell
Body size or shape? No, as soon as I look at where I think the boundary is, it disappears
No inside or outside
No confirmation or inclination of body age, gender

I will do this exercise again
Thank you


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