Not sure if I have crossed the gate

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Zazen01
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby Zazen01 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:19 pm

Hi Kay,

Checking in, heres my responses to:
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.
Sitting on couch meditating: sounds/ emotion-sensations
Washing hands: sensations/ color/ sounds/ images /lost in thought- thought
Reading a Twitter: image/ color/ sensation-emotion
Reading email: image/ thoughts/ sensations-emotion
Watching lady at store: image/ color/ thoughts/ sensations
Going out of house and walking to street: images/ sounds/ sensations
Driving around in car: images/ thoughts/ sensation-emotion(fear)
Working on PC: image-tought/ sensation-fear

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Zazen01
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby Zazen01 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:57 pm

Is there ‘something there’, or is it simply AE of sensation? Does the sensation suggest in any way that there is something there?
Good one! of course, thought labels it as something there, but per AE, its just sensation...
Without thought, how is it known that there is intensity? What is it exactly that suggests the sensation has intensity?
Thought puts the label of intensity...other than that, its just a sensation
Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘fear’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?
Neutral sensation, undefined...just a sensation...
Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in your chest (labelled ‘fear’)…what is the difference between them?
They are both sensations, but one seems more bearable than the other one....but, I can see that its thought saying that lol.
Thought would say one is a little more ‘intense’, but apart from that – any difference?
No difference, both sensations... and yes, thought labels one more bearable than the other one.
Without thought, how is it known that the sensation is uncomfortable?
Its not known...
Sensation is actual experience…it is what IS..it it experience/THIS appearing exactly as it is. What exactly is it that needs the sensation to go away?
Its nothing, I find nothing there that wants it to go away... again, its thought labeling that.
Without thought saying it is uncomfortable….how could it possibly be known that the sensation is uncomfortable? Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is uncomfortable, or that it feels uncomfortable? Or is it a thought that suggests the sensation is uncomfortable?
Lo, its thought! Sensation is sensation...
Exactly and can you find anyone/anything that is actually feeling the sensation?
No
Where does the sensation end and the knowing of it begin?
There is no border like that, its like simultaneous, sensation/knowing, by no one...
So what is actually known is label + sensation + colour + thoughts. Is a panic attack actually known?
No, its not known... what is known is color/ thought/ sensation.... label of panick atack is another thought...

----

On a separate note, things I've been contemplating.

1

If I 'loose' myself in experience, then suddenly 'wake up' and come back to beingness (present moment), what is the AE of that, of being lost in daydreaming?....

I know a thought comes after, "Oh, I lost myself in thought, I cant be present, its frustating," etc etc.

2

I understand emotions, the AE of them are sensations... things you feel somewhere, right? Some emotions/sensations are easier to feel... some not. Yesterday I had a thought (memory?) and then came guilt... what is AE of guilt?

And, is a mental image and memories considered for AE just thoughts?

Thanks Kay for your help, God bless.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:36 am

Hi Z...I will respond to your last post when you answer the other questions I asked you in my last post. That way we don't continue having split posts.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Zazen01
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby Zazen01 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:44 pm

Hi Kay,
I did answer to all of your questions, see post Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:57 pm.
Thank you.

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Zazen01
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby Zazen01 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:46 pm

I also answered on this post Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:19 pm.
Thanks.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:44 am

