Fear decreasing

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:12 am

Hi Nameless,
V: So, where is this memory located EXACTLY?
N: I would say that the only place it could be is here...in that particular moment. I think the only place anything can be is, here.
This reply didn’t come from looking at AE, but from thinking about AE.
but something here wants to say that thoughts come from the mind, from the thinker, or from 'The Great Source." But none of that is AE.
What is it exactly that wants to say this? Is there anything saying this other than these thoughts?

What is the AE of mind?

What thinks? – look at AE very carefully

Is there such thing as ‘the Great Source’?
Or only thoughts ‘talk’ about it without any bases of reality (AE)?
For a few seconds it seemed like the observer was above and just outside of this body and the body was inside the observer, that was my experience. That isn't a location....i want to say the observer is, here, just, here.
When a sentence starts with “it seems like” or “it feels like” then it’s a sure sign that what will follow is just an analogy. Only the content of thoughts. Just an imagination.

We need proof. We need experiential proof.
like the observer was above and just outside of this body and the body was inside the observer
Please read your above comment carefully. These statements contradict themselves! If the body were indeed inside the observer, then the observer couldn’t be above the body.
like the observer was above and just outside of this body and the body was inside the observer, that was my experience.
How was this ACTUALLY experienced? By which of the 5 senses?
.i want to say the observer is, here, just, here.
How is it known EXACTLY that the ‘observer is just here’?
V: Where is it exactly? Locate it. [the observer]
N: It is right here
Then show me!

Take a cup or any object into your hands. And investigate if the cup can be experience in any other way then with the 5 senses. Can you?

Can anything be experience in any other way than with the 5 senses?

Look carefully. Don’t just think, but really try to experience outside the 5 senses. Can this be done?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:26 am

What is it exactly that wants to say this? Is there anything saying this other than these thoughts?
Upon closer examination and your pointing, Actual Experience is i can not locate anything or anyone that "wants to say this." And, in AE, it appears that the only thing saying thoughts, are thoughts. Not even, "saying," just thoughts.
What is the AE of mind?
Well, 'mind' is a word that has been defined by other words, but i've never actually seen, heard, felt "mind.' If mind is a flow of thoughts, AE of mind is just noticing thoughts, like i noticed color/image with an earlier exercise---not paying attention to the content of thought, just the thought itself.
What thinks? – look at AE very carefully
My first experience was, me. Seconds later the experience was thoughts...thoughts think themselves. Third experience was i am those thoughts, thoughts and me are the very same thing, no separation; this took less than 20 seconds. If my experience is correct, i still don't know what thinks because i don't know what thoughts are, nor do i know what i am.I will continue looking throughout the coming days and weeks.
Is there such thing as ‘the Great Source’?
i don't know!
Or only thoughts ‘talk’ about it without any bases of reality (AE)?
Once again, like every other answer i've given, you got me! I'm so glad i can laugh at myself; however, it does feel a little embarrassing sometimes to see how I've just taken what's been spoon fed to me without inquiring all of these years! I really am enjoying having you point out to me how blind and ignorant i am. :) And, I appreciate you being here to try and take the 'cataracts' out of my eyes so i can see Clearly.

How was this ACTUALLY experienced? By which of the 5 senses?
An image in the mind...a thought, paying particular attention to the content of a thought. imagination

.i want to say the observer is, here, just, here.
How is it known EXACTLY that the ‘observer is just here’?
Awareness, consciousness
And investigate if the cup can be experience in any other way then with the 5 senses. Can you?
No
Can anything be experience in any other way than with the 5 senses?
Not that I'm aware of, or can think of...wait, i'm not supposed to think here, just look....i can not see how anything can be experienced in any other way except using the 5 sense.
Look carefully. Don’t just think, but really try to experience outside the 5 senses. Can this be done?
Intuition, feeling level....sensation? Thought...how do i experience thought? image? I don't know, Vivien. I was going to say i need more time to look, but i don't think time is the thing i need most to be able to see what is apparently right here, but i can't see. What do i need to see what is right here? need to let go of? is it only fear that is in the way here?

