Nothingness from the north.

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Arcticshaman
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Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Sat May 18, 2019 5:41 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
After very dark period of my life, something like awakening was triggered. At some point, I came aware that each and every thing I was, was not from me. All these things I wanted, believed what I was came from outside. So I wandered for days, not knowing what was real, cause I understood that almost nobody knows this and everything is just.. not me

What are you looking for at LU?
To understand more about this. Find others who know that me as a person is just a collection of beliefs got from others. To know what I really am, cause I feel that I don't exist. Well I do at some point, but I would really like to understand this better. Maybe to know what to do with all this? My life was really turned upside-down and nothing works like it used to... Used to be before I realized that I don't exist and the "thing" deep inside does know everything better. Now it works differently.
Maybe to understand why the "old" world as I used to know it tries to pull me inside it again. Even that I don't believe in anything. Everything for me is just a believe, a thing just made up, by me or the others. I have tremendous problems in my financial life and those are really giving me hard time, maybe that's something I can't give up and need help with?
I agree with much of what was said in the book Gateless Gatecrashers. Well, it's a book written by others but still.... Oh, writing this is hard. Very hard.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don't know. Maybe to understand something more about this? Maybe you know what I need or if I don't need anything. For some reason I'm here. In last few years everything has happened about by the time it needed. Just after I had a thought and figured something out help/confirmation came right after that. So maybe I understand this thing good enough right now and someone can help me forward. I don't know how.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I try to make it short. Well, I had what they call a "twin flame" experience. After that I completely crashed and from those ruins I was somehow guided to spirituality. Just met the right persons and texts. Got somehow forward to understand that actually I didn't want anything else but to feel, feel love. At some point I realized that anything in me was not from me. All the things I was, came from outside, even the things I thought I liked, even my feelings I kind of had for others. Result -I didn't exist. And after that I realized that neither does anyone else and everything I know is just a passed belief. Somewhere between those things I managed to quiet my mind, to completely nothing. That led into very strange state. Images, thoughts coming and going, people, places, happenings. Maybe it's the universe? And I'm that too? Something like everybody's experiences, dreams, thoughts at random order.
What I seek? I don't know. Answers? Help? Well I don't even seek those, those things seem to come anyways when I'm ready.
Everything is new, it's exciting, I like this. More of.... this? Maybe someone can point a little direction?

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Wed May 22, 2019 3:37 am

Hi,

My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self' and other related topics.

At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings realizations. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

This would YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

It's not totally clear for me that what you are after, but I can tell you what I can help with. So I can offer an experiential inquiry, and not a discussion of ideas, as I mentioned above. Since the whole illusion is mainly created by thoughts, we can look at them thoroughly, seeing the clear distinction of the actual experience of thoughts, and their 'contents', what they are about. Also, we can look at how decision is make (if we need to). We can have a deep look on the body and sensations, emotions and the sense of self. Looking at the concepts of awareness or consciousness is essential too, and seeing if the sentence 'I am' is really in correlation with the actual experience. Also, seeing if there is really a subject-object relation going on. Furthermore, we can look at the notion of time and if you're interested we can look at how the seeming 'outside world' is created.

Please let me know, if this is what you're interested in.

If you'd like to start this process, here are links to information I would like you to read first please.
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the 'Post Reply" button at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration (for example, what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change). Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Thu May 23, 2019 10:50 pm

Please let me know, if this is what you're interested in.
Yes it is. At least I think it is. Thank you for offering to guide me.
Hopefully I am "ready" for this. I don't know if I am, but I'll try.
How will Life change?
I don't know if it will. I feel it can become somehow easier. I really have no expectations.
How will you change?
Maybe I will be more ease about what is happening in life. I see through this illusion, not just understand it? Hopefully for something better.
What will be different?
Nothing? I'll just accept better how things are. Maybe I get rid of my few last fears or at least understand them better.
What is missing?
Hopefully the question "what am I?"


Sorry about the short answers, but I really don't have many expectations any more. The fact that I'm here seems to run on an autopilot and it has been like that from the beginning. See my registration. I didn't ever start to seek any spiritual answers or enlightenment it just happened. I just try to be happy how things work out. That's all. But still, I'll do my best.

And I'm sorry. Sometimes my work might prevent me from answering in time, and in rare cases there might be some language problems. Mostly with the terms used. But I try to ask if I don't understand something.