Hi Z,

It seems the forum is doing its own thing at the moment! Your responses to the other questions did not show up at the time of my writing my post!
Sitting on couch meditating: sounds/ emotion-sensations
Washing hands: sensations/ color/ sounds/ images /lost in thought- thought
Reading a Twitter: image/ color/ sensation-emotion
Reading email: image/ thoughts/ sensations-emotion
Watching lady at store: image/ color/ thoughts/ sensations
Going out of house and walking to street: images/ sounds/ sensations
Driving around in car: images/ thoughts/ sensation-emotion(fear)
Working on PC: image-tought/ sensation-fear
You have written ‘sensation-emotion’ several times. Can you see that the label ‘emotion’ is AE of thought and not AE of sensation? Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is an emotion or that it is fear?
Is there ‘something there’, or is it simply AE of sensation? Does the sensation suggest in any way that there is something there?
Good one! of course, thought labels it as something there, but per AE, its just sensation...
Yes, exactly. Without thought, a sensation is simply a sensation.
Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in your chest (labelled ‘fear’)…what is the difference between them?
They are both sensations, but one seems more bearable than the other one....but, I can see that its thought saying that lol.
Great observation. You can see how thought overlays AE with stories. There is just this moment with whatever is appearing (ie actual experience)...the rest is thought
Without thought, how is it known that the sensation is uncomfortable?
Its not known...
Yes. So these ‘findings’ are important, so that when emotions appear, you can break them down into AE and you can allow the sensations to be without wanting anything to be different, because it is only thought that says sensations are uncomfortable, intense, unbearable etc.
Sensation is actual experience…it is what IS..it it experience/THIS appearing exactly as it is. What exactly is it that needs the sensation to go away?
Its nothing, I find nothing there that wants it to go away... again, its thought labeling that.
Exactly. It is only a thought. Are you the thinker of thought? Is there a you that can control what thoughts appear and when? If not, then you cannot change the stories that are appearing, however you can just learn to observe them without going down the rabbit hole with them.
Where does the sensation end and the knowing of it begin?
There is no border like that, its like simultaneous, sensation/knowing, by no one...
Experience is self-aware. It doesn’t need a thought to know that it IS.
On a separate note, things I've been contemplating.

If I 'loose' myself in experience, then suddenly 'wake up' and come back to beingness (present moment), what is the AE of that, of being lost in daydreaming?....
First, there would have to be a ‘you’ who is lost in daydreaming. Can you find anyone/anything that is 'lost in daydreaming'?
Second, what does ‘being lost in daydreaming’ point to? Does it point to colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought?

I know a thought comes after, "Oh, I lost myself in thought, I cant be present, its frustating," etc etc.
There is only ever the ‘present’ moment…the herenow. Where else could there be? It is only thought that says you have left the present moment!
I understand emotions, the AE of them are sensations... things you feel somewhere, right? Some emotions/sensations are easier to feel... some not. Yesterday I had a thought (memory?) and then came guilt... what is AE of guilt?

You tell me what the AE of guilt is. That is why I gave you the exercise of breaking down activities and emotions, so that you start to become aware of AE. I want you to LOOK at it carefully and tell me what it is.

And, is a mental image and memories considered for AE just thoughts?
What is the AE of ‘memory”? What does it point to exactly? Does it point to colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought? And what is it exactly that would have ‘memories’?

Okay, here is an exercise which points out the difference between actual experience and content of thought. Thoughts either point to AE or they point to thoughts about thought. Thought, in and of itself, does not contain any experience, otherwise you would be able to taste the word ‘sweet’ and feel the word ‘hot’ and hear thunder when the word ‘thunder’ appeared!

There are two types of thoughts:
#1 Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
#2 Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just a mental image of a cup?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?


Now let’s look at the word thought “here is a cup”….

Can a 'real' cup be found in the thought itself?

"Here is a cup" is the thought; the ensuing thoughts of what a cup is and does, what it is made from etc are the content of that thought. What do those thoughts point to exactly? Do they point to colour, taste, smell, sensation or sound? Or do they simply point to actual experience of thought and thought only?

So thoughts and mental images are actual experience only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about, what they are pointing to (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Zazen01
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby Zazen01 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:48 pm

Hi Kay, thanks for answering...

I answered most of your questions/comments, will do the exercise at the end and include everything in one reply, thanks.

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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby Zazen01 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:47 pm

Hi Kay, thanks for answering...
You have written ‘sensation-emotion’ several times. Can you see that the label ‘emotion’ is AE of thought and not AE of sensation?
Yes, I see that now, saying emotion is a label of thought, but keeping in that same idea.... can we say that 'sensation' is also a label? Why not say elephant? or house?....
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is an emotion or that it is fear?
No, its doesnt suggest anything! lol...thanks.
Yes, exactly. Without thought, a sensation is simply a sensation.
Now I ask you, what is a sensation?... Ive been contemplating that... all these things are labels too... they dont express the reality 100%.... the truth would just beingness.