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:16 am

Hi Nameless,

Could you please tell me how you do these exercises? Do you look just before or while replying or do you look throughout the day too?
Well, 'mind' is a word that has been defined by other words, but i've never actually seen, heard, felt "mind.' If mind is a flow of thoughts, AE of mind is just noticing thoughts, like i noticed color/image with an earlier exercise---not paying attention to the content of thought, just the thought itself.
Noticing thought is NOT the AE of ‘mind’, but the AE of thought only. Can you see this?

Is there such thing as ‘mind’? – don’t think, rather LOOK for it. Find it.
V: What thinks? – look at AE very carefully
N: My first experience was, me.
Saying that I am the one who thinks is NOT AE.

In order to this sentence be true, first:
- the ‘me’ has to be found
- and then it can be clearly seen that thoughts are done by this ‘me’.
Can you see this?

So, where is the ‘me’ EXACTLY that is supposedly doing the thinking?
Seconds later the experience was thoughts...thoughts think themselves.
This is also NOT coming from looking at AE. This is just the content of thoughts.

How is it actually experienced that thoughts think themselves?
Can this be experienced at all?
Third experience was i am those thoughts, thoughts and me are the very same thing, no separation; this took less than 20 seconds.
This is also NOT coming from looking at AE.
In order to this statement be true, the ‘me’ first has to be clearly found.
And then somehow this ‘me’ has to stop being a ‘me’ and somehow (maybe my magic :) become only a thought.

So where is the ‘I’ EXACTLY that is those thoughts? – don’t think, only LOOK for the ‘I’. Find it.
V: How was this [observer was above and outside the body] ACTUALLY experienced? By which of the 5 senses?
N: An image in the mind...a thought, paying particular attention to the content of a thought. Imagination
A mental image is NOT the AE of an ‘observer’, but the AE a mental image only. Can you see this?

So the ‘observer’ cannot be experienced at all. Only thoughts and mental images suggest this, without ANY proof whatsoever. Can you see this?

“An image in the mind” – What is the AE of a mind?
Is there such thing as mind?

V: .i want to say the observer is, here, just, here.
How is it known EXACTLY that the ‘observer is just here’?
N: Awareness, consciousness
You are not looking! You are just writing down the thoughts that arise.
You cannot take thoughts for granted! You have to LOOK if those thoughts are in correspondence with reality.
V: Look carefully. Don’t just think, but really try to experience outside the 5 senses. Can this be done?
N: Intuition, feeling level....sensation? Thought...how do i experience thought? image? I don't know, Vivien. I was going to say i need more time to look, but i don't think time is the thing i need most to be able to see what is apparently right here, but i can't see. What do i need to see what is right here? need to let go of? is it only fear that is in the way here?
Again, you didn’t look, you just wrote down the thoughts that appeared as a result of reading the question.
In your previous reply you stated:
V; Can anything be experience in any other way than with the 5 senses?
N: Not that I'm aware of, or can think of...wait, i'm not supposed to think here, just look....i can not see how anything can be experienced in any other way except using the 5 sense.
So here you state that experiencing cannot happen any other way than with the 5 senses. But in your next reply [the quote above this], you just ignored this comment that there is nothing outside of the 5 senses. You didn’t look.

What is the AE of intuition? Is a sound, image/color, taste, smell, sensation or thought?
Thought...how do i experience thought?
This question assumes that there is a ‘me’ or something that is experiencing the thought. But is there really?
Is there such thing as an experiencer?

Where is this experiencer EXACTLY? – SEARCH through the body from head to toe.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:31 pm

