The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:32 pm

“Do you know what direct looking means? You might need it to answer the thought question.”
Looking to prove that “I” does not exist
Direct looking can be used as a tool, but in itself it is just direct looking.

We are looking here for that which can be directly experienced with the senses. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling (as in bodily sensations).
Seeing is simply colour as everything that is 'seen' ie objects have colour.
Hearing is simply sound as everything that is 'heard' is sound
Smelling is simply smell as all scents smelled are smells
Tastes are simply taste as all flavours tasted are simply taste
Sensation are simply sensation as all body sensations and touch feelings are simply sensation
Thought are simply thought as all thoughts/words/labels are simply thoughts/words/labels

We are just wanting to highlight sensory perceptions. And sensory perception are colour/seeing, sound/hearing, smell/scent, taste/flavour, sensation/feeling/touch.

‘Looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. It is moving from the conceptual down to the direct experience (DE). The term “Direct of Actual Experience” is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, direct experience (DE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought, at face value. What thought says ie, the content of thought is NOT experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word 'sweet'. So, when looking at direct experience (DE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.
What about a sense of balance or a sense of space awareness?
Can these be directly experienced via the senses? Via seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling (bodily sensation)?
If not you deal with a thought in its function of labeling and describing.
Remember the "I feel this and that" no sensation but thought. Same here.
The input is from our senses. The brain receives/perceives & then processes (like a computer) before spitting out a thought (s).
Thoughts are ALWAYS a result of perceptions via sensory input.
How is this known?
Can this be known directly? Can you see or hear brain? Can you see or hear the process?

This is so important, we learned to mistake knowledge for experience.
What is knowledge? Do you see brain spitting out thoughts or have you learned in school or somewhere else that brain and thoughts are connected? Can you directly expirience the connection or is it a thought content "thoughts come from the brain"?

Here we are only ONLY interested in what can be experienced directly.

Homework: ;-)
Write down what you do right now
- sitting behind the computer
- looking at the screen
- drinking the coffee
- telephone rings
- will phone friend later

Now break down the experience into direct experience - the raw experience
- sitting (sensation) behind the computer (seeing-colour)
- looking at the screen (seeing-colour)
- drinking the coffee (seeing - colour, smelling- smell, tasting- taste)
- telephone rings (hearing- sound)
- will phone friend later (thought about future)

Do this and just this.

When you did this several times over the day - give me some examples.

Love
Jadzia
There is only awareness - a concept I am exploring. It is awareness that is present. Awareness of everything. This sounds like superpowers!
What is a concept in DE?

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:19 am

What is a concept in DE?
A thought
Now break down the experience into direct experience - the raw experience
- sitting (sensation) behind the computer (seeing-colour)
- looking at the screen (seeing-colour)
- drinking the coffee (seeing - colour, smelling- smell, tasting- taste)
- telephone rings (hearing- sound)
- will phone friend later (thought about future)

Do this and just this.

When you did this several times over the day - give me some examples.
So I am exploring the difference between knowledge & experience.

I tried the exercise a number of times.

My goal was to experience with no labels

Thoughts & opinions come up. From where I do not know! Some I observe and some pull me in to a chain of thought.

I managed some sustained periods of experience without labels.

Then labels come in, birds singing, voices talking. Sensations external, back against the chair, breeze. Internal, vibrations in my head.

Why do I do some things & not others?

Is everything I want, manufactured by my false self?

I get this recurring thought of having to get myself out of the way to let the real me come through. But of course we are trying to realise that there is no real me to come through.

I do the exercise with the thought present that any description I provide is simply perception with labels. Not raw.

Raw Experience
Labeling as sounds, thoughts - the sound is irritating
Voices,
Physical comfort in some areas, mild discomfort in others
Sensation in lips, thoughts - dry lips
Voices, thoughts - ignore voices
Scratch head - I did this without thinking first to do so, or thinking not to do

Dry lips, thought, put lip balm on. Action, put lip balm on
Flick hair from my face, no preceding thought
Voices - general awareness
Ceiling fans spinning - sound & sight
Cool air near my feet
Awareness of space in the room
Voices

My Eyes blinking
Laughing, voices
Words, but I’m not following, just aware
Mild sensations in my fingers
Voices
Straighten posture
I see a chair & table
Small light flashing
Breathing
Burp

Observing thoughts, am I doing this right? I cannot really explain without labels, Is the goal just to have a big mixture of sights, sounds, thoughts & sensations without labels? Just an experience/awareness of everything all at once with no label?

Ears vibrating
Inner sensations, vibrations
Sounds - getting irritated - sensations & thoughts
Energetic vibrations inside centre of my head
Experiencing deep calmness, peace. Acceptance
Thoughts, you are not here to get into a meditative state!!! Find self!!!

