Nothingness from the north.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:27 am

Hi Arc,

Yes, there are ONLY TWO options:

EXPERIENCE (with the five senses)
or
FANTASY (thoughts)

It’s need to be repeated, since it’s so simple that it’s often overlooked.

What if I told you that seeing through the self was as simple as understanding the difference between reality and fantasy?

Take a look. Look for the self right now. Please do each of these exercises bellow, designed to move you from thought-based inquiry to experiential.

If it's there, and has been there 'your whole life', then it should be plain and simple.

Listen for the self. What is heard right now? List it out.
Find the self with touch. Touch the self. What is found?
Find the self with smelling. Smell it. What can be found?
Feel the self. How does the self is felt? What is the feeling of the self?


Look very carefully with each questions. Be careful not to reply with the automatic knee-jerk condition thought reactions. Rather try to get outside of the box of the learned, collected intellectual knowledge, and really investigate with the simplicity and curiosity of a child.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
Posts: 64
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:54 am

Hi Vivien.
What if I told you that seeing through the self was as simple as understanding the difference between reality and fantasy?
That could very well be true.
Listen for the self. What is heard right now? List it out.
Humming sounds. Several.
Ticking sound.
High "pitch" sound.

Find the self with touch. Touch the self. What is found?
Solid "me". It's a kind of soft, but it varies in different body parts. The body. It has shapes.
Find the self with smelling. Smell it. What can be found?
Smell of me? If I get closer to clothes they smell different. But overall it's a combination of smells. There are different smells in me.
Feel the self. How does the self is felt? What is the feeling of the self?
Self is not alright. It's anxious. Feeling bad. Back is sore.
But the self is not actually felt. I can't feel self. I only feel those things I mentioned.
Self is felt by those things affecting the self.


-Arc.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:09 am

Hi Arc,
But the self is not actually felt. I can't feel self. I only feel those things I mentioned.
So the self itself cannot be felt, cannot be touched, cannot be smelled, cannot be tasted, cannot be heard, cannot be seen. Right?

So the self itself cannot be experienced at all. Right?
Self is not alright. It's anxious. Feeling bad. Back is sore.
If the self itself cannot be experienced at all, then HOW do you know that the self is anxious?

The anxiousness (or any other feeling or emotion) is there.
But WHERE is the self? Is there a self at all?
Self is felt by those things affecting the self.
No. This is a pure thought speculation.

The self cannot be felt. Just as you discovered.
The smell of the clothing are NOT the self. That just the smell of the clothing.
All those sounds you listed are NOT the self. Those are just sounds of the body.
The body being touched is NOT the self. That’s just the body.
Can you see these?

WHERE is the self that is supposedly being affected all by these?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:02 am

Hi Vivien!
So the self itself cannot be felt, cannot be touched, cannot be smelled, cannot be tasted, cannot be heard, cannot be seen. Right?

So the self itself cannot be experienced at all. Right?
Yes. To both. It's exactly so.
If the self itself cannot be experienced at all, then HOW do you know that the self is anxious?
I don't... I actually don't know that. That is the case.

But I still have this feeling of anxiety and this is something I'm not getting here. Why do I have that feeling or at least I think I have?
The anxiousness (or any other feeling or emotion) is there.
But WHERE is the self? Is there a self at all?
The self is not there, but the emotion is. I can't sense self, but the emotion is there.

Self is felt by those things affecting the self.

No. This is a pure thought speculation.

This is a thing I always fall into. I know it's thought speculation, but this still happens every time.

Can you see these?
Yes I do.

There is a big difficulty for me to separate self from my body. I see that the body is just a body, but still it is difficult.
WHERE is the self that is supposedly being affected all by these?
It's not anywhere. At least it's nowhere to be found with senses.

Body is affected.



-Arc.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:42 am

Hi Arc,
But I still have this feeling of anxiety and this is something I'm not getting here. Why do I have that feeling or at least I think I have?
Are you sure that what you REALLY want is to see that there is no self at all, OR what you ACTUALLY want is to get rid of anxiety and negative emotions, and feel better?

Why are you trying to do this investigation?
Are you hoping that it will make you feel better? Is this the reason?
Or what?


Since all your replies point to the direction that you don’t want to see through the self.
You want something else.
This is a thing I always fall into. I know it's thought speculation, but this still happens every time.
You are falling for the thought speculation, because you are not really want to see that there is no self.
It's not anywhere. At least it's nowhere to be found with senses.
You reply as if nothing has happened in the last few months (with this investigation).
You are just repeating your belief and thoughts again and again and again.
And no matter what happened X days ago, you are just simply ignoring those, as if we were just now started the investigation.

From what you write, it seems that you are not serious about this at all.
Or you are completely undermining yourself.

Please sit down, and REALLY contemplate that what is it that you want from this investigation?
What do you want to achieve?


And please, be very honest with yourself.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat May 18, 2019 5:35 am

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:34 am

Hi Vivien!

Are you sure that what you REALLY want is to see that there is no self at all, OR what you ACTUALLY want is to get rid of anxiety and negative emotions, and feel better?
I don't know what I want to see, if there is no self, then there is no self and then I see that.
Of course I want to feel better, but that is not why I'm here. Nobody likes anxiety. That is why asked the question, if there is not me, why do I still feel this way...
Why are you trying to do this investigation?
I applied to do this. It felt like the right thing to do. There is no clear answer in to this question.
Are you hoping that it will make you feel better? Is this the reason?
Or what?
No, I don't expect to feel better. I can't give you any specific reason why I'm doing this.
You reply as if nothing has happened in the last few months (with this investigation). You are just repeating your belief and thoughts again and again and again.
And no matter what happened X days ago, you are just simply ignoring those, as if we were just now started the investigation.
I don't know how I'm expected to proceed in this investigation? Looks like there is something that I'm not getting, but I don't know what that is.
From what you write, it seems that you are not serious about this at all.
Or you are completely undermining yourself.
Then it must be undermining. I can't see why I'm not serious.
Please sit down, and REALLY contemplate that what is it that you want from this investigation?
What do you want to achieve?
From the point I started this investigation, I had no clue what to expect. And now I don't even want to expect anything to be achieved. I just want to see what happens and how things are. I don't expect them to be anyhow. Why would I even have an expectation if I don't know what it could be.

That's as honest I can get.

This is the best I can do, I don't know why it goes like this.

-Arc

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:24 am

Hi Arc,

Thank you for your honesty. I really appreciate it.
I don't know what I want to see, if there is no self, then there is no self and then I see that.
This currently is an intellectual understanding and not an experiential seeing.
Of course I want to feel better, but that is not why I'm here. Nobody likes anxiety. That is why asked the question, if there is not me, why do I still feel this way...
But even if the self is seen (experientially) as an illusion, it doesn’t mean that anxiety will go away.

There has never been a self there and yet anxiety, fear or any other emotion still has arisen.
So emotions won’t go away just because the self is seen only as an illusion.
But it can be seen, that anxiety or any other emotion doesn’t belong to anybody / anything.
They are just free floating, without an owner.
And the freedom lies in seeing this.

Previously you wrote this:
There is a big difficulty for me to separate self from my body. I see that the body is just a body, but still it is difficult.
How could the self being the body if you (we) constantly say and think: MY body, MY arm, MY legs, MY heart, MY feelings, MY emotions, MY face… my… my… my…. my….

So WHERE is this entity that owns the body? The one that say ‘my’?

Please look this question very carefully, and not just simply write me the answer, but please also write about where yuo look for this entity and how you do the looking itself.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat May 18, 2019 5:35 am

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:14 am

Hi Vivien!

I'm having a though week :) again.
Too much work to do.

I'm gonna be on a work trip rest of the week, but I'll see if I have a chance to read this forum.

So WHERE is this entity that owns the body? The one that say ‘my’?
This was very good question.

Of course I have this belief of "me", everybody else determine me as this body. But I tried to do better than that.

I tried to find the places where this "owning" happens and what actually does it. What I find is that somehow it is limited to senses. Mostly vision. What "I" see as me I claim as me. When I look at things or myself, the border is drawn in the outer limits of eyes. That is where I end, then my visual suggests that what I see as my skin is my outer limit.

Second comes the touch. That creates a border too. A bit like vision. If I touch something, towards "me" is me from the point I touch something.

This doesn't apply so much to the other senses.

Then again, when I search this "me" that has a vision I can't point where it is. I can't even tell what sees or when visual image is "mine". I definitely can't tell, where this image is processed or by what.

"Me" is not outside my skin or beyond my eyes... Me can't be found inside my skin or inside my eyes.

Something still creates a border, but I'm not sure what it is.

Me is not inside me or outside me, so why there is the border (which says me)?

And then again. Where this "me" actually is, which creates this border. I don't know...


I'm not sure if this helped you to know what I'm doing here, but this was what I was doing this time to answer your question.

-Arc

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:49 am

Hi Arc,
Me is not inside me or outside me, so why there is the border (which says me)?
How many me-s do you have?

ME is not inside me or outside me” – what is this second me (red) that the other me (green) is not inside it?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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