Could you please tell me how you do these exercises? Do you look just before or while replying or do you look throughout the day too?
I have done both.
Noticing thought is NOT the AE of ‘mind’, but the AE of thought only. Can you see this?
Yes
Is there such thing as ‘mind’? – don’t think, rather LOOK for it. Find it.
I can not find a mind. I only notice thoughts and sometimes gaps between thought.
Can you see this?
Yes. i can not actually find a 'me.' Seeing/noticing thought is happening, only. A me SEEMS to "appear" AFTER thought is seen, which is only another thought---the "I" thought, and that is also noticed.It's also noticed that this "I" wants to claim it, again, just another thought.
So, where is the ‘me’ EXACTLY that is supposedly doing the thinking?
It's "in" the thought. which is not real...what is in that thought is not real.
How is it actually experienced that thoughts think themselves?
It isn't. I was not LOOKING at AE; I was noticing thoughts.
Can this be experienced at all?
No because thoughts don't think themselves.
So where is the ‘I’ EXACTLY that is those thoughts? – don’t think, only LOOK for the ‘I’. Find it.
There is no "I" that IS those thoughts. "I" IS a thought that arises and disappears again and again.....
A mental image is NOT the AE of an ‘observer’, but the AE a mental image only. Can you see this?
Yes, I AM the noticing...noticing and the thing i notice are the same thing. Rather...since I can not locate a separate "I," "I" would have to say, Noticing and the thing noticed are the same thing...NO I there except as a thought that arises and disappears. I keep noticing your previous questions of where thoughts come from and where they go and I need to revisit these questions.
So the ‘observer’ cannot be experienced at all. Only thoughts and mental images suggest this, without ANY proof whatsoever. Can you see this?
Yes, i can see this when LOOKING closely, but when i'm all caught up in the stories and images/thoughts/paying the "experience" is MUCH different! NO MIND, I can NOT find the MIND. I have no proof that any mind exists at all.
An image in the mind” – What is the AE of a mind?
There is no AE of mind, because as far as I can see now, there is no mind. (Tears are welling up in the eyes...sensations in the body, noticing thoughts) wow...a direct experience that there really is NO mind! What the ?????
Is there such thing as mind?
Amazing that you ask that question now...it's like you knew if i answered the questions from LOOKING that this is what i would find as AE. ....more tears right now.
What is the AE of intuition? Is a sound, image/color, taste, smell, sensation or thought?
Thought, just thought, no substance, not real...a story about something.
This question assumes that there is a ‘me’ or something that is experiencing the thought. But is there really?
Is there such thing as an experiencer?
I can not find an experiencer, something different from the experience; noticing happens, but again, upon closer observation there is no observer...observing is just happening. But the second i take away that 'close looking' the observer feels real again..."I" appears and feels separate from everything, separate from the thought and experiences.
Where is this experiencer EXACTLY? – SEARCH through the body from head to toe.
(Fear is here right now) Vivien, I will get back to you on this one later today..i feel like i need to process what i've noticed, it feels like a lot. Thank you for helping me LOOK at AE, for helping me to slow down and pay closer attention. I will get back to this question tonight. i will try to be with this question throughout the day and sit down again to search the body for this experiencer. have to get ready for work, too.

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:57 am

Where is this experiencer EXACTLY? – SEARCH through the body from head to toe.
Vivien, when i sat down with this question tonight and began, it seemed like there was a separate seeker looking for the experiencer and observing sensations in the body, so my experience tonight was much like it mostly has been---with the exception of this morning. I know i'm not supposed to try and recreate any past experience, but that did occur a few times today and tonight. I was able to see, again, that "I" appears after some sensation---sound, physical sensation in the body etc, and that's the 'thing' that thinks/says it is experiencing (a thought can't think, so that makes no sense) but I still can not locate where an experiencer is, except to say that it's in a thought among many, many other thoughts. I can not tell you where a thought is, or again where they come from or where they go. I will continue to look....trying to not pay so much attention to thoughts, but more and more to AE.

Thank you for listening and responding,

Nameless1

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:12 am

Hi Nameless,
Yes. i can not actually find a 'me.' Seeing/noticing thought is happening, only. A me SEEMS to "appear" AFTER thought is seen, which is only another thought---the "I" thought, and that is also noticed.It's also noticed that this "I" wants to claim it, again, just another thought.
Nice looking!
I AM the noticing
How is it known EXACTLY that you are the one noticing thoughts?
What is it exactly that is doing the noticing of thoughts?
Is there REALLY a ‘noticer’?
(Tears are welling up in the eyes...sensations in the body, noticing thoughts) wow...a direct experience that there really is NO mind! What the ?????
Yes. There is no mind. Mind is just assumed by thoughts.
more tears right now
What are the tears about?
I can not find an experiencer, something different from the experience; noticing happens, but again, upon closer observation there is no observer...observing is just happening
Great looking!
V: Where is this experiencer EXACTLY? – SEARCH through the body from head to toe.
N: (Fear is here right now)
Is the fear still there?
What is it about?
I was able to see, again, that "I" appears after some sensation---sound, physical sensation in the body etc, and that's the 'thing' that thinks/says it is experiencing (a thought can't think, so that makes no sense) but I still can not locate where an experiencer is, except to say that it's in a thought among many, many other thoughts.
Good. So thoughts ‘talk’ about an experiencer. And the question is:
Is there REALLY an experiencer, (a real one, not just an assumed one) or just thoughts ‘talk’ rubbish?