Thoughts, no you’re not here to find self, you are here to report on raw experience!
Thoughts, how long does this process last? Weeks, months? Am I on track, I wonder if I’m doing OK.

Sounds, coughing
Fans spinning - sights & sound
Sensation - left hand on top of right hand
More Thoughts
More sounds
Stillness
Thoughts, negative, despondent

There is no measurement of progress!!
Why do I keep judging my progress & performance? It’s insane, it’s impossible to judge my own progress. Where does this come from?

There is a thought I experience, & the thought gives me a happy feeling. It’s the thought that I am making progress. (Along the spiritual path or towards the realisation of no self)
I find myself looking around for evidence of me making progress, so that I can have this thought of me making progress & then I can experience the happy feeling of making progress.

A few days ago Jadzia, you asked me -
Was I in a rush? Why rush?
There is fear of failure in me that I will run out of time & not get it.

Thank you Jadzia for your continued loving guidance

Much Love

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:24 pm

There is fear of failure in me that I will run out of time & not get it.
This and asking if there is progress or not shows pressure. If you can - drop all pressure.
It might sound odd now, but there is nothing to get. It is allright right now, everything is known - it is just like looking fixedly at one spot and therefore not seeing the whole picture.
And pressure blocks the way.
Relax. Focus. Be precise.
My goal was to experience with no labels
This was not the exercise!
We neither get rid of the whatever the self is nor of labels or anything else.
What falls away eventually will do - what we do here is just the step throught the gate, the first step of many.

So please simply stick to the exercises the way they are given.
Sensation - left hand on top of right hand
Yes, left hand on top of the right hand = sensation
So there is experience to which labels/names are added. So far so good.
If you put your hands the same way again but now close your eyes.
How is it known that there are hands, or hands onto each other?
Please give a short answer - only direct experience, please.

Love
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:33 pm

Yes, left hand on top of the right hand = sensation
So there is experience to which labels/names are added. So far so good.
If you put your hands the same way again but now close your eyes.
How is it known that there are hands, or hands onto each other?
Please give a short answer - only direct experience, please.
There is pressure
There is warmth

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:36 pm

There is pressure
There is warmth
Can pressure or warmth be felt in DE?

Remember we try to find what is experience - can be experienced - and what is added.

Love
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:54 pm

there is touch

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:59 pm

Yes, just touch and as you might have already guessed, touch is a lable too, but somehow and with some words we have to do this investigation. ;-)
So whatever seems to happen or appear is labeled in no time.

Now go and check what the label self corresponds to.
Keep it as simple.

Love
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:59 pm

Now go and check what the label self corresponds to.
Keep it as simple.
Just because the self is elusive, it doesn’t prove that it doesn’t exist to me

Just because the self fluctuates in its manifestation doesn’t prove that it doesn’t exist to me

I know what you are saying is true, I just cannot grasp it.

There is a sense of self, it is a feeling,

The self is a feeling driving a thought. A thought of me.

But I still have this sense of self.

I continue...

Much Love

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:36 pm

Just because the self is elusive, it doesn’t prove that it doesn’t exist to me
It isn't.
We were talking about labels, how everything is named. So it is to see what is there which is labeld I and me, my, mine. Just this.
My body, my thoughts, my....... Me doing this.... . I the son brother mother ect.
But I still have this sense of self.
Yes, of course. A sense of self is needed.
Think about it, would you like to hear a word called and not realize that it is your name? Not be able to react? Loose all labels and be speechless because you wouldn't have words for talking?
Think this through.

What we try here is to realize that something is an illusion, which means that something which is there isn't eactly what it generally is thought to be. There is no trying to reach a certain state or to rid oneself of something.

Ok, lets have a little break.
Tell me:
What do you expect the looking through the illusion to be like?
What will change?
How will you change?
How your life?
How would you recognize that the shift in overview did happen?

Take some time to answer this questions and drop all other searching and looking for the moment.

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:43 pm

Ok, lets have a little break.
Tell me:
What do you expect the looking through the illusion to be like?
What will change? How will you change? How your life?
It’s a long story but I’ll try to be short.
I have let go of many painful attachments & this has given me an unbelievable sense of freedom. A 6 year journey that was painful beyond belief, but has delivered many wonderful inner fruits that I could never have imagined. I am so grateful.

My life & flow is now wonderful, it has been for a year or so. Peaks & troughs but I love the ride. I have tools to deal with emotional discomfort.

But
I have a constant commentary, constant judgement of things going well, things going bad.

I know that I’m going to do what I am going to do
so why do I keep getting in the way, sabotaging & judging?

I have seen through so many of my own illusions but I still have to fit into this culture.

