Nobody Home

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Sansho
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:38 pm

Nobody Home

Postby Sansho » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:40 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is no I, my, me or mine in the body/mind organism. Life is just happening but it is not to me. Also understand the self simply is a means for interacting with others.

What are you looking for at LU?
To be one with the Truth of Nonduality. I have been studying in detail the various approaches to non duality and feel clear about the teaching. Yes, no doer, thinker, hearer etc. yet there still seems to be a sticking point.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To clarify where the sticking point is to dissolving the apparent barrier to oneness. I would appreciate feedback on where there is no gap between awareness and selfing. I can see/hear the thoughts, sense perceptions coming and going yet there is no apparent dropping of searching.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Meditating for many years and reading/listening to many Advaita teachers. Understand the fundamentals...very clear.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Nobody Home

Postby Verananda » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:37 am

Hi Sansho,

welcome to Liberation Unleashed. Glad you made it here.
I am Ve and I can be your guide if that's okay with you.

Here are some arrangements we make to work together:

First I want to ask you to check out the Quote-Function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers. You can see here how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

During our conversation I will ask you a series of questions. For each, you will look at your own Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) and answer with 100% honesty. Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) is smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts.

During this guiding, please avoid any other teachings, spiritual books, writings, YouTube videos or talks. If you have a meditation practice, feel free to continue with it as usual. It is best to avoid analyzing, speculation and debate. The mind will try to create distraction.

Please make an effort to write here every day or at least every second. This works best if we keep a constant focus on looking. If you are unable to do this on occasion, or you need more time for looking just let me know. I'll do the same for you.


Do you agree with this?

ok, so lets start:
To clarify where the sticking point is to dissolving the apparent barrier to oneness
Please look for this "apparent barrier to oneness" in direct experience and describe what you find!
I would appreciate feedback on where there is no gap between awareness and selfing.
Please explain a bit more what you mean and how you experience it?

Looking forward to our talk,
Ve

User avatar
Sansho
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:38 pm

Re: Nobody Home

Postby Sansho » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:53 pm

1) Right now, I am hearing the birds outside the window, then seeing the room, then feeling the pen as I write this answer that I will type in. There is sensing. The sensations come and go followed by others, a parade of perceptions in awareness so that they color the awareness so that it still appears that “I am hearing, seeing etc,
2) It appears that awareness = sensations, feelings, thoughts etc. I can be aware of the coming and going of each but apparently not as a detached witness to them. Just now, as I wrote this I noticed there was a sense of seeking for an experience beyond what was happening in the moment. A wanting more than what was present at the moment. “This is not enough”.
(Should I copy the request you are asking prior to the answer?)

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Nobody Home

Postby Verananda » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:11 pm

(Should I copy the request you are asking prior to the answer?)
yes please, only one short part that you are referenzing in your answer and use the quote function as described above!
Right now, I am hearing the birds outside the window, then seeing the room, then feeling the pen as I write this answer that I will type in. There is sensing. The sensations come and go followed by others, a parade of perceptions in awareness so that they color the awareness so that it still appears that “I am hearing, seeing etc,
so where do you find this "apparent barrier to oneness" ?
It appears that awareness = sensations, feelings, thoughts etc. I can be aware of the coming and going of each but apparently not as a detached witness to them.
yes exactly! so can you find an observer or witness? Or is it just experience? Can you find subject and object? Or just experience, one whole flow happening?
Just now, as I wrote this I noticed there was a sense of seeking for an experience beyond what was happening in the moment. A wanting more than what was present at the moment. “This is not enough”.
What is this in direct experience? More than thought?
Can there ever be any experience beyond what was happening in the moment? Can anything be other than it is?

Love Ve

User avatar
Sansho
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:38 pm

Re: Nobody Home

Postby Sansho » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:05 am

[*]
so where do you find this "apparent barrier to oneness" ?
I guess it’s more of an idea of what oneness might be experienced as. When I look there is just experiencing yet there is a sense that this can’t be it.
so can you find an observer or witness? Or is it just experience?
It is the flow of experiencing. But the observer/witness is one with the experience. Isn’t there supposed be a gap between the seeing, for example, and the observer?
What is this in direct experience? More than thought?
Can there ever be any experience beyond what was happening in the moment? Can anything be other than it is?
I gather we can only experience one perception, feeling, thought at a time I don’t understand what oneness might mean other than all is within the one awareness. But isn’t that just another thought? If oneness is all there is then every experience is an expression of that, so can one be a witness to that? That would be a dualistic view: observer and observed.I don’t know if I’m making any sense.
BTW, I forgot to thank you for your time and inquiry questions.