What does generate thoughts?
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:09 am

Hi Vivien,
How is it known EXACTLY that you are the one noticing thoughts?
Well, since I don't know what "I" is, nor can I find an I when really looking, "I" don't know that I am the one noticing. I don't understand why it is so clear, at times, that there is NO person/I here, an "I" keeps re-appearing. How to stop that illusion, or stop identifying with it?
What is it exactly that is doing the noticing of thoughts?
I've been asking myself that question all day since insights from yesterday. Sitting here looking now, AE is: nothing is doing any noticing; noticing is just happening. But then thought comes in and asks: well what/who noticed that? .... AE for me here is a vacillation back and forth between an "I" noticing and just noticing happening.
Is there REALLY a ‘noticer’?
Apparently a 'noticer' appears when i pay attention to the contents of thoughts and disregard/forget to LOOK at AE.
What are the tears about?
Gratitude for clearer seeing, and a vague sense of sadness that was related to another vague thought/belief that things/people won't mean very much to me anymore. I think I base that on prior experiences i've had when meditating.
Is the fear still there?
What is it about?
Yes, some fear is still lurking about. Even though i can 'see' clearly that "I" don't exist, i have no control over this life, no decision maker here, something here still fears 'disappearing.' :) The level of fear is no where near what it's been in the past, thus, the name of the thread, but nonetheless, some fear is still present. i also think i fear not knowing what "my" experience of life will be after awakening.....but i don't know what my experience of life will be if i don't either so...??
Is there REALLY an experiencer, (a real one, not just an assumed one) or just thoughts ‘talk’ rubbish?
I can never find a REAL experiencer WHEN I LOOK, which brings me to the next question that's been rolling around "my" "awareness" all day: How can i stay in THAT place of LOOKING? Or, why can "I" see something so clearly, but then be right back where i started?
What does generate thoughts?
Thoughts just happen/appear, that is AE. But something here wants to know how that happens, but that is just another thought. No thing here wanting anything....just another thought---only 'inside' this particular thought is the content: "how does that happen," thoughts don't want anything.
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?
Thoughts do not belong to anything or anyone. There is nothing, no thing, and no one that owns thoughts.

Thanks for hanging in there with me, Vivien. I hope you're having fun. I am, sometimes, but "I" think 'I'd" rather be done----meaning not having to LOOK and seek anymore because it's all been seen through

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:40 am

Hi Nameless,

You did some nice looking.
I don't understand why it is so clear, at times, that there is NO person/I here, an "I" keeps re-appearing. How to stop that illusion, or stop identifying with it?
The illusion doesn’t need to be stopped. And it WON’T stop.
It’s enough to see that it’s just an illusion.

But it doesn’t mean that the illusion will never be believed or be taken as reality ever again. It WILL!

The illusion still can be taken as a reality (probably more often than one would expect), and the self could seem to be very real. But when it looked at closely, it’s clear that there is nothing there.
Gratitude for clearer seeing, and a vague sense of sadness that was related to another vague thought/belief that things/people won't mean very much to me anymore.
There is a misunderstanding here. People and things will still mean the same, however it can be seen that this meaning is just added a thought overlay. But this added overlay won’t go away. Everything will go on just as now.

Seeing no self is just a shift in perception, like with these images bellow. As if you were seeing only in one way for your whole life, and now there’s a shift, and you can see from a different perspective. But you can still see the original, old version too. From now on, you can switch back and forth between the two.

Image
Image
It’s similar when you’re watching a movie which is so enchanting that you completely forget that you’re in a movie theatre, sitting in a chair, watching images projected onto the screen. It totally seems like and feels like as if you’re in scenes of the movie together with the characters. And then suddenly, you ‘wake up’ from this illusion. But the movie will still go on. You just discover that the whole movie is just a fantasy. But the movie will go on, it won’t stop appearing. So there is only a perception shift. This is the same with seeing through the self.
i also think i fear not knowing what "my" experience of life will be after awakening.....
First, you won’t have an awakening, since there is NO YOU that could experience an awakening or awakening could happen TO.