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Fri May 24, 2019 2:32 am

Hi,
How can I call you?
Sometimes my work might prevent me from answering in time, and in rare cases there might be some language problems. Mostly with the terms used. But I try to ask if I don't understand something.
All right. Thank you for letting me know. If there is anything you don’t understand feel free to ask.
but I really don't have many expectations any more.
That’s very good. Every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But awakening cannot be found in the future.
Maybe to understand why the "old" world as I used to know it tries to pull me inside it again.
After seeing through the self, the old patterns still come up due to a life-long conditioning. However, upon each looking these patters got a little bit weaker and weaker. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism. Awakening is not a one-time event, but rather a gradual process.
At some point I realized that anything in me was not from me. All the things I was, came from outside, even the things I thought I liked, even my feelings I kind of had for others. Result -I didn't exist.
The awakening process starts with the realization that the self (the me) is just an illusion. The self ‘exists’ as an illusion only. But behind that illusion there is no me or self hiding somewhere.
To know what I really am, cause I feel that I don't exist
“I don’t exist” cannot be felt. This is only a thought. Thoughts cannot be felt. Only sensations can be felt. There is no feeling or sensation for “I don’t exist”. But it doesn’t mean either that “I exist”. But we will look at this closely.

Thoughts ‘say’ all sorts of things, rambles about everything, but just because thoughts ‘say’ certain things, that doesn’t make those things true.
Hopefully the question "what am I?"
This is just another thought seeming wanting an answer on behalf of the separate self.

So let’s start the investigation.

As stated in my first post, my role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

Okay, now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour (image), sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment. You are looking at the raw experience of AE and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and thought interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience.

Here is an exercise which help you to distinguish between what is actually happening and what THOUGHTS ‘SAY’ ABOUT what is actually happening.

I would like you to try this exercise as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup = visual sight
Smelling coffee = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup = sensation
Tasting the coffee = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee = thought


Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Fri May 24, 2019 3:27 pm

Hi Vivien.
How can I call you?
If shortening of my nic Arctic or Arc is ok for you. You can use that.
There's also a name in my dirvers license if you want to use that instead. :)
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.
I've been doing this for a while now and I gathered few examples. Moments needed to be really short that they could be written here. Otherwise this post would be a mile long...

Out in field with the dogs:
Seeing hay field and forest. Visual.
Seeing two dog's (running and playing). Visual.
Seeing cloudy sky. Visual.
Smelling grass and forest. Smell.
Feeling a cold spot. (When dog touches me with her nose) Sensation.
Feeling grass against legs when walking. Sensation.
Hearing the sound of wind in trees. Sound.
Hearing very distant traffic. Sound.
Hearing birds singing. Sound.
Thought about crossing the field. Thought.
Thought about sun coming out from the clouds. Thought.
Thought about dogs playing happily. Thought.
Thought about how to navigate to the other end of the hay field. Thought.
Thought about reaching the forest at the other end of the field. Thought.
Thought about path in forest. Thought.


Home. Kitchen. Having a glass of soda.

Seeing a table. Visual.
Seeing a glass on the table. Visual.
Seeing drink in the glass. Its black. Visual.
Hearing the bubbles in the drink. Sound.
Thought of drinking the soda. Thought.
Feeling the coldness of the glass/drink in there. Sensation.
Smelling the drink. Smell.
Tasting the drink. Taste.
Feeling the coldness and the bubbles of the drink. Sensation.

At this point the soda actually seemed not to exist anymore... only thought about I just drank it was left. Everything else is gone.

Thought about putting the glass in to the dish washer. Thought.
Hearing the hatch opening. Sound.
Hearing the sound of glass put in to dish washer. Sound.
Thought about not being thirsty anymore. Thought.

That was what I got out of those two examples. Hopefully they are even near what I was supposed to do.

There were also many other things during the day including driving a car, reading a newspaper, writing an e-mail, going to gym and many others, but I picked those two.

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Sat May 25, 2019 12:13 am

Hi Arc,

You did a very nice looking!

The whole illusion is mainly created by thoughts. So therefore, we will investigate thoughts and thought labels thoroughly.
So then let’s have a deeper look on thoughts. Sit for about 15 minutes and investigate these questions. Look for the ‘answer’ BEFORE thought interpretation kicks in.

