direct experience over intellectual understanding

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Free2K
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Free2K » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:25 pm

Hi Vivien,
K: There were many periods today of just sensory experience- but I can only ever acknowledge those periods after the fact because during them there is no one separate to “know”, there just is what’s happening.
V: This is it.
I repeat.
This is it.
This is seeing that there is no self to know anything.

So what else do you expect?
Do you expect that you can stay in this experience where no self appears to know anything?
Ok, so first off, as I’ve been sitting with your comment of “this is it” in regards to my description above, something has started to shift. It kind of feels like it’s halfway between an intellectual and direct understanding now. On the one hand, I see those periods of “flow” as states- something that comes and goes. And those periods can only be referred to after the fact, through thought. So there’s the questioning that how can the seeing of the no self be something that I’d have to refer back to? That doesn’t make sense. But on the other hand, through all our exploration of thought, I know that thought is actually a part of that “flow” as well- that I think “I’m out of the flow” once I’m referring to it, but in actuality thoughts are just IT too... the “I” in thoughts is just IT too. The thing is that I know this but I can’t seem to totally experientially see it yet. I know it has to percolate a bit more.

I wouldn’t expect to stay in the thoughtless experiencing because then how could this ever be known? It appears that it still has to be known through an aspect of thought even though thought is part of it too. That a knowing can somehow happen that there’s no one separate to know all this.

I think I want to sit more with this before I write down my assumptions (although my last comment might be an assumption?), because things are shifting and I don’t want to take the chance of going back into the conceptual “figure it out” mode right now. I’m going to continue looking at thoughts for a bit and the aspect of “WHO is there to KNOW this”...

Kelly

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Vivien
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:31 pm

Hi Kelly,

All right Kelly, then I don’t comment on this.
Stay with this, and let me know what happens.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Free2K
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Free2K » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:56 pm

Hi Vivien,

The simplicity of things seems more and more obvious but I still seem to be stuck in a blind spot! I see that when there is just experience- there isn’t even anything to be said about it because it just is what it is. Then thought comes in and gives the appearance of a knower, a doer... even of an “awareness”. But it’s still just thought. There’s no one to “get lost in thought” because there’s no knower or witness outside of thought- which I see even more clearly now, in acknowledging that when there’s just experience there’s no outside perspective that knows it.

In terms of expectations, I do feel like there is a way to “see” how things are, and then a shift in understanding would happen. That nothing would change but at the same time everything would be seen in a different light. I also think that this desperate seeking would ease up. I still can’t break the obsession of reading nonduality books and listening to talks because I still feel like I need something to push me over the edge. Many things you have said have made things “click” in certain ways and I’m still desperately seeking that- to see how things actually are in a direct, obvious, experienced way. But since there’s nothing outside of thought to know this, I guess there’s the thinking that my thoughts about it would shift. But how could thoughts know how it is since they’re a part of how it is?

Kelly

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Vivien
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:25 am

Hi Kelly,
The simplicity of things seems more and more obvious but I still seem to be stuck in a blind spot! I see that when there is just experience- there isn’t even anything to be said about it because it just is what it is. Then thought comes in and gives the appearance of a knower, a doer... even of an “awareness”. But it’s still just thought. There’s no one to “get lost in thought” because there’s no knower or witness outside of thought- which I see even more clearly now, in acknowledging that when there’s just experience there’s no outside perspective that knows it.
And what is the blind spot in this? I cannot see any blind spot here. But tell me if there is any.

You are expecting something BIG to happen and thus you are not accepting what is ACTUALLY happening.
In terms of expectations, I do feel like there is a way to “see” how things are, and then a shift in understanding would happen. That nothing would change but at the same time everything would be seen in a different light.
You are expecting that experience would change. As if you were transported into a parallel universe where everything is the same but at the same time everything would be seen in a different light.

But WHY would experience or the seeing of experience change, just because it’s RECOGNIZED that there is no self there? There has never ever been a self there, so WHY would experience or the seeing of experience change?

You are expecting something BIG. You are expecting that the perception of things would change to ‘see them how they are’.
And WHAT would see thing differently?
Is there a SEER or a YOU who could see things differently?
WHAT is it that could have this different experience of seeing things differently?
I also think that this desperate seeking would ease up. I still can’t break the obsession of reading nonduality books and listening to talks because I still feel like I need something to push me over the edge.
Kelly, we agreed at the beginning that you were going to STOP reading and listening to teachers.

This could be one of the main reasons that you are still seeking and not seeing no-self clearly.