Secondly, awakening is NOT a one-time event, but rather a gradual process. This process can last for the end of the organism. Seeing through the self is just the first step, so nothing major will happen. It’s just a shift in perception as with the images above. So there is nothing to fear about.
How can i stay in THAT place of LOOKING? Or, why can "I" see something so clearly, but then be right back where i started?
The point of this investigation is NOT to stay in a constant place of looking. That would be just a state, and we are not after states. States come and go, they cannot be sustained indefinitely.

Even after looking through the self, falling for the illusion can happen much more often than one might expect. It can last for even hours several times during the day. And why? It’s because every time an emotion is triggered (by some circumstances or because of certain thoughts coming up), the self is activated. So whenever there is frustration, wanting or not wanting something, expecting something, having anger, resentment, feeling hurt, disliking something / somebody, etc. the self is there immediately. Since all these emotions are on behalf of the self. And after seeing no-self, all these conditioned issues need to be worked through, otherwise whenever these emotions arise the self comes with them. Humans are very often triggered (many-many times a day) and those triggering reactions can last from minutes to hours or even day or longer, meaning that the self is there and believed to be real for minutes, hours or days while those triggered reactions are functioning.

Taking the self as real, is also a conditioned habit of thinking. It’s a habit of the ‘mind’. It’s the result of a life-long conditioning. But upon each looking it gets a little bit weaker and weaker.
but "I" think 'I'd" rather be done
There is NO YOU that could be done.
And seeing through the self is not the end, but just the beginning.

Please let me know what comes up after reading my comments.
Apparently a 'noticer' appears when i pay attention to the contents of thoughts and disregard/forget to LOOK at AE.
What is it exactly that is paying or not paying attention to the content of thoughts?
What is it exactly that is disregarding or forgetting to look at AE?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:27 am

Hi Vivien,

Thank you very much for attending to all of my questions. I appreciate all of the explanations! I lost everything i typed...I guess I had been sitting here too long, so starting over. sigh
Please let me know what comes up after reading my comments.
Feelings of disappointment come up. i wanted a better version of myself. It IS a comfort to hear that this 'self' will continue trying to make improvements because dream/illusion or no dream/illusion, it's important to this self to be kind, to not hurt self, others, or the Earth.
What is it exactly that is paying or not paying attention to the content of thoughts?
Originally had couple of paragraphs...thinking/typing 'outloud.' What it boiled down to was, Awareness.
What is it exactly that is disregarding or forgetting to look at AE?
Pure, impersonal awareness. Again, I had a lot typed out here, basically having a conversation with you, I would type a thought and then type your question: "What is it exactly that feels like....?" And it went on and on like that. Last thing i typed was: i feel like a kid with a bad case of adhd, or like i'm trying to hold onto a fist full of water. Vivien: "What is it exactly that feels like a kid with a bad case of adhd?" Nameless1: The body...the body feels sensations. Wait, that doesn't make much sense. how can the body feel? sensations are there, but i don't think the body FEELS it. Seems like Awareness notices sensations. And it notices all AE's. I'm really tired, and frustrated i lost everything i typed...there is a warning here that pointed that out before i even received a guide. I'm done for tonight; i did my best, twice. Cheerio!

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:02 am

Hi Nameless,
I lost everything i typed...I guess I had been sitting here too long, so starting over. sigh
When you sign in, there is a box called ‘Remember me’. If you tick that box when signing up, it won’t expire, so it won’t sign you off.
Seems like Awareness notices sensations. And it notices all AE's.
As I said you before, when a sentence starts with “it seems like” or “it feels like” then it’s a sure sign that what will follow is just an analogy. Only the content of thoughts. Just an imagination.

We need proof. We need experiential proof.

We will investigate the notion of awareness later.

What can a thought do?
Does a thought have volition?
Can it manipulate other thoughts or think new thoughts?


It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Let’s start to investigate the difference between the appearance of a thought, and what thought is about.
If you were in a desert, dying of thirst, could you quench your thirst just by thinking about water (thoughts), or would you need to drink ‘real’ water?

Let’s say I’m with you in the desert and offer you two options:
(1) In my left hand there is a piece of paper with the word ‘water’ written on it, and
(2) in my right hand there is a bottle of water.