Code: Select all

Great observation. You can see how thought overlays AE with stories. There is just this moment with whatever is appearing (ie actual experience)...the rest is thought
We could say nothing is appearing, only beingness no? the rest would be labels even...
Yes. So these ‘findings’ are important, so that when emotions appear, you can break them down into AE and you can allow the sensations to be without wanting anything to be different, because it is only thought that says sensations are uncomfortable, intense, unbearable etc.
Thank you :)
First, there would have to be a ‘you’ who is lost in daydreaming. Can you find anyone/anything that is 'lost in daydreaming'?
Nobody... but Im not conscious of myself also during the daydream, just immersed in whatever the daydream is. But whos immersed right?... so theres just daydreaming, and the AE of that would be images-thoughts.
Second, what does ‘being lost in daydreaming’ point to? Does it point to colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought?
Thought.
You tell me what the AE of guilt is. That is why I gave you the exercise of breaking down activities and emotions, so that you start to become aware of AE. I want you to LOOK at it carefully and tell me what it is.
Yes, guilt is a sensation.... not a common one, and thats why is more difficult to pinpoint (yes, this is thought saying it lol!)... other emotions area easier to identify (again, thought here labeling and explaining lol)
What is the AE of ‘memory”? What does it point to exactly? Does it point to colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought? And what is it exactly that would have ‘memories’?
The AE of memory, points to thought, but sometimes its mixed with a 'mental image'.... what are the AE of mental images? thought-image?...
So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just a mental image of a cup?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?
No real cup, only a mental image.... the content not real... only a thought. But heres something I've been pondering. We dont go about life ignoring contents of thoughts, in reality a lot of times its important, because you remember things to do, etc. So content of thoughts are the story of the character no?, so for him its important to follow trough on those content sometimes? I understand most of the time, thoughts are just stories of what ifs... imaginations, things we worry that never happen.... but still.
"Here is a cup" is the thought; the ensuing thoughts of what a cup is and does, what it is made from etc are the content of that thought. What do those thoughts point to exactly? Do they point to colour, taste, smell, sensation or sound? Or do they simply point to actual experience of thought and thought only?
They point as AE of the thought, just a story that develops after the initial thought. One thought on top of the other.
So thoughts and mental images are actual experience only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about, what they are pointing to (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?
Yes! Thank you.... the AE of thought is where the 'fantasy' starts no?... only 'real' (not even that, but for sake of a conversation) would be the thought or mental image.... I see this as first theres a thought, then that one has a chain connected, that will bring a story on eventually if theres no awareness of it being just a thought.... but again K, sometimes these mental rumiations, even fantasy's, lead to doing something important in life... planning something, figuring out a problem.... all those scenarios would be fantasy land, but necessary no?... how does one reconcile this with these non-dual conversations?
Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.
Hi Kay! Ive waited a few days to check back in with you because I wanted to give this exercise time. I found this exercise really interesting and have implemented in my daily practice... It has helped me to 'detach' from the fantasy of thought, content.... the part that becomes a story. ts really powerful, have to say. So answering to your question, only AE is the thought, the content is the imagination/fantasy what if part, the story part. Sometimes I guess these ruminations are necessary like I mentioned before, to plan things or analyze a problem, so that fantasy part could become a reality no? If it serves to resolve something, or figure out something.... but overall, its helps to detach and 'be here now'. So thank you for this one. This has been a big problem of mine, these daydreams or ruminations, sometimes like a torment, so I plan to continue this one exercise.

Thank you.

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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:41 am

Hi Z,
You have written ‘sensation-emotion’ several times. Can you see that the label ‘emotion’ is AE of thought and not AE of sensation?
Yes, I see that now, saying emotion is a label of thought, but keeping in that same idea.... can we say that 'sensation' is also a label? Why not say elephant? or house?....
Yes, ‘sensation’ is also a label, however it points to what IS ie experience/THIS, and we do need some sort of words to point, so that you get what is being pointed at. Thoughts either point to AE or they point to thoughts about thought. If you ignore/drop the label ‘sensation’…then all there is, is THIS/experience, appearing exactly as it is. Words are like thorns that are used to remove other thorns. When those other thorns have been removed…then the words can be removed to.
Yes, exactly. Without thought, a sensation is simply a sensation.
Now I ask you, what is a sensation?... Ive been contemplating that... all these things are labels too... they dont express the reality 100%.... the truth would just beingness.
Exactly…THIS/experience is indescribable, so words can never describe it or know it. THIS is self aware and doesn’t need words to know itself. It is impossible to describe the sensation labelled as ‘fear’, or to describe the colour red, or the smell ‘toast’ or the taste ‘pear’ or the sound ‘wind blowing’, for example.
Great observation. You can see how thought overlays AE with stories. There is just this moment with whatever is appearing (ie actual experience)...the rest is thought
We could say nothing is appearing, only beingness no? the rest would be labels even...
Yes. As I said above….thought either points to AE (THIS) or is point to thoughts about thought. Sound AND smell AND thought AND sensation AND colour AND taste = separation. There is no AND. There is soundsmellthoughtsensationcolourtaste which is synonymous with words used to name what IS ie THIS/experience/knowing/awareness etc.
First, there would have to be a ‘you’ who is lost in daydreaming. Can you find anyone/anything that is 'lost in daydreaming'?
Nobody... but Im not conscious of myself also during the daydream, just immersed in whatever the daydream is. But whos immersed right?... so theres just daydreaming, and the AE of that would be images-thoughts.
Yes, goes to show that there really isn’t a separate self! It is only when there is a ‘coming back’ from daydreaming that thoughts appear saying “I was daydreaming”. The “I” thought takes ownership of what was happening even when there is no “I” doing anything as everything simply happens.
You tell me what the AE of guilt is. That is why I gave you the exercise of breaking down activities and emotions, so that you start to become aware of AE. I want you to LOOK at it carefully and tell me what it is.
Yes, guilt is a sensation.... not a common one, and thats why is more difficult to pinpoint (yes, this is thought saying it lol!)... other emotions area easier to identify (again, thought here labeling and explaining lol)
The label ‘guilt’ is AE of thought and not AE of guilt
Sensation labelled ‘guilt’ is AE of sensation and not AE of guilt
Image labelled as ‘me/body’ is AE of colour and not AE of a guilty person
Thoughts ABOUT guilt ie what it means, the story arising that SEEMS to create guilt etc are AE of thought and not AE of guilt

So what is known is label/thought + sensation + colour, however, is guilt actually known?
What is the AE of ‘memory”? What does it point to exactly? Does it point to colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought? And what is it exactly that would have ‘memories’?
The AE of memory, points to thought, but sometimes its mixed with a 'mental image'.... what are the AE of mental images? thought-image?...
Yes…mental images are thoughts. They are thoughts about images. Just like sometimes you hear a song on the radio on your way to work or while you are cooking or doing something, and that song can stay with you all day. The song seems to play over and over again. All the intricate details are there. All the lyrics, all the notes in the guitar solo are as clear as when it was playing out of the car speakers. But really there is no music playing - no one singing, and no guitarist. It's just thought about sound.
Is there a ‘real’ cup or just a mental image of a cup?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?
No real cup, only a mental image.... the content not real... only a thought. But heres something I've been pondering. We dont go about life ignoring contents of thoughts, in reality a lot of times its important, because you remember things to do, etc. So content of thoughts are the story of the character no?, so for him its important to follow trough on those content sometimes? I understand most of the time, thoughts are just stories of what ifs... imaginations, things we worry that never happen.... but still.
Yes, I suppose it sounds plausible…if only there was a ‘you’ who was the thinker, feeler, say and doer. But you are not. And it would also be plausible if thoughts were the actual catalyst for doing…but they are not. We will explore this shortly.
So thoughts and mental images are actual experience only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about, what they are pointing to (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?
Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.
Hi Kay! Ive waited a few days to check back in with you because I wanted to give this exercise time. I found this exercise really interesting and have implemented in my daily practice... It has helped me to 'detach' from the fantasy of thought, content.... the part that becomes a story. ts really powerful, have to say. So answering to your question, only AE is the thought, the content is the imagination/fantasy what if part, the story part. Sometimes I guess these ruminations are necessary like I mentioned before, to plan things or analyze a problem, so that fantasy part could become a reality no? If it serves to resolve something, or figure out something.... but overall, its helps to detach and 'be here now'. So thank you for this one. This has been a big problem of mine, these daydreams or ruminations, sometimes like a torment, so I plan to continue this one exercise.
Great observing and thank you for being so diligent in doing the exercise! There is no Zazenself who is living and planning life or who is doing things….including thinking. There have NEVER ever been a separate self…not even one who is reading this. You cannot be a separate self some of the time and not a separate self at other times….just like a woman is either pregnant or she isn’t. So you will need some patience to see this. This exploration is a step by step exploration to unlearn everything you think you know. It is about deconstructing the idea of being a separate self. Your questions will be answered as we move through this exploration.

Okay, so keep breaking down activities, objects and emotions into AE for several more days. The clearer you are about AE and thoughts about AE the better it is for you.

Now we move on to look at the nature of thought. Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close the eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

Looking for the gap is a way to slow the thoughts, as the objective of this exercise is to observe each and every thought as it arises and subsides.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts.
Looking how they come and go.
And observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.
Let me know how you go.


Could a thinker of thought be found between the gaps or at any time?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Zazen01
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby Zazen01 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:28 pm

Hi Kay, never got a email notification about this reply! Anyways, glad to be here with you again.
First, there would have to be a ‘you’ who is lost in daydreaming. Can you find anyone/anything that is 'lost in daydreaming'?
Nobody... but Im not conscious of myself also during the daydream, just immersed in whatever the daydream is. But whos immersed right?... so theres just daydreaming, and the AE of that would be images-thoughts.

Yes, goes to show that there really isn’t a separate self! It is only when there is a ‘coming back’ from daydreaming that thoughts appear saying “I was daydreaming”. The “I” thought takes ownership of what was happening even when there is no “I” doing anything as everything simply happens.
Lol, this is really something... so the I comes in the picture and takes ownership of something that he wasnt involved with.... this can be said of all creative doings no? like being a painter or writer. The I gets ownership of something that it didnt write or paint. Then it has the nerve to say "Im blocked, I cant write", lol....it never wrote anything!
So what is known is label/thought + sensation + colour, however, is guilt actually known?
No.... and a comment about color, can it also being known as forms or images? you dont really see just a color, you see forms no?
Yes…mental images are thoughts. They are thoughts about images. Just like sometimes you hear a song on the radio on your way to work or while you are cooking or doing something, and that song can stay with you all day. The song seems to play over and over again. All the intricate details are there. All the lyrics, all the notes in the guitar solo are as clear as when it was playing out of the car speakers. But really there is no music playing - no one singing, and no guitarist. It's just thought about sound.
Is
Thanks, that cleared up a question I had.

Ill answer the rest of your post, with the exercise, after a few days of noticing thoughts.

Thanks Kay, god bless.

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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:34 am

Hey Z,

I will wait for your answers to the thought exercise before I respond.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Zazen01
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby Zazen01 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:15 pm

Hi Kay, im back reporting on my findings.
Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.
Let me know how you go.

Could a thinker of thought be found between the gaps or at any time?
I did this exercise with eyes closed (as per previous instruction in your post "Now we move on to look at the nature of thought. Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts" and its was very interesting. Sometimes I would kind of doze off into daydreaming, others times I would see the thought, not so much as passing by, but like a fade in, then fade out, in the middle, only awareness is left, no thinker of thoughts, just being, presence, emptiness, etc.

I did this exercise with eyes open too, before my regular meditation (or while driving in my car, where I get all kinds of thoughts), and liked it, because it kind of puts you in that zone of just being, waiting for a thought, then the thought. What I noticed is that once a thought appears, theres only the thought... theres no awareness saying "Oh, Im having this thought", its like awareness becomes the thought, then after the thought leaves... comes the awareness, or thought? labeling the experience, oh, i had a tought.... makes sense?