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts? – don’t think, rather look for a ‘thinker’
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?


Please go through these questions and answer and quote ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Try to answer them only from direct experience, and leave aside all intellectual interpretation or understanding. Please, DON’T THINK about the answers, rather LOOK at what is before thoughts. Take your time.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Sat May 25, 2019 1:11 am

Thank you Viv.

Yes I'm from Finland (very different time zone), but I'm awake at very strange times because of my work. Just got them done, so time for this is excellent. :D
Where do thoughts come from?
Thoughts come from nowhere. Some of them are are created through perception of things like if I see a my credit card bill, it creates a though of "how can I get money to pay that".
But no, thoughts come from nowhere. If I completely clear my mind, I just "see" thoughts and they are completely random.
Where are they going?
They just vanish. Nowhere? Same place where they came from?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
No, but I can change the direction of the next thought. Like now, when I'm in financial trouble, I can change the direction away from those conditions for the following thoughts, but I can't stop the first one from emerging out of nowhere.
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Not really, but I can direct thoughts the other way from for example a problem which arises as a thought.
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
No. They will just emerge. I still can at some point "take control" and comfort myself with the phrase "it's just a thought, nothing real, think about something else." That in most cases help me to get my mind into something else.
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
Nope. There is something that can sole problems and stuff, but thoughts just come.
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
Something "thinks" or uses logic to solve a problem, but there is not I behind that. The one I used to think to be I is not there.
What is the thinker of thoughts? – don’t think, rather look for a ‘thinker’
It depends. When I concentrate on a problem, there seems to be a problem solving unit doing the thinking. Otherwise thinker can't be found. Thoughts just come.
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
See previous. Or maybe I don't understand the question correctly. So the answer is no.
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
It could be. It also could be some sort of higher level of understanding/being. I don't know, but from this perspective I that thinks could just be a "big" thought.
Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?
I tried to answer that before. Sometimes it seems that I think and solve problems so I can somewhat concentrate thoughts. Sometimes thoughts just come out of nowhere. I think mostly it is the later one. And as I said, if I clear my mind completely. Thoughts just come at random and there are many of them.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?
Nope. No matter how hard I try, also disaterous thoughts still arrive. No matter if I want them or not. Thought "I" is the same thing. But after realizing that there is no me, it doesn't appear as often (always) as it used to. The "me me me" is somehow little by little disappearing.

I sure hope you understand, what I tried to say... those answers are so messed up. :) Sorry. I tried my best and wrote exactly what I had in mind when reading the questions....

And thank you for using your time to guide me. You're nice.

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Sat May 25, 2019 1:45 am

Hi Arc,
And thank you for using your time to guide me. You're nice.
You’re very welcome.
Thoughts come from nowhere. Some of them are are created through perception of things like if I see a my credit card bill, it creates a though of "how can I get money to pay that".
OK. It might seem that way that the perception of a credit card bill creates a thought about that. But is this correspond with the AE?

Look at an object (it could be the bill). And look for the process itself that is creating the thoughts. Where is the process exactly? How does the process look like? – don’t think, only look at the experience.

There is the object (bill) and there is the thought “how can I get money to pay that”. And look for the link, or anything that is coming from the object (bill) to making a thought appear about it. Is there anything?
I can change the direction of the next thought. Like now, when I'm in financial trouble, I can change the direction away from those conditions for the following thoughts,
So there is a thought (1) “I am in financial trouble”, which is followed by another thought (2) “I don’t like this, so let’s think about something else”, which is followed by the thought (3) “I like the weather today”.

So how does the thought 2 made to appear thought 3?
And what made thought 2 appear?
Does thought 2 made the decision that thought 1 is unpleasant therefore changed the direction of the following thoughts?

Or is there something behind all of these thoughts, making decisions and changing directions?
If yes, what is it exactly? Where is it exactly? – look at the AE
but I can direct thoughts the other way from for example a problem which arises as a thought.
“I can direct thoughts the other way” - What does the word ‘I’ refer to in this sentence?
What is it exactly that is directing thoughts? Where is this director exactly?
I still can at some point "take control" and comfort myself
What is it exactly that is taking control? – is it a sound, image, taste, smell, sensation or thought?
There is something that can solve problems and stuff
What is it exactly that can solve problems? – is it a sound, image, taste, smell, sensation or thought?
Where is the ‘problem solver’ exactly? – find the location
Something "thinks" or uses logic to solve a problem, but there is not I behind that.
How is it known EXACTLY that there is something that thinks or use logic?
Where is this thinker exactly? – find it
When I concentrate on a problem, there seems to be a problem solving unit doing the thinking.
Find this ‘problem solving unit’! Where is it exactly?
If it exists, it has to be found. How does it look like? Where is its location?
Is it a sound, image, taste, smell, sensation or thought?