Which one would you choose to quench your thirst, the label or the water?
So, can the label ‘water’, which is actual/direct experience (AE) of thought only, quench your thirst?

Labels are ‘real’ as appearing thoughts (as ‘containers’) but their ‘contents’, what the labels/thoughts are ABOUT are not ‘real’, not happening. Is this totally clear?


Thoughts can be looked at in 2 different ways:

- seeing the CONTENT of a thought, what is a thought ABOUT
- and only seeing the thought itself (as phenomenon taking place), as a ‘CONTAINER’

When a thought is seen only as a container, and the content of a thought (what it’s about) is being ignored, is what we call the actual experience of a thought. Do you see the difference?


Thoughts as arising thoughts (the containers) are ‘real’, but their contents (what they are ABOUT) are not. Like when you think about Dart Vader. There is an arising thought, it cannot be denied, but its content “Dart Vader” is not real. Sometimes thoughts point to something tangible, like chair, however a thought about a chair is not a chair. A thought about a chair is just a mental concept with an arising mental image of a ‘chair’ but that image is not ‘real’. However, as an arising image is there, it is ‘real’, but not its content (what it’s about).

Certain sensations can be felt in the body that is labelled such and such emotion, like ‘cheerful’. However, ‘cheerful’ is just a mental label on the felt sensation. So the felt sensation is ‘real’, the arising mental label, simply as arising label is ‘real’, but its content ‘cheerful’ is just an idea. Can you see this?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:54 am

Hi Vivien,

I ticked the box, Remember Me; thank you for the tip!
As I said you before, when a sentence starts with “it seems like” or “it feels like” then it’s a sure sign that what will follow is just an analogy. Only the content of thoughts. Just an imagination.
Bad choice of words on my part and noticed that after logging off. To me, that was my experience, just pure awareness, just pure seeing....no mental comments, feelings; that happened a few times...like those pictures you sent, it would go back and forth. But, yes, will follow your direction and talk about awareness later. I trust the process.
What can a thought do?
Nothing but appear, but it doesn't actually DO that, it has no volition of its own.
[
quote]Does a thought have volition?[/quote] :) no, none
Can it manipulate other thoughts or think new thoughts?
Absolutely not
Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
Thoughts are seen, sometimes there's another thought that says they're related and then it's noticed that a thought "says," 'they're not related.' When looking carefully, it is seen that thoughts do not take content from a previous thought to generate the next thought, that's impossible, thoughts have no volition. i want to say that thoughts are separate from each other, but the experience that was had a few days ago says different......looking some more, it is seen clearly how some thoughts strengthen the sense of a separate self....same thoughts over and over; some of those thoughts are decades old, some months old. It is also seen that thoughts are not different...ONLY the content of thought is different.
Which one would you choose to quench your thirst, the label or the water?
the water
So, can the label ‘water’, which is actual/direct experience (AE) of thought only, quench your thirst?
No, a label/an actual/direct experience of THOUGHT ONLY can not give AE or true knowledge of what the label is pointing to.
Labels are ‘real’ as appearing thoughts (as ‘containers’) but their ‘contents’, what the labels/thoughts are ABOUT are not ‘real’, not happening. Is this totally clear?
I'm not sure if I'm totally clear about this, and I want to be, need to be. I get that words/labels are a group of symbols arranged in a particular order to identify an image/object...make communication possible and do not 'equal' the thing the word is pointing to. Are you saying thought is the container and labels are the contents of a thought? thoughts are 'real' because we can have an AE of them, but the contents are not real? my mind wants to ask about memories...even though a memory of an even is not the AE of it, does the content of the thought--memorey of something that 'did' occur, that is not real either? Like having a dream or nightmare during sleep...there's a memory of it, but it never actually happened? because words are not real/the contents of thoughts are not real, NONE of life is real? Real in the sense that we experience it?
When a thought is seen only as a container, and the content of a thought (what it’s about) is being ignored, is what we call the actual experience of a thought. Do you see the difference?
Intellectually I think i get what you're saying, but i've been trying to have the AE of it for days now. More and more i find 'myself' labeling thought as thought, but i can only ignore the content after the content is seen. Normal?
Can you see this?
Yes, i can see that felt sensation in the body is 'real,' that arising mental labels are 'real,' but that the labels themselves are not real.