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Nobody Home

Postby Verananda » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:48 pm

yet there is a sense that this can’t be it.
is it realy a sense? (image, sound, sensation, taste, semll) ...? Or is it a thought?
But the observer/witness is one with the experience.
what is your experience?
can you find any kind of observer/witness?
tell me how it is experienced!
or do you find just experience without observer and without the observed?
Isn’t there supposed be a gap between the seeing, for example, and the observer?
yes that is what is said often ....
there are a lot of interesting beliefs around concerning awakening ......
what we do here is looking for what is true.
I gather we can only experience one perception, feeling, thought at a time I don’t understand what oneness might mean other than all is within the one awareness. But isn’t that just another thought? If oneness is all there is then every experience is an expression of that, so can one be a witness to that? That would be a dualistic view: observer and observed.I don’t know if I’m making any sense.
you are doing very good! It makes sense.
Now LOOK in your experience for the answeres to your questions and tell me what you find!
Often there are only these old beliefs that are in the way of seeing what is very obvious!

:-)

Love Ve

User avatar
Sansho
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:38 pm

Re: Nobody Home

Postby Sansho » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:44 am

is it realy a sense? (image, sound, sensation, taste, semll) ...? Or is it a thought?
It is just another thought that”it can’t be”. I guess thought is labeling itself as a sensation. There is also a “looking”for a vague something “more”. Clearly, if I let that go there will another present experience.
can you find any kind of observer/witness?
No, if I could find an observer/witness, there would need to be a witness to that!
there are a lot of interesting beliefs around concerning awakening ......
what we do here is looking for what is true.
There is getting back to trusting of the present experience that is absent when a thought starts to question it.
Now LOOK in your experience for the answeres to your questions and tell me what you find!
Often there are only these old beliefs that are in the way of seeing what is very obvious!
Literally looking at present experience is weightless when there is no additional baggage of thought hitch hiking.

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Nobody Home

Postby Verananda » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:51 pm

It is just another thought that”it can’t be”. I guess thought is labeling itself as a sensation. There is also a “looking”for a vague something “more”. Clearly, if I let that go there will another present experience.
There is only the experience here and now. When there is a thought ”it can’t be” or "lookingfor a vague something" you can see there is this thought. There is a difference between experiencing a thought or beliefing a thought (means beliefing the content of thought). You see the difference? We will do en exercice concerning thought, I put it at the end of this post .....
No, if I could find an observer/witness, there would need to be a witness to that!
This is a logical conclusion. Can you see/find any kind of observer/witness in direct experience?
Realy look for it! Even if the answer would be same it makes the difference if you look instead of conclude.
There is getting back to trusting of the present experience that is absent when a thought starts to question it.
The present experience then is thought. You can see there is a thought questioning .... Or you belief the content of the thought. See the difference!
There is getting back to trusting of the present experience that is absent when a thought starts to question it.
there is no problem with thought. we don't need to get ride of them or change them. just stop believing everything what they say (thought content).....

here is the thought-exercise:
Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence or something like a connection between two thoughts. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Please go through these questions and answer and quote ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Try to answer them only from direct experience, and leave aside all intellectual interpretation or understanding. Please, DON’T THINK about the answers, rather LOOK at what is before thoughts. Take your time.

Love Ve

User avatar
Sansho
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:38 pm

Re: Nobody Home

Postby Sansho » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:27 pm

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.
Sat quietly for approx. half an hour. Normally how long I meditate and noticed thinking.
Where are they coming from and going to?
Thoughts just appear and disappear into the void.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No, the thoughts appeared on their own and then disappeared.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No way did that appear to be an option. It came and went too quickly and w/o any chance to substitute another thought.
Can you predict your next thought?
No way is it possible. I am still betwwn thoughts and open to the next one.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
There is no way that I ever experience a range of thoughts that would allow me to pick and choose a pleasant thought.
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence or something like a connection between two thoughts. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
Same answer as the previous one related to negative/fearful thoughts.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No, picking and choosing is not an option when it comes to thoughts appearing and disappearing.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
It’s clear that thoughts come prior to my being able to prevent their appearing since I have no way knowing what’s coming next.
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
That does not appear to be possible since they come and go spontaneously. A better option is to just let them pass awayon their own.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence or something like a connection between two thoughts. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
Thoughts appear to come in an ordered sequence when dealing with solving a problem or working on a project. So it does seem that one thought follows another or there would be no way to complete a action.

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Nobody Home

Postby Verananda » Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:43 pm

Thoughts appear to come in an ordered sequence when dealing with solving a problem or working on a project. So it does seem that one thought follows another or there would be no way to complete a action.
Can you find any kind of connection between these " ordered thoughts" in direct experience?
A better option is to just let them pass awayon their own.
Can you decide to let them pass or not?

User avatar
Sansho
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:38 pm

Re: Nobody Home

Postby Sansho » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:21 am

Can you find any kind of connection between these " ordered thoughts" in direct experience?
No, there is no connection. Just an arising and a passing away.
Can you decide to let them pass or not?
No, there is just a stream of thoughts with no doing by anyone.

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Nobody Home

Postby Verananda » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:13 am

so this seems very clear ....

in your intro you wrote:
yet there still seems to be a sticking point.
Is this sticking point still there?
If so please elaborate!

Love Ve

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Nobody Home

Postby Verananda » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Hi Sansho,

how are you doing?

Are there any more sticking points or open question?

Otherwise I can give you the 6 final questions - it is a good way to see if it all clear.
What do you think?

Love Ve


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests