Mopping up 123

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Amo
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:51 pm

Hi Kay,
Where are they coming from and going to?
They appear at the edge of consciousness and disappear somewhere.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No.
Can you predict your next thought?
No
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No. Just the other night I woke up to have some of these unpleasant work related thoughts which wouldn't stop for a long while.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
No. Only if something happens which triggers attention. But that's by chance. Or if I deliberately focus on something else. But then the thought is likely to come back later.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
No it's not a logical appearance. Thought are triggered by what the eye rests on. Or by what other thought or memory pops up. Or by what I do right now. It's pretty random.

Amo

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forgetmenot
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:20 am

Hello Amo,
What exactly is it that has habits?
What is the AE of ‘habits’?
No one has them. Habits are what developed together with this body-mind which generates sensations. It's another concept because there is no actual experience of habits. It takes thoughts and memory to notice them.
What you have written is all thought based….and based on assumptions.
Where can a body-mind be found in actual experience?
How is it known that thoughts are the catalyst for movement/action/focus?
What is the AE of ‘memory’?

There would have to be an “I” for something to have habits. Where exactly is this “I” and where is it located?
There is no I. Can't habit just be a pattern linked to the body-mind? No need for an owner if by repeated practice a pattern evolves. But again, in AE this is not perceivable.
This inquiry is about unlearning everything you think you know….therefore thinking is not the best tool to use. LOOKING with actual experience is. Knowing ABOUT something is called knowledge (ie thought). Knowing what actually IS, is direct/actual. Nothing is known as in knowledge – only thought says something is known because thought seemingly knows it. What is direct/actual is known because it is THIS/experience itself…knowing itself as it is self-aware.

What does
“can't habit just be a pattern linked to the body-mind? No need for an owner if by repeated practice a pattern evolves. But again, in AE this is not perceivable”
actually point to in actual experience?

What do you mean when you say "even the sensation is influenced"?
The commentary directs my attention to areas which would go unnoticed otherwise. It's distracting also.
Well let’s investigate that assumption.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focussing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?

Where are they coming from and going to?
They appear at the edge of consciousness and disappear somewhere.
Where does experience (ie consciousness) begin and end exactly?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No
Exactly! If you were the author/thinker of thought, you would ensure that you only ever had pleasant positive thoughts, would you not!
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
No. Only if something happens which triggers attention. But that's by chance. Or if I deliberately focus on something else. But then the thought is likely to come back later.
How is it known, without thought, that a thought has been stopped in the middle? Where is the middle of a thought exactly?

For something to trigger attention means that there is separation. That there is a me ‘here’ and something else that triggers attention (cause and effect). One thing can't cause another because there are no separate things.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
No it's not a logical appearance. Thought are triggered by what the eye rests on. Or by what other thought or memory pops up. Or by what I do right now. It's pretty random.
There is no cause and effect – that is the belief in time and the belief in separation…the idea that something follows something else.

Can you actually see the back of the eyes where the image comes from?

How is it known that the eyes see? Can you find anything behind the eyes that are seeing? What is actually known right now about eyes, except thought about them?

Look at whatever is in front of you. Is it seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes), or is it like a windscreen view? Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen? Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Amo
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:01 pm

Hi Kay,

I had a full day today celebrating my partner’s birthday. Lovely guests and a lot of cooking. Sorry, I couldn’t look into your pointers.
Will do tomorrow.

Amo


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forgetmenot
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:23 am

No worries, Amo!

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:50 pm

Hi Kay,
Where can a body-mind be found in actual experience?
How is it known that thoughts are the catalyst for movement/action/focus?
What is the AE of ‘memory’?
The actual experience of body-mind is sensation in the body, seeing of a shape which is called body, feeling touch or other sensations. Mind is consciousness which is awareness of what is, awareness of sensation etc.
Sometimes thought precede action of the body. But it's not certain that the thought has been the catalyst. Often action get's trigged by just sensation and then thought just in retrospect summarises what's happening.
The AE of memory is a thought or a feeling in the body. Or a combination of both.
What does
“can't habit just be a pattern linked to the body-mind? No need for an owner if by repeated practice a pattern evolves. But again, in AE this is not perceivable”
actually point to in actual experience?
It means that there is no AE of habit.
Focus on focussing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?
Attention moves by itself and is easily triggered by external or internal stimuli. It can be sound, sensation in the body, thought popping up. Focussing on breath makes it easier to stay with certain bodily sensations, the sensations of belly moving in a calm rhythm. Meditative experience shows that it's possible to extend the attention on just one sensation in the body. But ultimately attention moves without control if triggered. Attention is aware of what is right now but is highly volatile. No control.
Where does experience (ie consciousness) begin and end exactly?
No idea. It's just there.
How is it known, without thought, that a thought has been stopped in the middle? Where is the middle of a thought exactly?
There is no middle of a thought. It's just a concept, the idea that a thought process or story was underway when a sudden interruption took place. Which changed thought. Only by thinking I notice that it has changed after some trigger.
Can you actually see the back of the eyes where the image comes from?
No
How is it known that the eyes see? Can you find anything behind the eyes that are seeing? What is actually known right now about eyes, except thought about them?
Only by thought is it known that eyes make the perception of colour and shape possible. Knowledge about physiological processes and brain translating the sight into a picture. This is thought about the process. The AE is just seeing colour and shape.
Look at whatever is in front of you. Is it seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes), or is it like a windscreen view? Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen? Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?
Windscreen view. It's indeed just seen and no thing that sees. Awareness isn't separate, it's the same than experience. The seen is the experience, and then thought comes on top. Thought which comments or labels.

Amo

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:32 am

Hello Amo,
Where can a body-mind be found in actual experience?
How is it known that thoughts are the catalyst for movement/action/focus?
What is the AE of ‘memory’?
The actual experience of body-mind is sensation in the body, seeing of a shape which is called body, feeling touch or other sensations. Mind is consciousness which is awareness of what is, awareness of sensation etc.
You aren’t LOOKING with AE, Amo. You are going with thought.

There is no such thing as a mind. There is no ‘mind’ beyond thought.
What does the label ‘mind’ point to? Does it point to sound, colour, sensation, taste, smell or thought?

Sometimes thought precede action of the body. But it's not certain that the thought has been the catalyst. Often action get's trigged by just sensation and then thought just in retrospect summarises what's happening.
How is this known? Without thought…how is this known?
The AE of memory is a thought or a feeling in the body. Or a combination of both.
Yes…AE of memory is thought. Memory is a conceptual framework that suggests there is a storage system from where thoughts and images are retrieved.

Where exactly can this ‘storage system’ be found? And please don’t say the brain. If you think the brain, I want you to look and tell me what the AE of the brain is.

How does a sensation suggest that it is a memory? Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that is a memory or knows anything about a memory?
How is it known that a thought and sensation go hand in hand?

What does
“can't habit just be a pattern linked to the body-mind? No need for an owner if by repeated practice a pattern evolves. But again, in AE this is not perceivable”
actually point to in actual experience?
It means that there is no AE of habit.
Yes…there is no AE of habit. The label ‘habit’ points to thought. Where in colour, sound, smell, taste or sensation can a habit be found?
Focus on focussing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?
Attention moves by itself and is easily triggered by external or internal stimuli.
Really? Without thought how is that known? There is no subject/object split. There is no ‘me’ here and an objective world ‘out there’. One thing can't cause another because there are no separate things. We will look at this more later on.
It can be sound, sensation in the body, thought popping up. Focussing on breath makes it easier to stay with certain bodily sensations, the sensations of belly moving in a calm rhythm. Meditative experience shows that it's possible to extend the attention on just one sensation in the body. But ultimately attention moves without control if triggered. Attention is aware of what is right now but is highly volatile. No control.
This is all story. A story about a ‘me’ who is doing things. As I said…you are not LOOKING. You are just answering from what you think you know.
Where does experience (ie consciousness) begin and end exactly?
No idea. It's just there.
Yes exactly….there is no ‘edge of consciousness’.
How is it known, without thought, that a thought has been stopped in the middle? Where is the middle of a thought exactly?
There is no middle of a thought. It's just a concept, the idea that a thought process or story was underway when a sudden interruption took place. Which changed thought. Only by thinking I notice that it has changed after some trigger.
After doing the thought exercise and seeing that there is no thinker of thought, you are now saying that there is a you that thinks? Where exactly is this you that thinks? Please describe this you to me in precise detail and where this you is located exactly.