I have not seen the me driving the bus

I hope that by seeing through this self important & needy me, it will allow me to just get on with things without the internal judgement & measurement.
How would you recognize that the shift in overview did happen?
You know, I sometimes think I’m nearly there. Things happen (internally) & I am nowhere near the same with my reactions. I'm largely at peace and I recognise inner distance

I have been looking at this a little bit differently. But I'm not quite there yet, to say that I have seen something that can never be unseen.
Yes, of course. A sense of self is needed.
Think about it, would you like to hear a word called and not realize that it is your name? Not be able to react? Loose all labels and be speechless because you wouldn't have words for talking?
Think this through.
Thank you for this. This is new perspective for me. I am looking not eliminating. I've heard this but now it feels different. I'm just looking, allowing.

I see a lot. Maybe I am seeing.

I need to refine my search. My discernment to see between knowledge & experience. (thank you for this)

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:32 pm

I have let go of many painful attachments & this has given me an unbelievable sense of freedom. A 6 year journey that was painful beyond belief, but has delivered many wonderful inner fruits that I could never have imagined. I am so grateful.
My life & flow is now wonderful, it has been for a year or so. Peaks & troughs but I love the ride. I have tools to deal with emotional discomfort.
Beautiful.
I have a constant commentary, constant judgement of things going well, things going bad.
This sounds like the expectation that all thoughts drop away with the realization that the self isn't something tangible. That self is not the thinker, the doer, the one acting, the hearer, the one who sees, tastes, feels or the thinker or something like the body. When it is understood as deep experientell knowing, that something else hides behind the illusion.
This is not so. Nada, nope, no way.

Thoughts do stay and do their thought thingy, like giving commentary, advice, labels, sorting in of stuff and so on.
And there is so nothing wrong with it, they are part of life the same way as rain is, cars are and any tree.

Why so?
Gating is the first step of many. Or put differently gating is the prerequisite for all other steps to come.
Losening up the firm belief is helpful and one feels the changes in ones life, but one might not have looked everywhere and really cleared the field. Seeing through ususally starts the unravelling of beliefs and identifications and and ....which for some might not be much fun.

Do thoughts ever get quiet?
Totally? Maybe when you live in a cave in the Himalaya, not as long as you have to do taxes or fill out other forms. ;-)
But they do become quiet, really slip into the background.
I need to refine my search. My discernment to see between knowledge & experience.
Please decide if you want to go on on your own in your style or if you will follow some pointers and do some exercises to enlighten muddy spots and get clear about the whole thing with my help using full dedication.

Love
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:19 pm

Hi Jadzia
Thank you for your kind reply but I'm confused with some of your comments.

I do really appreciate that you guide me with your wisdom.

I am, and have been trying my best from the outset. I am not doing my thing. I'm disappointed that you think so.
How is this known?
Can this be known directly? Can you see or hear brain? Can you see or hear the process

This is so important, we learned to mistake knowledge for experience.

What is knowledge? Do you see brain spitting out thoughts or have you learned in school or somewhere else that brain and thoughts are connected? Can you directly expirience the connection or is it a thought content "thoughts come from the brain"?
Here we are only ONLY interested in what can be experienced directly.
I need to refine my search. My discernment to see between knowledge & experience.
Please decide if you want to go on on your own in your style or if you will follow some pointers and do some exercises to enlighten muddy spots and get clear about the whole thing with my help using full dedication.
I'm following the advice you gave me to discern between knowledge and experience.

My intent is to continue to follow your advice.

Much love

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:26 pm

It was your last sentence which threw me off a bit - so thanks for what you wrote. I know you give your very best.

So what thoughts come up with what I wrote in the last post?

Love
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:13 pm

So what thoughts come up with what I wrote in the last post?
I have consistently experienced the feeling & thought that progress was being made throughout our dealings together.

I felt a sense of chaos
I had thoughts of doubt for the first time about this process
I wondered how many people you are helping

I had a sense of disappointment, then I felt a surge of energy, sure, I can go my own way. My own way is all I’ve got!

I am very grateful to you & have been from the start, for your willingness to be available each day & to offer your wisdom with patience.

You are testing me & sharpening my attention in new directions from a new perspective.

I am realising that self is not to be realised or destroyed. Just observed for what it really is, or isn't, using direct looking. Every moment (including this one) is a chance to see.

I hope this continues. Thank you

Much Love

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:39 pm

No need to be grateful, please.
There is no separation, none at all. Who helps you?
I am realising that self is not to be realised or destroyed. Just observed for what it really is, or isn't, using direct looking. Every moment (including this one) is a chance to see.
There is nothing to destroy, how would you destroy an illusion?
And yes, it is direct looking.

So lets go on.
There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Love
Jadzia


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