How do I realize the illusion of the separate self?

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Vivien
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Re: How do I realize the illusion of the separate self?

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:58 am

Dear Naya,
There is a subtle sense of an invisible witness being there because witnessing is the only constant in every situation. All objects of perception are constantly changing.
This witness you are talking about is the illusion of the self!

Please focus on the ‘subtle sense of invisible witness’.

How does it actually experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?

Is there an ACTUAL witness outside of what is happening, looking at it?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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NayaCardena
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Re: How do I realize the illusion of the separate self?

Postby NayaCardena » Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:37 am

Dear Vivien,
Please focus on the ‘subtle sense of invisible witness’.
How does it actually experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?
It's hard to describe. It's experienced more as a thought or an imagination. For instance, right now images are perceived, bodily sensations are felt, and the sound of running water is heard. At the same time, there is an assumption that all these perceptions are witnessed by the same entity.

Is there an ACTUAL witness outside of what is happening, looking at it?
I'm not sure. I can't find one, but for some reason, saying that doesn't ring true to me.

Naya

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Vivien
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Re: How do I realize the illusion of the separate self?

Postby Vivien » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:06 am

Dear Naya,
It's hard to describe. It's experienced more as a thought or an imagination.
This is a key point here.

Witness cannot be experienced as a thought or an imagination.
Since a thought or imagination is NOT REAL.

It’s impossible to experience an IMAGINED witness.
Since it’s not there! It’s just imagined.
V: Is there an ACTUAL witness outside of what is happening, looking at it?
N: I'm not sure. I can't find one, but for some reason, saying that doesn't ring true to me.
Yes, because it’s not enough to say it to yourself, or repeat it as a mantra.

You actually have to SEE if there is a witness outside of what is happening, looking in.

So please look more.

Is there an ACTUAL witness outside of what is happening, looking IN?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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NayaCardena
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Re: How do I realize the illusion of the separate self?

Postby NayaCardena » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:33 am

Hi Vivien,
I will get back to you tomorrow.
Naya

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NayaCardena
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Re: How do I realize the illusion of the separate self?

Postby NayaCardena » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:51 am

Dear Vivien,
Is there an ACTUAL witness outside of what is happening, looking IN?
When I asked myself this question throughout the day, I always come up with the thought "it feels that this body is perceiving whatever is happening outside".

I then ask questions such as : "Is the world seen by these eyes?", "Is this sound heard by the ears", etc, and come to the realization that the body is a sensation that can't known anything and that is itself felt.

I also look for evidence that there is a witness. (Is there anything feeling the body? Seeing? Hearing? Tasting?) I haven't found anything yet.

Naya

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Vivien
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Re: How do I realize the illusion of the separate self?

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:16 am

Dear Naya,
When I asked myself this question throughout the day, I always come up with the thought "it feels that this body is perceiving whatever is happening outside".
And does it matter what thoughts ‘say’?
WHO is listening to this thought? WHO is believing it?
Are you the thinker of thoughts?
Do make the thought “it feels that this body is perceiving whatever is happening outside" to appear?
Do you think this thought?
Have you created this thought?
"it feels that this body is perceiving whatever is happening outside".
And please describe me the FEELING of the ‘body is being the perceiver’, but without any speculation, imagination or metaphor. Just the pure FEELING itself.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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NayaCardena
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Re: How do I realize the illusion of the separate self?

Postby NayaCardena » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:25 am

Dear Vivien,
N: When I asked myself this question throughout the day, I always come up with the thought "it feels that this body is perceiving whatever is happening outside".
“And does it matter what thoughts ‘say’?”
Only to the extent that they shape how I perceive the world.

WHO is listening to this thought? WHO is believing it?
I can’t find the one who is believing these thoughts. Thoughts arise spontaneously. Some are quickly seen to be untrue and others aren’t.

Are you the thinker of thoughts?
No. All thoughts arise by themselves.

Do make the thought “it feels that this body is perceiving whatever is happening outside" to appear?
No. It’s just a conditioned belief that arises anytime there is an inquiry going on about who or what is perceiving.


Do you think this thought?
No. It arises on its own.

Have you created this thought?
No. I have not.

N:"it feels that this body is perceiving whatever is happening outside".
“And please describe me the FEELING of the ‘body is being the perceiver’, but without any
speculation, imagination or metaphor. Just the pure FEELING itself.”
That “feeling” is nothing more than a thought that is believed. Bodily sensations do not “speak”. They do not say “I am the one that’s observing what’s in front of me”.

Naya

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Vivien
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Re: How do I realize the illusion of the separate self?

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:00 am

Dear Naya,
V: Do make the thought “it feels that this body is perceiving whatever is happening outside" to appear?
N: It’s just a conditioned belief that arises anytime there is an inquiry going on about who or what is perceiving.
If you can really see that the ‘I’ is just a fictional character, then how is it possible that you still believe that she/Naya is the perceiver?

Are you really sure that you can actually SEE that Naya is just a fictional character?
V: “And does it matter what thoughts ‘say’?”
N: Only to the extent that they shape how I perceive the world.
Who/what is perceiving the world? The character Naya is perceiving the world?

Please don’t say that there is no perceiver, while you clearly believe that there is one.
Rather investigate it very deeply.