Reading and listening to teachers are just INTELLECTUAL thing. Just more ideas. More expectations. More beliefs.

You have to completely stop this.


Can you promise me that you completely stop reading and listening to ANY teachers, and you focus ONLY on looking?
Many things you have said have made things “click” in certain ways and I’m still desperately seeking that- to see how things actually are in a direct, obvious, experienced way.
This very unrealistic expectation is your problem.

I repeat it.

You have a BELIEF how seeing through the self should be like. An idea. But this is just an unrealistic belief, which has NOTHING to do with the recognition of no-self.

So you hold this belief firmly, and then you compare what is ACTUALLY happening with this idea/belief/expectation, with the result that ‘this is NOT IT.’

Seeing through the self has NOTHING to do with ‘seeing how things actually are in a direct, obvious, experienced way’. NOTHING. Do you get it?

You are trying to CHANGE how things are.
You are trying to CHANGE your perception.

And in the meanwhile, you forget to look for the most important thing, to the ONE that WANTS this CHANGE.

Who/what would benefit if seeing things would change?
But since there’s nothing outside of thought to know this, I guess there’s the thinking that my thoughts about it would shift. But how could thoughts know how it is since they’re a part of how it is?
Exactly! You want different thoughts! And only a self could want different thoughts and experiences.

Who/what is concerned about what thoughts appear?
Whose problem is that?


Really look with each of these questions. Don’t just say that there is no self there, but ACTUALLY look with each of the questions.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Free2K
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Free2K » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:41 pm

Hi Vivien,
K: The simplicity of things seems more and more obvious but I still seem to be stuck in a blind spot! I see that when there is just experience- there isn’t even anything to be said about it because it just is what it is. Then thought comes in and gives the appearance of a knower, a doer... even of an “awareness”. But it’s still just thought. There’s no one to “get lost in thought” because there’s no knower or witness outside of thought- which I see even more clearly now, in acknowledging that when there’s just experience there’s no outside perspective that knows it.
V: And what is the blind spot in this? I cannot see any blind spot here. But tell me if there is any.
The blind spot is still within thought. Thoughts still go on about awareness, and “me”, and not seeing how this really is, and the need to keep seeking. If there’s no one to see through all that, or “unidentify” with thought, then it’ll all just keep appearing and being believed in the same way?
WHY would experience or the seeing of experience change, just because it’s RECOGNIZED that there is no self there? There has never ever been a self there, so WHY would experience or the seeing of experience change?
Thoughts still continue to recreate the appearance of a self constantly, so a self still feels so real.
And WHAT would see thing differently?
Is there a SEER or a YOU who could see things differently?
WHAT is it that could have this different experience of seeing things differently?
I guess there’s the expectation that thought would have some kind of understanding or clarity about this when it’s seen, instead of continuing on with all its usual games.
Can you promise me that you completely stop reading and listening to ANY teachers, and you focus ONLY on looking?
I have really, really been trying to avoid doing this and I somehow always fall back into it. My thoughts just completely still revolve around seeking and trying to see this clearly. But I will really do my best to stop and focus on looking whenever I feel the need to read things.
Seeing through the self has NOTHING to do with ‘seeing how things actually are in a direct, obvious, experienced way’. NOTHING. Do you get it?
I kind of get it, but not completely. Because it still has to be seen that there is no self, right? Over and over again, like you’ve said. But I always feel like I have to re-find the way to see through it somehow.
Who/what would benefit if seeing things would change?
Ah, I don’t know! I feel lost again :/

Kelly

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Vivien
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:22 am

Hi Kelly,
The blind spot is still within thought. Thoughts still go on about awareness, and “me”, and not seeing how this really is, and the need to keep seeking. If there’s no one to see through all that, or “unidentify” with thought, then it’ll all just keep appearing and being believed in the same way?
This is a good question, but you have to look for yourself.
So?
Thoughts still continue to recreate the appearance of a self constantly, so a self still feels so real.
“the self still feels so real” – So you say that the self FEELS real.
Please describe me in detail the FEELING of the self?
V: And WHAT would see thing differently?
Is there a SEER or a YOU who could see things differently?
WHAT is it that could have this different experience of seeing things differently?
K: I guess there’s the expectation that thought would have some kind of understanding or clarity about this when it’s seen, instead of continuing on with all its usual games.
Kelly, you did NOT LOOK to the direction I where I pointed with those questions. You missed the point.
The questions weren’t about GUESSING about the expectations. Not at all.