V: Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
A: It could be. It also could be some sort of higher level of understanding/being. I don't know, but from this perspective I that thinks could just be a "big" thought.
When I ask a question, I never ask you to speculate on the question, but rather look at the immediate experience, and describe what can be seen.

So, where is this ‘higher level of understanding/being’? – where is its location
How is known exactly that there is a ‘higher level of understanding/being’ doing the thinking?
What is the AE of this ‘higher level of understanding/being’ doing the thinking?
Sometimes it seems that I think and solve problems so I can somewhat concentrate thoughts.
So what I am asking you to do is describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or solve a problem. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?

I asked lots of questions, so take your time and look very carefully. Don’t think about the answer, but rather look at the experience directly. Don’t rush.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Sat May 25, 2019 9:08 pm

Look at an object (it could be the bill). And look for the process itself that is creating the thoughts. Where is the process exactly? How does the process look like? – don’t think, only look at the experience.
I look at the bill. It creates a thought about that I have to pay it. That somehow creates another thought about that I don't have enough money to do so.
Another thought is created that if I can't pay it my credit card will be canceled and where I live it means that many other things like my other credits and phone/internet will be taken down.
So, it creates a series of thoughts about the possible very negative future.
Taken as what it really is, it's a visual sighting of a piece of paper.
I cannot locate the process or where it is. It might be in my head, but I'm not sure.
There is the object (bill) and there is the thought “how can I get money to pay that”. And look for the link, or anything that is coming from the object (bill) to making a thought appear about it. Is there anything?
Bill is somehow linked into thought about having less money. Visual of the amount may be the link. But that is kind of stupid cause it's just a number which can be seen.
Everything else is just series of thoughts.
So how does the thought 2 made to appear thought 3?
And what made thought 2 appear?
Does thought 2 made the decision that thought 1 is unpleasant therefore changed the direction of the following thoughts?
Thought 2 made 3 to appear because I have somehow forced myself to stop negative thinking patterns by doing so.

Emotion linked to negative thought. And selflearned pattern to switch target of my attention/thoughts.

Very good question. I don't know how the process happens. I don't know how the decission is made.
Or is there something behind all of these thoughts, making decisions and changing directions?
If yes, what is it exactly? Where is it exactly? – look at the AE
I can't identify it if there is. It can't be located anywhere (maybe inside this body, cause no-one else is affected by this). It just happens.
“I can direct thoughts the other way” - What does the word ‘I’ refer to in this sentence?
What is it exactly that is directing thoughts? Where is this director exactly?
See previous. Crap, I feel trapped. :D I don't know where the director is or what is it.
What is it exactly that is taking control? – is it a sound, image, taste, smell, sensation or thought?
From given choices only thought is possible. It can't be sensed.
What is it exactly that can solve problems? – is it a sound, image, taste, smell, sensation or thought?
Where is the ‘problem solver’ exactly? – find the location
I've been wondering that too. I don't know what it is. Thought from choises given.
Location can't be identified. Science would say it's the brain but it can't be located any better than that. I can't confirm the explanation given by science.
How is it known EXACTLY that there is something that thinks or use logic?
Where is this thinker exactly? – find it
I seem to be able to solve problems and answer questions much better and creative ways than most people. So, it seems that way that there is a thinker.
But I can't find it. I think it's somewhere in here, but I can't point it.
Find this ‘problem solving unit’! Where is it exactly?
If it exists, it has to be found. How does it look like? Where is its location?
Is it a sound, image, taste, smell, sensation or thought?
I don't know where it is. It can't be found.
Thought picked as a choice.
So, where is this ‘higher level of understanding/being’? – where is its location
How is known exactly that there is a ‘higher level of understanding/being’ doing the thinking?
What is the AE of this ‘higher level of understanding/being’ doing the thinking?
Just a speculation. It can't be found with senses.

There's no way to know that.

There is no sensible AE. But there is a terrible feeling/sensation that arises out of nowhere if I'm doing something the way it shouldn't be done. That happens even if I thought some process over and felt like it's a good way of doing it.
Still, there is no AE of higher level of understanding or being doing that. From the choices you usually give me, it's a thought.
I lock my answer. No, AE. I don't know what is it or that if there is one.
So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?
I have a problem. F. ex. how much water will I need for the for the small pool in backyard.
I identify the problem. Then I think about equation which I have learnt and will solve the problem. I place the numbers in my thoughts.
I think about calculating it. I get an answer. That's it.
I can't give you any better answer than that. I know, my answer seems somewhat stupid. I don't know how I create a thought? By identifying a problem with my senses and then linking it into things learnt before?

That's it. This was the best I can do...

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Sun May 26, 2019 1:41 am

Hi Arc,
Previously we did the AE exercise where you labelled the experience according what was really happening compared to what thoughts said what was happening. Like “Smelling grass and forest = Smell”.

The reason why we did this, because AE is the best tool to investigate what is really happening, versus what thoughts suggests ABOUT what is really happening.

Thoughts overlay AE with stories about the AE, and we take these thoughts stories as realities, instead of seeing them only as thought overlays.
So when I ask you questions, I always want to you LOOK at the AE directly, and NOT what THOUGHTS have to say ABOUT the AE. Most of your replies came from only thinking, trying to figure out the answer, instead of looking at what is really happening.

So I’d like to ask you to ALWAYS LOOK at the AE, and NOT just think or ponder it intellectually. You have to see this experientially.
I look at the bill. It creates a thought about that I have to pay it. That somehow creates another thought about that I don't have enough money to do so.
This is only a thought interpretation.
In AE there is NOTHING LINKING the sight of the bill with thoughts about paying the bill. Only thoughts ‘say’ this. Can you see this?
I cannot locate the process or where it is. It might be in my head, but I'm not sure.
The first sentence is the description of the AE. A process of linking the 2 cannot be found.
But the second sentence is just coming from thinking. It’s just an intellectual explanation. It’s not coming from AE.
Bill is somehow linked into thought about having less money. Visual of the amount may be the link. But that is kind of stupid cause it's just a number which can be seen.
The link is just ASSUMED by THOUGHTS. There is not AE of a link. Can you see this?
Thought 2 made 3 to appear because I have somehow forced myself to stop negative thinking patterns by doing so.
This is not coming from AE, it’s just a thought interpretation.
I don't know how the process happens. I don't know how the decission is made.
Both the process and the decision just ASSUMED. And this is exactly what we are investigating here. We are investigating if these assumptions can stand the scrutiny of the direct experience.
It can't be located anywhere (maybe inside this body, cause no-one else is affected by this). It just happens.
It’s seen that a decision maker cannot be found, but since there is a BELIEF IN the existence of a ‘decision maker’ there is a thought explanation that although it cannot be found, it’s maybe inside the body, since no-one else is affected by this body.
So this sentence assumes that there is not just a decider, but also someone, a me, who is affected by the body. Can you see this?
V: What is it exactly that is taking control? – is it a sound, image, taste, smell, sensation or thought?
A: From given choices only thought is possible. It can't be sensed.
This is not a multiple choice question :) You didn’t LOOK for the answer, but rather you were THINKING ABOUT the answer.
I can't confirm the explanation given by science.
Exactly. This came from looking.
I seem to be able to solve problems and answer questions much better and creative ways than most people. So, it seems that way that there is a thinker.
But I can't find it. I think it's somewhere in here, but I can't point it.
When a sentence starts with “It seems…” or “It feels…” that’s a sure sign that what will follow is just an analogy. Just a thought interpretation. Just a story. A speculation.

“I think it's somewhere in here, but I can't point it.” – So there is a difference between what thoughts say: “It’s somewhere here’, and what is seen in AE “can’t point it”.
So the thought/belief “there is a problems solver” doesn’t correspond with the AE. Can you see this?
V: So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?
A: I have a problem. F. ex. how much water will I need for the for the small pool in backyard.
I identify the problem. Then I think about equation which I have learnt and will solve the problem. I place the numbers in my thoughts.
I think about calculating it. I get an answer. That's it.
Please read your above comment. And see that this is just a thought interpretation. It doesn’t come from looking.
I don't know how I create a thought? By identifying a problem with my senses and then linking it into things learnt before?
IF you are the thinker, and make thoughts appear then you MUST KNOW how you do it. Otherwise, on what bases do you say that you are thinker?