If the believe in the perceiver is so pervasive, then it isn’t seen that Naya is just the product of imagination.
Bodily sensations do not “speak”. They do not say “I am the one that’s observing what’s in front of me”.
So if sensations don’t speak, then who/what speaks the words “I am the one that is observing what is in front of me”? The character Naya?

Again, please don’t just say that there is no perceiver, rather investigate it deeply. Go to the heart of it.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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NayaCardena
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Re: How do I realize the illusion of the separate self?

Postby NayaCardena » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:18 am

Thanks, Vivien. I will get back to you tomorrow.
Naya

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NayaCardena
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Re: How do I realize the illusion of the separate self?

Postby NayaCardena » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:42 pm

Dear Vivien,
V: Do make the thought “it feels that this body is perceiving whatever is happening outside" to appear?
N: It’s just a conditioned belief that arises anytime there is an inquiry going on about who or what is perceiving.
“If you can really see that the ‘I’ is just a fictional character, then how is it possible that you still believe that she/Naya is the perceiver?”
I guess I am not 100% convinced. I can see that thoughts about an “I” arise on their own, but most of the time I believe that the “I” that is referred by thoughts is real. This belief may be stronger than the clarity I have that is only intermittent.

Are you really sure that you can actually SEE that Naya is just a fictional character?
I have some moments of clarity but I have not reached a point where I have some unshakable conviction, otherwise, I would know it.

V: “And does it matter what thoughts ‘say’?”
N: Only to the extent that they shape how I perceive the world.
Who/what is perceiving the world? The character Naya is perceiving the world?
The belief that “I” am perceiving the world is ingrained. But I can also see that there is evidence supporting the fact that “I” am not perceiving the world. For instance, “my” so-called body is also perceived, just like images in front of this body are perceived.
“If the believe in the perceiver is so pervasive, then it isn’t seen that Naya is just the product of imagination.”
OK.
Naya : Bodily sensations do not “speak”. They do not say “I am the one that’s observing what’s in front of me”.
So if sensations don’t speak, then who/what speaks the words “I am the one that is observing what is in front of me”? The character Naya?
These are thoughts arising spontaneously that are believed…I don’t know by whom.

Naya

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Vivien
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Re: How do I realize the illusion of the separate self?

Postby Vivien » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:49 am

Dear Naya,
I guess I am not 100% convinced. I can see that thoughts about an “I” arise on their own, but most of the time I believe that the “I” that is referred by thoughts is real. This belief may be stronger than the clarity I have that is only intermittent.
Thank you for your honesty. We are going back to investigating thoughts very thoroughly. I’m going to give you several sets of questions to look at thoughts in the following days. There might be some repetition, but that is what is needed here. Please always look afresh with every single question, and never rely on the memory of a previous looking, even when it was clearly seen several times. Always look again.
Also, stay with the questions for a whole day, looking again and again. Be very thorough.

Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this?
Isn’t a thought only known as it appears?
Are you making thoughts go or are they showing up and leaving by themselves?
Is the Naya-character in charge of making thoughts to appear?
And is the me-character in charge making thoughts go?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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NayaCardena
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Re: How do I realize the illusion of the separate self?

Postby NayaCardena » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:45 am

Dear Vivien,
Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this?
When I seat patiently, I see that I cannot predict the next thought that will show up.
Isn’t a thought only known as it appears?
Yes. I can't predict the next thought that will arise now.

Are you making thoughts go or are they showing up and leaving by themselves?
Most thoughts appear and leave by themselves. However, when I read your question, it seems that I am in control of the answer. I am making the answer appear.

Is the Naya-character in charge of making thoughts to appear?
"I am making thoughts appear". It seems that I made this sentence appear, that I was in control.

"And is the me-character in charge making thoughts go?"
No. Thoughts appear and are then replaced by another thought or by another perception. There is no experience of "me" making thoughts go.

Naya

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Vivien
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Re: How do I realize the illusion of the separate self?

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:05 am

Dear Naya,
Most thoughts appear and leave by themselves. However, when I read your question, it seems that I am in control of the answer. I am making the answer appear.
How do you actually PERFORM the ACT of making an answer to appear?
Please write a step-by-step instruction HOW you PERFORM THE ACT of making an answer to appear.

But you can only write about what is happening in experience, without any imagination or speculation.
"I am making thoughts appear". It seems that I made this sentence appear, that I was in control.
Where is this ‘I’ that is in control? WHERE? So where is this ‘I’ that is thinking up and controlling thoughts?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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NayaCardena
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Re: How do I realize the illusion of the separate self?

Postby NayaCardena » Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:01 am

Sounds good, Vivien. I will come back to your tomorrow.
Naya

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NayaCardena
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Re: How do I realize the illusion of the separate self?

Postby NayaCardena » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:31 am

Dear Vivien,
N: Most thoughts appear and leave by themselves. However, when I read your question, it seems that I am in control of the answer. I am making the answer appear.
How do you actually PERFORM the ACT of making an answer to appear?
I just seat and think the thought “I am making thoughts to appear.”

Please write a step-by-step instruction HOW you PERFORM THE ACT of making an answer to appear.
There is no step other than thinking. Right now I can simply think any thought on-demand.

N: "I am making thoughts appear". It seems that I made this sentence appear, that I was in control.
Where is this ‘I’ that is in control? WHERE? So where is this ‘I’ that is thinking up and controlling thoughts?
I can see that this body is not making thoughts to appear.
I can’t find what’s making this thought appear.

Naya


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