Knowing

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taylor
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:15 am

Re: Knowing

Postby taylor » Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:05 am

"Where are they coming from and going to?"
the thoughts are coming from nowhere and dissolving into space
"Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?"
no they just pour through the space like raindrops in the sky
"Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?"
absoloutely not
"Can you predict your next thought?"
impossible
"Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?"
no way
"Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?"
absoloutely not
"Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?"
no they arise by themselves
"Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?"
once again.. No there is no control and no contoller to be found
"Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?"
impossible to stop a thought in the middle it seems thoughts vanish when looking at them
"It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence or something like a connection between two thoughts. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?"
a bit of frustration coming up here locating the connection between two thoughts. it looks like there is no connection there
these thoughts are slippery and appear to disappear when looking.one thought has nothing to do with the next thought
love taylor x

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Verananda
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Knowing

Postby Verananda » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:23 am

great
:-)


here is one more:

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?



Love Ve

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taylor
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:15 am

Re: Knowing

Postby taylor » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:24 am

How is the movement controlled?
"the movement happens automatically "
Does a thought control it?
"i remember thoughts commentating about the hand but no thoughts controlling the actions"
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
" no... it just happened automatically.... no one at the station"
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
"observed hand turning over randomly and thought didnt get a word in ..it didnt even claim ownership!"
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
"no there was just this hand turning over .. no thing to be found"
(really appreciate this time and effort from you Ve)
Thank you xx
love taylor

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Verananda
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Knowing

Postby Verananda » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:32 am

great :-)

so do you have open questions, something you want to investigate or dive in deeper?

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taylor
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:15 am

Re: Knowing

Postby taylor » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:54 am

so do you have open questions, something you want to investigate or dive in deeper?
"observing the hand moving without seeing a controller was fun....can it be that simple?
can just seeing that help unravel conditioning?"
love taylor x

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Verananda
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Knowing

Postby Verananda » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:18 pm

observing the hand moving without seeing a controller was fun....can it be that simple?
observe a bit more in daily life .... was it just an tricky experiment or is it same with all the daily activities? ... going to the fridge, turn on TV, put on shoes, pressing "reply" to this post ........ ? any controller there? How is doing all this?
can just seeing that help unravel conditioning?
this question is for you. what about your beliefs around that? what has changed? what is same?
and what about beliefs around beliefs? Is the content of a belief true?
or is it just a thought that shows up with no one controlling it ?

Love Ve

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taylor
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:15 am

Re: Knowing

Postby taylor » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:27 pm

observe a bit more in daily life .... was it just an tricky experiment or is it same with all the daily activities? ... going to the fridge, turn on TV, put on shoes, pressing "reply" to this post ........ ? any controller there? How is doing all this?

"yes.... will keep observing in daily life,there is definitely no controller there ! no thing or noone can be found

"
can just seeing that help unravel conditioning?"

this question is for you. what about your beliefs around that? what has changed? what is same?
and what about beliefs around beliefs? Is the content of a belief true?
or is it just a thought that shows up with no one controlling it ?

Thanks for asking these questions...
yes there was a belief that seeing that noone is here might have been more dramatic hehe
nothing has changed ,everything is the same
beliefs are actually just thoughts as are the contents of a belief and like thoughts they just show up unannounced from nothing
Thanks again Ve... you are quick with responding
love taylor xx

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Verananda
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Knowing

Postby Verananda » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:39 pm

:-)

how should we proceed?

do you wan't to observe a bit in daily life ... looking if something else shows up?

or do you want to answer the 6 final questions .... it is a good opportunity to reflect different aspects and wee can see if all is clear?


Love Ve

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Verananda
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Knowing

Postby Verananda » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:41 pm

hey .... you tried the quote function!!!!!
try again ... you will get it! :-)

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taylor
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:15 am

Re: Knowing

Postby taylor » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:03 am

how should we proceed?

do you wan't to observe a bit in daily life ... looking if something else shows up?

or do you want to answer the 6 final questions .... it is a good opportunity to reflect different aspects and wee can see if all is clear?

"funny about the quote function ! the 6 questions would be good"
thank you Ve xxxx

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Verananda
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Knowing

Postby Verananda » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:23 am

here they are ...

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

looking forward to your answers :-)
love ve

User avatar
taylor
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:15 am

Re: Knowing

Postby taylor » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:02 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
no there is separate "self","me",I, at all and there never has been or could be !
[2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.
/quote]
the illusion of the separate self is constructed from believing thoughts about a "me"..." things happen to me "
really don't know when it started ..it would have begun in early childhood, learning from parents ,teachers etc to identify with the "i" word personally and time .This "i" morphs into a doer ,a chooser ,a thinker... having never learned that it would have all worked without a "person", but we fall under the illusion that there is an "i" who decides and controls everything
.This "i" has a terrible time having to run the world,fix everything,fighting what is...all phenomena is perceived through the eyes of the personal self .nothing is fresh, no questions are asked and there is no peace.Having to purport an illusion 24-7
is very taxing to the bodymind.
3) How does it feel to see this?
it is good to see the truth

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
there was mass confusion to clarity ..today seemed so less complicated!
Please report from the past few days.
will do
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
" watching the hand move without a person making it happen,it's quite miraculous really"
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
[quote"]there is no one making a decision there is just actioning"
intention ,free will,choice and control are constructs that the personal "i"owns .There is no one home to choose,control,
exercise free will or intend.there is just" is" ing
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
as for how it works .... can't answer
is there an answer?
c) What are you responsible for?
who "me"?ahahheh there is no me running the show.. the show just plays. noone to be responsible
d) Give examples from experience.
will answer this tomorrow
thanks Ve
love taylor

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Knowing

Postby Verananda » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:39 pm

d) Give examples from experience.
will answer this tomorrow
... and another opportunity to make friendship with the quote function! ;-)

User avatar
taylor
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:15 am

Re: Knowing

Postby taylor » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:13 am

d) Give examples from experience.
) What are you responsible for?
what is a responsibility ? An agreement to ensure certain duties are fulfilled at home and work etc
which boils down to measures for taking care of objects
once again, there is no "decider ,doer, no one to be responsible. There is just doing, caring, responding.
who is responsible for taking care of hairwashing today who decided ?
well after looking there was nobody to be found who was responsible for washing, drying, brushing, dressing
there was just experiencing, walking, driving,working, buying food, wondering about the answer to this question
worrying about lack of articulation, thinking about the "i" which likes to take credit for everything every second, learning a bit more about" quoting "on this :)
love taylorxx

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Knowing

Postby Verananda » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:36 am

hi taylor,


wonderful quotes! :-)

Lets elaborate here a bit .....
This "i" morphs into a doer ,a chooser ,a thinker... having never learned that it would have all worked without a "person", but we fall under the illusion that there is an "i" who decides and controls everything
Tell me how this is experienced just in direct experience?
What is this "morphs into"?
And what is this "we" that fall under the illusion ...?
.This "i" has a terrible time having to run the world,fix everything,fighting what is...all phenomena is perceived through the eyes of the personal self .nothing is fresh, no questions are asked and there is no peace.Having to purport an illusion 24-7
is very taxing to the bodymind.
again, Tell me how this is experienced just in direct experience? -->
How can this "I" have a terrible time?
What are these "eyes of the personal self".
Who or what is "Having to purport an illusion"?
And what is a "bodymimd"?

Answer all these questions just from direct experience - no mental explanations!!!

Love Ve


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