Have you ever had a stressful thought? If you were the author of thoughts why would you chose to author stressful thoughts? Can you decide never to have a worrying or stressful thought?

If you were the author of thoughts you would have a 100% chance of doing that, because you would simply decide not to author the thought.

Are you the author of thoughts? Can you decide never to author another unhappy thought?
Are you able to decide never to author another thought whatsoever?


And if you are the author of thoughts, please describe for me the process of authorship. Do you use words to make up the thoughts? Do you use grammar? And what does the thought look like when it is half formed, before you have finished authoring it?

Or is there an infinite number of words somewhere stored hidden from sight, and you go there and choose and pick the words and the grammar structures to create a thought?
Or do you create the words themselves, letter by letter?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Sun May 26, 2019 5:48 pm

Hi Vivien,

you are right, that's exactly what I did. I see it now, when you point it out.
I'll try to look this time.
In AE there is NOTHING LINKING the sight of the bill with thoughts about paying the bill. Only thoughts ‘say’ this. Can you see this?
Yes I can. In AE there is no link.
The link is just ASSUMED by THOUGHTS. There is not AE of a link. Can you see this?
Yes. There is no link in AE. I was trying to find it but it's not there.
So this sentence assumes that there is not just a decider, but also someone, a me, who is affected by the body. Can you see this?
I can see that. I said that. But in AE decider, someone or me can't be found or sensed in any way.
So the thought/belief “there is a problems solver” doesn’t correspond with the AE. Can you see this?
I can see that. Problem solver can't be found in AE.
It still feels very real, but it doesn't correspond with the AE.
V: So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?

A: I have a problem. F. ex. how much water will I need for the for the small pool in backyard.
I identify the problem. Then I think about equation which I have learnt and will solve the problem. I place the numbers in my thoughts.
I think about calculating it. I get an answer. That's it.

Please read your above comment. And see that this is just a thought interpretation. It doesn’t come from looking.
Yes, I tried to describe the process with my comment, but you are right.
IF you are the thinker, and make thoughts appear then you MUST KNOW how you do it. Otherwise, on what bases do you say that you are thinker?
Only thought basis. No evidence is found.
Have you ever had a stressful thought? If you were the author of thoughts why would you chose to author stressful thoughts? Can you decide never to have a worrying or stressful thought?
Yes. Yes. No. In that order.
Are you the author of thoughts? Can you decide never to author another unhappy thought?
Are you able to decide never to author another thought whatsoever?
I would love to be, but there is no AE of that. I can't decide to do that. So it's a no to all.
There's a bit of a language problem here. But I take it that by author you mean author like create?
And if you are the author of thoughts, please describe for me the process of authorship. Do you use words to make up the thoughts? Do you use grammar? And what does the thought look like when it is half formed, before you have finished authoring it?
I can't describe that.
In AE no, but if I see a word like "dog". Thought about dog is instantly created.

F. ex. "New York" and "in New York" result different thoughts, but I can't get much out of this.
I don't know why this happens.

There is no such thing as half formed thought. "before you have finished authoring it" made me laugh. I try to think how would it look when I'm half way through authoring my thoughts and I can't stop laughing.
I simply can't think how that would look.
Or is there an infinite number of words somewhere stored hidden from sight, and you go there and choose and pick the words and the grammar structures to create a thought?
Or do you create the words themselves, letter by letter?
I can't find that storage.
No place to get words and no, I don't create them letter by letter. Letters only make words look different and make them readable.

Process of authorship can't be described. It is not found.


Hopefully this went better. I tried to keep answers short.

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Mon May 27, 2019 1:05 am

Hi Arc,
I can see that. Problem solver can't be found in AE.
It still feels very real, but it doesn't correspond with the AE.
How does the problems solver is actually felt?
Find this feeling. Where is it? What is it exactly?

So, what is the thinker of thoughts? – look at the AE

What can a thought do?
Does a thought have volition?
Can it manipulate other thoughts or think new thoughts?