Please LOOK with each of them and reply to them one-by-one.

Really look. Never rely on the MEMORY of a previous looking. Always look AFRESH.

And WHAT would see thing differently?
Is there a SEER or a YOU who could see things differently?
WHAT is it that could have this different experience of seeing things differently?
V: Seeing through the self has NOTHING to do with ‘seeing how things actually are in a direct, obvious, experienced way’. NOTHING. Do you get it?
K: I kind of get it, but not completely. Because it still has to be seen that there is no self, right? Over and over again, like you’ve said.
The ONLY thing which perception will be different is the self.
Nothing else.
Everything else will stay the same.
V: Who/what would benefit if seeing things would change?
K: Ah, I don’t know! I feel lost again :/
Kelly, you didn’t look.

You are putting the attention AWAY from the seeming self, to opposite direction.
You have to turn the attention around to the ‘ONE’ that wants all of these.

Who/what would benefit if seeing things would change?


And you completely left out the last two questions. You are simply not looking.

You were just thinking and thinking how to get a better or different experience, and meanwhile you DIDN’T LOOK with any of the pointers I gave you.

Who/what is concerned about what thoughts appear?
Whose problem is that?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Free2K
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Free2K » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:22 am

Hi Vivien,
K: The blind spot is still within thought. Thoughts still go on about awareness, and “me”, and not seeing how this really is, and the need to keep seeking. If there’s no one to see through all that, or “unidentify” with thought, then it’ll all just keep appearing and being believed in the same way?
V: This is a good question, but you have to look for yourself.
So?

That’s what’s paradoxical about all this- the looking, the seeking, the seeing is still all part of what is known. Thoughts try to create endless angles and perspectives to “see how it is” but all that is still “how it is”. So there can’t even be identification with thoughts because what’s separate to identify? It’s just a thought appearing saying, “oh, I was just lost in thought for so long, I’m so bad at staying present with what is”. But like we keep coming back to, all that is is thoughts or sensory experience. When there’s just sensory experience there’s nothing apart from it to known it or reflect on it. When there’s just thoughts, there’s also nothing apart from the thought to know it or reflect on it, except other thoughts that appear to be doing that. I’m stuck in that space- the thoughts that keep talking about “how it is”. I know they’re just thoughts so I don’t know why I can’t SEE it that way.
“the self still feels so real” – So you say that the self FEELS real. Please describe me in detail the FEELING of the self?
It’s the thoughts that maintain that these sensations, sounds, smells, perspective, etc are mine because I’m perceiving them.
And WHAT would see thing differently?
Theres the belief that my thoughts would continue their drama but then other thoughts would “know” that they aren’t what’s really happening. Because thought content continues to appear as what’s happening.
Is there a SEER or a YOU who could see things differently?
There isn’t a me separate from thoughts, but thoughts could see things differently.
WHAT is it that could have this different experience of seeing things differently?
There’s nothing to have a perspective on all the thoughts, even though it continues to appear that thoughts can have perspective on thoughts... Because I still can’t let go of the fact that thoughts appear linear.
You have to turn the attention around to the ‘ONE’ that wants all of these.
Who/what would benefit if seeing things would change?
It’s just the belief that thoughts would get on board and see that they’re not so important.
Who/what is concerned about what thoughts appear?
Just other thoughts!
Whose problem is that?
The problem is only created in thoughts. But there is also no one separate from thoughts to stop believing that thought content is real.

Kelly

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Vivien
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:30 am

Hi Kelly,
Theres the belief that my thoughts would continue their drama but then other thoughts would “know” that they aren’t what’s really happening. Because thought content continues to appear as what’s happening.
There isn’t a me separate from thoughts, but thoughts could see things differently.
Ohh… so thought is some kind of entity that can see thing differently and then talk differently based on it’s different seeing?

You are making things way to complicated.

Whenever there is ANY appearance of a ‘me’, you immediately have to stop and ACTIVELY REACH for that ‘me’. Search for the FEELING of me. (hundred times a day)

Let me know how it goes.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Free2K
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Free2K » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:11 pm

Hi Vivien,

Maybe it’s best if I take a little break from this. I really really appreciate your persistence but I’ve been feeling pretty down lately about not seeing this when it’s apparently so obvious. I still can’t seem to drop the “trying so hard to get it” so maybe if I take a break things will ease up a little. I’ll write back soon...

Kelly

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Vivien
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:07 am

Hi Kelly,

All right. I will be here when you feel ready to continue :)

Have a nice day,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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