The actual experience of thought isn't any different just because the content of the thought is different. The content of thought is simply more thought. Thoughts are not what thoughts describe themselves as. A thought isn't known because of its appearance or its content...it is known because it is THIS/experience. Just like colour isn’t known because it is a colour, or that it is an appearance...it is known because it is THIS. The same goes for sound, taste, smell and sensation.
How is it known that the eyes see? Can you find anything behind the eyes that are seeing? What is actually known right now about eyes, except thought about them?
Only by thought is it known that eyes make the perception of colour and shape possible. Knowledge about physiological processes and brain translating the sight into a picture. This is thought about the process. The AE is just seeing colour and shape.
Yes…so put aside thoughts…because they can tell you nothing, other than thought stories and thought stories themselves are not reality. Actual experience is simply sound, colour, taste, smell, sensation and the face value of thought. Actual experience is everything, except the CONTENT of thought, because thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience. If it did the thought ‘water’ would be wet and the thought ‘sweet’ would taste sweet and the thought ‘fish’ would contain an actual fish!
Look at whatever is in front of you. Is it seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes), or is it like a windscreen view? Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen? Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?
Windscreen view. It's indeed just seen and no thing that sees. Awareness isn't separate, it's the same than experience. The seen is the experience, and then thought comes on top. Thought which comments or labels.
Yes exactly…there is no subject that is seeing objects or an objective world…that points to separation and there is no separation. Seeing and knowing are one and the same. Seeing of colour and seeing of seeing are one and the same = colour

Image

Please go back and review the thought exercise.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Amo
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:26 pm

Hi Kay,
What does the label ‘mind’ point to? Does it point to sound, colour, sensation, taste, smell or thought?
It points to thought.
How is this known? Without thought…how is this known?
It's not known without thought.
Where exactly can this ‘storage system’ be found? And please don’t say the brain. If you think the brain, I want you to look and tell me what the AE of the brain is.
How does a sensation suggest that it is a memory? Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that is a memory or knows anything about a memory?
How is it known that a thought and sensation go hand in hand?
No not the brain rather the whole body.
No the memory sensation doesn't know by itself. Just thought stories know. Also memory impressions in the body aren't known by itself. Only thought knows.
After doing the thought exercise and seeing that there is no thinker of thought, you are now saying that there is a you that thinks? Where exactly is this you that thinks? Please describe this you to me in precise detail and where this you is located exactly.
It's maybe a problem of language. Feels a bit odd not to use any pronouns any more, but surely there isn't a thinker. So to correct the last sentence of that paragraph: Thought jumps to something else in dependance of a trigger.

A question: you say
Actual experience is everything, except the CONTENT of thought, because thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience. If it did the thought ‘water’ would be wet and the thought ‘sweet’ would taste sweet and the thought ‘fish’ would contain an actual fish!
This is understood. However, what about the power of thought to trigger emotions in the body, even strong bodily reactions? A memory of a frightening situation causes stress in the body. And it seems the content of that memory thought which causes the stress which would suggest that there is an actual experience of thought content, no?
Please go back and review the thought exercise.
Focus on focussing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?
Attention moves with sensation. E.g. my feet are cold and this pops up into attention. Then a sound comes up and attention jumps to that. Another sound: message beep comes and attention is there. It goes where a sensation is. Attention is moved by contact with whatever. It's not controlled. Thought is one trigger of attention but not in control either. A thought pops up and attention is there then both disappear. And to the next...

But how about meditative absorption? When after a while thoughts become less agitated and attention stays easily on the body sensation. Thought is less disturbing then. Attention becomes one with just being. It's not that attention has been controlled into that or that thoughts are subdued. But yet it works to that effect that thoughts calm down and become less attractive and attention is more focussed on the calm.

Amo

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:42 am

Hello Amo,
What does the label ‘mind’ point to? Does it point to sound, colour, sensation, taste, smell or thought?
It points to thought.
Yes, there is no ‘mind’ beyond thought.
Sometimes thought precede action of the body. But it's not certain that the thought has been the catalyst. Often action get's trigged by just sensation and then thought just in retrospect summarises what's happening.
How is this known? Without thought…how is this known?
It's not known without thought.
Yes…thought based knowledge is fantasy. What is direct/actual experience is known…not because a thought labels it, but because it is direct/actual. In other words a thought isn’t needed to know colour, smell, taste, sensation, sound or thought…they are known. Thought based knowledge is content of thought and thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience. If it did, when the thought ‘water’ appeared, it would be wet. When the thought “tree” appeared it would contain an actual tree. If thought based knowledge was actual/real, then fairies must be real since thoughts about fairies arise as well!
Where exactly can this ‘storage system’ be found? And please don’t say the brain. If you think the brain, I want you to look and tell me what the AE of the brain is.
How does a sensation suggest that it is a memory? Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that is a memory or knows anything about a memory?
How is it known that a thought and sensation go hand in hand?
No not the brain rather the whole body.
You didn’t LOOK. So let’s begin to LOOK at this ASSUMPTION and we will do this by looking to see if the head is actual experience or fantasy. This will then give you an idea if the body is actual experience or fantasy. We will be looking at the body more indepth later on in this exploration. For now...we start with the head because the head is believed to be the location where thoughts/thinking happens.