Thanks K, good exercises. Ill continue with these.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:39 am

Hi Z,
Hi Kay, never got a email notification about this reply! Anyways, glad to be here with you again.
Sometimes the system has a glitch and it doesn’t send out email notifications. I do answer posts on the same day I receive them. If I am unable to respond on the same day, I will drop you a quick post to let you know…so if you haven’t received an email notification, just check the forum.
Yes, goes to show that there really isn’t a separate self! It is only when there is a ‘coming back’ from daydreaming that thoughts appear saying “I was daydreaming”. The “I” thought takes ownership of what was happening even when there is no “I” doing anything as everything simply happens.
Lol, this is really something... so the I comes in the picture and takes ownership of something that he wasnt involved with.... this can be said of all creative doings no? like being a painter or writer. The I gets ownership of something that it didnt write or paint. Then it has the nerve to say "Im blocked, I cant write", lol....it never wrote anything!
Lol yes! Well, it’s just a thought that arises saying “I was daydreaming”. If you look at that thought, can an actual “I” be found in the thought, or is it only a thought ABOUT an “I”?

If you start to notice, a thought will arise saying stuff like “I am thinking”, “I am watching TV”, “I am driving to work”, “I am writing”, “I am looking for enlightenment”, “I am feeling sad”, “I am tired”, “I am confused” etc…there are countless “I” thoughts. Where exactly is this “I” that is doing or experiencing these things?

So what is known is label/thought + sensation + colour, however, is guilt actually known?
No.... and a comment about color, can it also being known as forms or images? you dont really see just a color, you see forms no?
How is it known that colour is an image? Without thought naming the colour as 'tree', for example, how would it be known that colour is an image of a tree?

Forms are shapes and shapes are just different shades of colour.

Image

Notice that when you go by direct visual experience alone, the way the tree is distinguished from the sky is by colour only. The ‘border’ or the ‘dividing line’ between the tree and the sky is just a sudden change in colour.

Normally we believe that shadow implied depth. But shadow is just a darker shade of colour.

When going alone with seeing only, there is nothing else in the image about shadow than the difference in colour from the surrounding areas.

And what about light? Light is the same as shadow. Just a change in colour, nothing else.

Look at the tree. There are some changes in colour labelled ‘darker’ or ‘lighter’, which thought implies as differences in depth, closer and far. But actually they are just some changes in colour.

Can depth actually be experienced?
Is there really a 3 dimension or only 2?

Look at the white colour labelled ‘clouds’. Are those far or further away from the tree?
And is the tree closer?
Can ‘closer’ and ‘far’ be experienced at all?

Is there a foreground or a background?
Is there an experience of ‘tree’ apart from colour?

We normally believe that colour is coming from the independent object (tree).
But is there really an object hiding somewhere behind the colour, or an object which is ‘emitting’ the colour?
Is there the experience of a physical object (tree) behind the colour, or that is independent of colour?


Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.
Let me know how you go.

Could a thinker of thought be found between the gaps or at any time?
I did this exercise with eyes closed (as per previous instruction in your post "Now we move on to look at the nature of thought. Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts" and its was very interesting. Sometimes I would kind of doze off into daydreaming, others times I would see the thought, not so much as passing by, but like a fade in, then fade out, in the middle, only awareness is left, no thinker of thoughts, just being, presence, emptiness, etc.

I did this exercise with eyes open too, before my regular meditation (or while driving in my car, where I get all kinds of thoughts), and liked it, because it kind of puts you in that zone of just being, waiting for a thought, then the thought. What I noticed is that once a thought appears, theres only the thought... theres no awareness saying "Oh, Im having this thought", its like awareness becomes the thought, then after the thought leaves... comes the awareness, or thought? labeling the experience, oh, i had a tought.... makes sense?
Really nice observation of thought! I like the way you said it’s more like they fade in and out than appear and disappear…nice!One of the best things you can do is to learn to become the observer of thought. This way you begin to see them for what they are, instead of for what they say and go down the rabbit hole with them.

Let’s take this one step further. Can a thought be seen, felt, smelled, tasted or heard...or is it simply known? I want you to look and 'find' a thought. You may see the label 'thought' and some mirage-like ‘arisings’, but can a thought be actually seen? Can you see that even the label 'thought' is also a mirage-like arising!

It is thought that divides experience/THIS into categories ie sound, smell, thought, taste etc. It is also only thought that labels itself as thought and defines itself, describes what it is, what it does etc. A thought isn't known because of its appearance or its content...it is known because it is THIS/experience. Just like colour isn’t known because it is a colour, or that it is an appearance...it is known because it is THIS. The same goes for what is labelled as sound, sensation, smell and taste.

There is no sound AND thought AND smell AND sensation AND taste AND smell AND colour. Soundthoughtsmellsensationtastecolour = experience/THIS appearing exactly as it is.
Can you see this?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Zazen01
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:05 am

Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby Zazen01 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:17 pm

Hi Kay!
Here you go.
Lol yes! Well, it’s just a thought that arises saying “I was daydreaming”. If you look at that thought, can an actual “I” be found in the thought, or is it only a thought ABOUT an “I”?
Only a thought about a 'I'.
If you start to notice, a thought will arise saying stuff like “I am thinking”, “I am watching TV”, “I am driving to work”, “I am writing”, “I am looking for enlightenment”, “I am feeling sad”, “I am tired”, “I am confused” etc…there are countless “I” thoughts. Where exactly is this “I” that is doing or experiencing these things?
Its nowhere, its just a illusion that arises in the moment as a identification, but its so automatic, that it gets caught in every moment of life.... but if one does the inquiry, whos tired? whos driving? then you see it, no one, nowhere.
How is it known that colour is an image? Without thought naming the colour as 'tree', for example, how would it be known that colour is an image of a tree?
Its not known, its just a label to identify things and separate them into something. Just part of the necessary functionality in life no?
Can depth actually be experienced?
Is there really a 3 dimension or only 2?
No depth, looking it this way, its just a flat image with different colors.
Look at the white colour labelled ‘clouds’. Are those far or further away from the tree?
They look the same.
And is the tree closer?
Can ‘closer’ and ‘far’ be experienced at all?
No, theres no far or close, just the flat image...
Is there a foreground or a background?
No, not really
But is there really an object hiding somewhere behind the colour, or an object which is ‘emitting’ the colour?
Is there the experience of a physical object (tree) behind the colour, or that is independent of colour?
No.
Let’s take this one step further. Can a thought be seen, felt, smelled, tasted or heard...or is it simply known? I want you to look and 'find' a thought. You may see the label 'thought' and some mirage-like ‘arisings’, but can a thought be actually seen? Can you see that even the label 'thought' is also a mirage-like arising!
No, it cant be seen... you know the thought, maybe only 'feel it', as something arising in and out of consciousness, fading in and out.... the label, I guess I have to practice this, but I got a glimpse of what you mean.... its like the label comes in to give meaning, but before its just like 'a story or meaning of something' arising.... makes sense? lol
It is thought that divides experience/THIS into categories ie sound, smell, thought, taste etc. It is also only thought that labels itself as thought and defines itself, describes what it is, what it does etc. A thought isn't known because of its appearance or its content...it is known because it is THIS/experience. Just like colour isn’t known because it is a colour, or that it is an appearance...it is known because it is THIS. The same goes for what is labelled as sound, sensation, smell and taste.

Yes, Ive come to this conclusion sometimes, that before the labels come in.... its just experience, raw, nothing more.
There is no sound AND thought AND smell AND sensation AND taste AND smell AND colour. Soundthoughtsmellsensationtastecolour = experience/THIS appearing exactly as it is.
Can you see this?
Yes! Im going to re read this several times lol... this is what I have been seeing... just one experience altogether, it even feels fake to go ahead and label the AE of everything as a exercise event though I know its a good practice to regain the awareness of the moment....