Thank you for helping me look more closely. As frustrating as it can feel sometimes while looking, and 'trying' to look, i feel very fortunate to have this guidance. I feel gratitude for you, and all who've done the work that helps the 'rest of us.' I look forward to your responses.

Nameless1

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:02 am

Hi Nameless,
To me, that was my experience, just pure awareness, just pure seeing....no mental comments, feelings; that happened a few times..
There is NO experience of pure awareness. This is just an illusion.
Actually, the illusion of awareness is the basis of the belief in the self.

We will investigate this thoroughly later.
It is also seen that thoughts are not different...ONLY the content of thought is different.
Great.
Are you saying thought is the container and labels are the contents of a thought?
The words ‘thought’ and ‘label’ are interchangeable. A label is just a thought.
So the label is NOT the content of the thought, but rather label = thought.
thoughts are 'real' because we can have an AE of them, but the contents are not real?
Yes.
my mind wants to ask about memories...even though a memory of an even is not the AE of it, does the content of the thought--memorey of something that 'did' occur, that is not real either?
Yes, exactly.

Please write me some examples that come up during the day, showing the difference between a thought as appearance (phenomenon = container) and what the thought is about (its content).
Like having a dream or nightmare during sleep...there's a memory of it, but it never actually happened? because words are not real/the contents of thoughts are not real, NONE of life is real? Real in the sense that we experience it?
The memory of the last night dream is nothing else than a thought.
Memory is nothing else than a thought, and just other thoughts say that this thought is different, since it’s a memory.

We will look at memory when we will investigate time.
More and more i find 'myself' labeling thought as thought, but i can only ignore the content after the content is seen. Normal?
Yes. But is there a thought (container) without a content?
i feel very fortunate to have this guidance. I feel gratitude for you, and all who've done the work that helps the 'rest of us
You’re welcome :)

Let’s say there is a sensation present. The sensation itself.
Then a thought label it as ‘sensation’.
Now, the thought label ‘sensation’ is real as an arising thought (as a ‘container), it’s there but the ‘content’ (sensation) is not there. The content of the label cannot be felt. It only POINTS TO the actual sensation itself.

So although certain thoughts POINT TO AE, still the content of those labels are still not ‘real’, not happening, since the content of the label ‘sensation’ cannot be felt/experienced. This label can be experienced only as a thought.
Can you see the difference?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:43 pm

There is NO experience of pure awareness. This is just an illusion.
Actually, the illusion of awareness is the basis of the belief in the self.
I like it when you stop me in my tracks and get straight to the point! :) Humbling and enlightening, it's exactly what's needed here.
my mind wants to ask about memories...even though a memory of an even is not the AE of it, does the content of the thought--memorey of something that 'did' occur, that is not real either?
After I had a direct experience, that shook me a bit, that there is no mind, (and no separate "I") here is the mention of "my mind." Wondering how forgetting happens like that. Forgetting of something SO surprising, so eye opening.

Please write me some examples that come up during the day, showing the difference between a thought as appearance (phenomenon = container) and what the thought is about (its content). Image appears,(container) specific face---content. Talking is noticed ("in the mind,") which is the container, the content was: Should i take this rescue dog home? Container: Talking (in the 'mind') is noticed; content: I need to buy a new charger for my phone.
But is there a thought (container) without a content?
No. They are the same thing, one thing, one movement.
Can you see the difference?
Yes, this is seen clearly.

...this feeling of getting 'lost,' .....let me post this first; forgetting to tick the 'remember me' button happened

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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:12 pm

Hi Vivien,

Fumbling of words will probably happen here because there is so much confusion here, not seeing clearly. (trying not to use the word, "I" because AE's of there being no separate entity, have been seen numerous times. There is noticing of thoughts that say: it might be helpful to not forget that if a habit is made to stop the use of the word). Anyway, this sense of getting lost happens, for a long time now. Getting lost in different ways that appear to feel differently from one another. One example is when at work and i'm ....there seem to be real focus and "I"m" not there, don't feel an ego and the words that flow from this body appear to be exactly what's needed and delivered in kind and compassionate ways; the separate/false sense of self likes...OH, the thoughts say it is liked when there is that open, easy, flowing sort of thing occurring. Now at other times, getting lost in thought is frustrating now because there is a belief that "I" should be doing that less and less as time goes on, belief/thought is: "I'm" not conscious enough, failing again etc. Other times, feeling lost seems like when doing something such as working out in the yard or garden, "I'm" finished before 'i' know it...like i wasn't really present, i missed the whole thing. Other times i can feel lost in something and lose track of time b/c of enjoyment...not sure how much of 'me' is there in many of those times. Does this make any sense to you? Asking the question right now: What gets lost? Just the sense of a separate self...someitmes. Sometimes time seems to have gotten 'lost.' Thought: I want to get better at paying attention to everything.
Noticing that this looking tires me out....that's the thought, different than the sensations that are actually in the body right now.