What does generate thoughts?
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?


It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Mon May 27, 2019 11:17 pm

Hi Vivien!

These are very difficult to answer.
How does the problems solver is actually felt?
Find this feeling. Where is it? What is it exactly?
It can't be felt. Only when there is a thought which is "answer to problem" it results an action. Movement or speech.
I can't find it. I don't know.
So, what is the thinker of thoughts? – look at the AE
There is no actual experience to be sensed. Only thought.
What can a thought do?
Does a thought have volition?
Can it manipulate other thoughts or think new thoughts?
Thought can result an action and/or lead into next thought.
Yes and no. Some thoughts are random and new, some of them are limited and related to my memories.

It can do that. In some way at least.

What does generate thoughts?
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?
Actual experiences generate thoughts or result them.

I don't know. Thoughts I have, relate to my experiences. Closest thing they belong to is this body, which had the experiences.
I don't know what owns thoughts. This body has/owns the experiences or memories about them. And no, I can't point a place where they are located.
But that was the only thing that comes to mind.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
Kind of like all of those. Thought could make all of those statements appear as real, but I can't find a clear pattern.
Thought also appears related to AE:s, but after that they relate more like into previous experiences.
Some thoughts just appear somewhat randomly.


I found these very hard to answer. I can't find AE:s when thoughts are generated. I can only find memories or AE which give some guidelines to thoughts, but no matter what I do I can't find any AE in thoughts or when they are created. Process or doer can't be sensed in any way. Neither I can point its location. Again, science would say that thoughts are created in my brain, but it's impossible to confirm exact point or process.

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Tue May 28, 2019 1:33 am

Hi Arc,

Here is an exercise to help you how to look at thoughts. This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 5-10 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
3. Then wait for the next thought to come.
4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:
Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

After doing this exercise and getting familiar with it, I’d like to ask you to use this exercise BEFORE EACH QUESTON bellow. This will help how to look at thoughts, rather than just write down what thoughts ‘has to say’ about the matter.
V: What can a thought do?
Does a thought have volition?
Can it manipulate other thoughts or think new thoughts?
A: Thought can result an action and/or lead into next thought.
Yes and no. Some thoughts are random and new, some of them are limited and related to my memories.
It can do that. In some way at least.
“A thought can result an action and/or lead into next thought” – look with the help of the exercise above.

Where is the link or the proof that the next thought was the result of the previous thought?
Is there a thread linking together the first and the second thought?
Or that ‘one thought lead to a next thought’ is just another thought?

And how is it known exactly that a thought can result in action?
There is a thought present, then there is an action. Where is the link? Just because another thought ‘say’ so?

Look very carefully. What can a thought do? Is thought some kind of entity that could perform all sorts of actions, like producing another thought, initiating an action, etc? Or these assumptions just the content of another thought?
Actual experiences generate thoughts or result them.
Actual experience generates thoughts? This sentence doesn’t make any sense.
Thoughts I have, relate to my experiences. Closest thing they belong to is this body, which had the experiences.
This reply didn’t come from looking at the AE. It’s just a thought interpretation.

“Thoughts I have” – what does the word ‘I’ point to in this sentence? – don’t think, but LOOK
Where is this ‘I’ EXACTLY that supposedly have thoughts?
Where is the ‘I’ EXACTLY that has experiences?
I don't know what owns thoughts. This body has/owns the experiences or memories about them. And no, I can't point a place where they are located.
But that was the only thing that comes to mind.
“But that was the only thing that come to mind” – but I didn’t ask you to think about it, but rather LOOK.

What is the AE of the body owning or having the memories?

Where is the EXACTLY LOCATION, where memories are stored? – don’t think, but look for the storage place
I found these very hard to answer. I can't find AE:s when thoughts are generated. I can only find memories or AE which give some guidelines to thoughts, but no matter what I do I can't find any AE in thoughts or when they are created. Process or doer can't be sensed in any way. Neither I can point its location.
And what is the implication of not finding anything that generates thoughts, nor the process or location?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Tue May 28, 2019 9:43 pm

Hi Vivien,

I'll answer, but it will take some time. My dog got really sick and is going to an emergency surgery tomorrow morning. I'm sorry, but I can't answer right away, I have to take care of her first. I will reply, as soon as I can. But it might take a day or two, depending on a situation we have in here.


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