Thanks Kay :)

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forgetmenot
Posts: 5115
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:02 am

Hi Z,
If you start to notice, a thought will arise saying stuff like “I am thinking”, “I am watching TV”, “I am driving to work”, “I am writing”, “I am looking for enlightenment”, “I am feeling sad”, “I am tired”, “I am confused” etc…there are countless “I” thoughts. Where exactly is this “I” that is doing or experiencing these things?
Its nowhere, its just a illusion that arises in the moment as a identification, but its so automatic, that it gets caught in every moment of life.... but if one does the inquiry, whos tired? whos driving? then you see it, no one, nowhere.
Yes..it is automatic..and that is good to see…no? And yes, when one inquires…it is seen that there is a story about an “I” who is tired, driving etc…but an actual “I” cannot be found.
How is it known that colour is an image? Without thought naming the colour as 'tree', for example, how would it be known that colour is an image of a tree?
Its not known, its just a label to identify things and separate them into something. Just part of the necessary functionality in life no?
For whom/what is it a “necessary functionality in life”? Is there an author of thought? Is there a ‘you’ that brings forth the label ‘tree’ when the colour ‘tree’ appears, or does it appear automatically? What if the word/thought ‘anitinus’ appeared instead. Would you know what it was pointing to? Would you know that it was a name for ‘tree’?

Here is a signpost that points to Moscow, London, Berlin etc. All of these signposts are labels that seemingly point to something. Do the signposts have any idea what they are pointing to? Does what they are pointing to actually exist in AE?

Image
Can depth actually be experienced?
Is there really a 3 dimension or only 2?
No depth, looking it this way, its just a flat image with different colors.
This exercise was not just about a flat image seen on a computer screen. This exercise was pointing to the reality of what IS. As I said above…go outside and do this exercise in its entirety…and let me know what notice.

Can depth actually be experienced?
Is there really a 3 dimension or only 2?

Look at the white colour labelled ‘clouds’. Are those far or further away from the tree?
And is the tree closer?
Can ‘closer’ and ‘far’ be experienced at all?

Is there a foreground or a background?
No, not really

But is there really an object hiding somewhere behind the colour, or an object which is ‘emitting’ the colour?
Is there the experience of a physical object (tree) behind the colour, or that is independent of colour?

Let’s take this one step further. Can a thought be seen, felt, smelled, tasted or heard...or is it simply known? I want you to look and 'find' a thought. You may see the label 'thought' and some mirage-like ‘arisings’, but can a thought be actually seen? Can you see that even the label 'thought' is also a mirage-like arising!
No, it cant be seen... you know the thought, maybe only 'feel it', as something arising in and out of consciousness, fading in and out.... the label, I guess I have to practice this, but I got a glimpse of what you mean.... its like the label comes in to give meaning, but before its just like 'a story or meaning of something' arising.... makes sense? Lol
No…not understanding what you are saying. You can’t find where a thought comes from for one simple reason it’s not a thing

Let’s say, eg, that the thought “I am not good enough" appears. The ensuing thoughts of what that means, is the content of that thought.
It is thought that divides experience/THIS into categories ie sound, smell, thought, taste etc. It is also only thought that labels itself as thought and defines itself, describes what it is, what it does etc. A thought isn't known because of its appearance or its content...it is known because it is THIS/experience. Just like colour isn’t known because it is a colour, or that it is an appearance...it is known because it is THIS. The same goes for what is labelled as sound, sensation, smell and taste.
Yes, Ive come to this conclusion sometimes, that before the labels come in.... its just experience, raw, nothing more.
Yes, but labels are raw experience too…it is only thoughts about labels and thoughts about thoughts that give labels and thoughts meaning. The content of thought is what give labels and thoughts meaning. However, if thoughts were expressed via the tweeting of birds or an unknown language, how would you know what they meant? So what meaning is given to thoughts, are only just thoughts about thoughts.
Is this clear?

There is no sound AND thought AND smell AND sensation AND taste AND smell AND colour. Soundthoughtsmellsensationtastecolour = experience/THIS appearing exactly as it is.
Can you see this?
Yes! Im going to re read this several times lol... this is what I have been seeing... just one experience altogether, it even feels fake to go ahead and label the AE of everything as a exercise event though I know its a good practice to regain the awareness of the moment....
There is only ever this moment ie soundsmelltastethoughtcoloursensation (aka THIS/experience itself).

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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