Thank you for listening, Vivien.

Nameless1

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:08 am

Hi Nameless,
(trying not to use the word, "I" because AE's of there being no separate entity, have been seen numerous times….it might be helpful to not forget that if a habit is made to stop the use of the word)
Avoiding using the word ‘I’ won’t help if in the moment the self is taken as real. It doesn’t matter if in the past or in just the previous moment the self has seen through, if in this moment the ‘I’ is taken as real, then it seems real. So don’t try to avoid using the word ‘I’ when it feels like or seems like that there is an ‘I’. Avoid using ONLY when it’s clearly seen in the moment that there is no ‘I’.

If you avoid using the word ‘I’ when it’s believed to be there, then you are giving me a wrong impression, and I will assume that you can clearly see something when you don’t.

With looking, you ALWAYS have to LOOK AFRESH and NEVER RELY ON MEMORY of previous looking. Why? Because if you rely on the memory of a previous looking in a form of a thought: “I know there is no self” without actually looking afresh for a self, then in that moment the no-self is just a belief. So every time it seems like or feels like as if there were a self, but you just remind yourself with the thought “there is no self”, then you just covering up one belief (the seemingly perceived self) with another belief (there is no self).

So every time I ask a question, you always have to look afresh, to see it again and again what is being pointed it.
It’s the looking and looking and looking and not finding that brings about the realization.
don't feel an ego
Ego as such can never be felt.

And btw, what is that could feel the presence or the absence of the ego?
the words that flow from this body appear to be exactly what's needed and delivered in kind and compassionate ways;
Seeing through the self has NOTHING to do with being kind or compassionate. Seeing through the self is not about self-improvement. Seeing through the self is not about being more kind or compassionate. This might happen, but expecting this or measuring the current experience to the presence or the absence of kindness or compassion is quite misleading.
the thoughts say it is liked when there is that open, easy, flowing sort of thing occurring.
When this thought appeared, was it clearly seen that this is just the content of a thought, or the content was believed and you just try to avoid using the word ‘I’?
Asking the question right now: What gets lost? Just the sense of a separate self...someitmes
This reply did NOT come from LOOKING. It’s just an intellectual explanation.
The sense of self cannot be lost. The sense of self is a sensation. A sensation cannot be lost.

So find the thing that is being lost. Where is it? What is it? – look and look and look
getting lost in thought is frustrating
What is it exactly that is lost in thought?
What is it that could be or not be lost in thoughts?

And frustrating for what exactly?
now because there is a belief that "I" should be doing that less and less as time goes on,
I assume that this I in the above sentence feels quite real, right?

When thoughts or believes like the above appear, LOOK for the ‘I’ that should be doing less and less? So where is this I that should do this less and less? – find it
belief/thought is: "I'm" not conscious enough, failing again etc.
Again, trying to pretend that there is no ‘I’ when it clearly feels like that there is an I, won’t help.
Rather, when the thought appears “I am not conscious enough” then immediately start to search for the ‘I’ that is not conscious enough. Look and look and look again and again and again, hundreds of times a day.

What is it that is failing?
like i wasn't really present, i missed the whole thing.
What is it exactly that wasn’t present?
What is it exactly that missed the whole thing?
Thought: I want to get better at paying attention to everything.
So YOU, Nameless, you want to get better at paying attention to everything.
Do you see that this wanting is on behalf of YOU?
That the separate self thinks and wants to be better?


All this wanting is about YOU. So rather trying to pretend that this ‘I’ doesn’t exist (based on memory), rather look again and again, if it is there right here right now.

Since if the thought appears on behalf of the self “I want to get better…” than it means that the self is seemingly present right now. So you have to find it right now, and not just rely on a memory.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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