Please IGNORE all thoughts and mental images of ‘head’ and ‘fingers’ and just answer from actual experience. Close your eyes and take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and keeping your eyes closed...

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation (labelled ‘pressure’) and thoughts ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the sensation labelled as ‘pressure points’, or are there just thoughts about something being in between them?
Are there actually two ‘pressure points’?

Without thought, how big is your head?
Without thought, does it have an inside or an outside?
Without thought, does it have a location?

No the memory sensation doesn't know by itself. Just thought stories know. Also memory impressions in the body aren't known by itself. Only thought knows.
What “memory sensation” exactly? What is the AE of “memory sensation”? Does it point to colour, sound, sensation, smell, taste or thought?

Does a sensation suggest in any way that it is a memory?
Does a sensation suggest in any way that it knows anything about a memory?

Thoughts are not entities that are aware. How can a thought possibly know about “memory impressions in the body”?
Is this actually known, or is the thought story about “memory impression in the body” is what is known?

After doing the thought exercise and seeing that there is no thinker of thought, you are now saying that there is a you that thinks? Where exactly is this you that thinks? Please describe this you to me in precise detail and where this you is located exactly.
It's maybe a problem of language. Feels a bit odd not to use any pronouns any more, but surely there isn't a thinker. So to correct the last sentence of that paragraph: Thought jumps to something else in dependance of a trigger.
Thought is not as thought describes itself to be. Thought describes the AE of colour as a tree, so why would what thought describes itself to be, be true?

A thought isn't known because of its appearance or its content...it is known because it is THIS/experience itself. That is why you can’t find where thought comes from or goes to…because it is not a ‘thing’. Colour isn’t known because it is a colour, or that it is an appearance...it is known because it is THIS/experience. The same goes for sound, taste, smell and sensation.
A question: you say
Actual experience is everything, except the CONTENT of thought, because thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience. If it did the thought ‘water’ would be wet and the thought ‘sweet’ would taste sweet and the thought ‘fish’ would contain an actual fish!
This is understood. However, what about the power of thought to trigger emotions in the body, even strong bodily reactions? A memory of a frightening situation causes stress in the body. And it seems the content of that memory thought which causes the stress which would suggest that there is an actual experience of thought content, no?
So…sensation is waiting somewhere in the background…waiting for a specific thought to appear…so it knows to appear when that specific thought appears! Must mean that sensations hide somewhere and that they have an intelligence of their own. Same goes for thought. So now there is an illusory you, and sensations and thoughts that are individual entities!
We will look at this later on. First I want to finish looking at the nature of thought.
Please go back and review the thought exercise.
Did you go back and review the thought exercise as asked? Please do this and report back.
But how about meditative absorption? When after a while thoughts become less agitated and attention stays easily on the body sensation. Thought is less disturbing then. Attention becomes one with just being. It's not that attention has been controlled into that or that thoughts are subdued. But yet it works to that effect that thoughts calm down and become less attractive and attention is more focussed on the calm.
Nice story and no LOOKING. Where is this "I" that is doing "meditative absorption"?
Thought says that the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?


If you are not going to start to LOOK but insist on going with thoughts…then you might as well go read a book about ‘awakening’. You can ask a million question starting with ‘but how about” and “but what about”. If you are serious about wanting to have the realisation about the absence of a separate self…please be here with an open mind and a willingness to LOOK. I am not here to convince you of anything. This exploration is about me pointing and you LOOKING so you find your own answers. So if you are not willing to LOOK...then this exploration goes nowhere. I know you have many questions…but they answer themselves as we move through this exploration….if you are willing to LOOK.

I would like you to go back to the beginning of your thread and REREAD it very carefully and thoroughly….so that you start to see what we have looked at so far. And please REREAD and REDO the thought exercise and report back on what insights you get from doing this.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Amo
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:17 am

Hi Kay,

I’m in Brussels on a conference today and tomorrow. So it might take a bit longer to reply.

Amo


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forgetmenot
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:21 am

Hi Amo...thank you for letting me know.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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