Seeking guidance from Kay

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
djother
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:16 pm

Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby djother » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:20 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

seeing through the subject/object divide or illusion of a subject. seeing experience directly without the associated concepts of a "me, my and mine". Looking directly at and deconstructing the idea of a self and evaluating its validity

What are you looking for at LU?

A structure and framework for how to approach this understanding. Guidance from someone who can help me see my blind spots and limitations. A format for how to deconstruct the ideas I hold that may be faulty and to see what is really going / true.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

difficult questions. frank confrontation, alternative ways of looking at reality and experiece. a structure to follow and an outside perspective which can serve to challenge my internal unquestioned assumptions. also some understanding of where I'm coming from and an idea of how to get past my current "stuck" situation

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

meditation for 5 years. I spent the last 3 years in the TAT foundation working in an email group with a teacher and found the questions never really hit home for me. I also attended 3 retreats and used to watch a lot of youtube videos on the topic. Lately those don't trigger any interest for me. I also read books on Nisargadatta and Richard Rose among many others

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 4773
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:20 am

Hi Djother,

I am very sorry for not responding to your thread earlier, but I hadn't been notified that you had specifically asked for me.

I am happy to assist you in exploring the idea of the separate self. At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

By what name can I call you?

Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/


“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
djother
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:16 pm

Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby djother » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:44 am

Hi Kay

No problem.

You can call me DJ please

Yes I read the terms and disclaimer and agree

Ready to proceed when you are

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 4773
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:53 am

Hey DJ,

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and learning how to use the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look like; what life will feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc. Could you please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:-

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
djother
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:16 pm

Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby djother » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:22 pm

How will life change?

Probably it won't change much, if at all.
I do however have a hope that life will become easier if I see through the illusion of self, in that I will have less attachment or sense of ownership to things, including feelings or responsibility, free will etc

How will you change?

I feel the sense of having or being a self to be a burden, like a weight within the body - I hope this will change or disappear. I figure also that I will be free of selfish tendencies if there is no self

What will be different?

I imagine that mostly myself and how I function will be different - more than anything else in the view anyway

What is missing?

Within my current life; a sense of purpose, satisfaction, ease, joy and freedom

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 4773
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:30 am

Hello DJ,

The purpose of these questions, were for you and I to become aware of any expectations you may have of what having the realisation may look like or feel like. Expectations have a habit of getting in the way of the exploration and blind siding the fact that the realisation has happened. There is nothing to be done with expectations other than to be aware of them and any others that appear as we move through this exploration. Also be aware that when desired expectations are not met, fear, anger, resistance, resentment, frustration can arise. Let me know if and when this happens so we can look at them together. So watch what arises for you when reading my responses.
How will life change?
Probably it won't change much, if at all.
I do however have a hope that life will become easier if I see through the illusion of self, in that I will have less attachment or sense of ownership to things, including feelings or responsibility, free will etc
There has NEVER been a separate self that is having feelings or has responsibilities or free will. These are simply concepts that needs to be seen through.
How will you change?
I feel the sense of having or being a self to be a burden, like a weight within the body - I hope this will change or disappear. I figure also that I will be free of selfish tendencies if there is no self
Does a 'feeling' know anything about a self? Does the 'feeling' itself suggest in any way that it is a self?
So the illusory “I”, a non-existent “I” feels like it is a heavy burden and resides in a place called the body and has selfish tendencies. That is an appearing thought that has nothing to do with an “I”. It is simply a thought…there is no thinker of thoughts.
What will be different?
I imagine that mostly myself and how I function will be different - more than anything else in the view anyway
Where does this imaginary “I” exist exactly that can imagine a further “I” that will function differently?
What is missing?
Within my current life; a sense of purpose, satisfaction, ease, joy and freedom
There is no ‘you’ that is living life or that is controlling life. Life simply life’s and is controlled by no one/no thing!

Okay, now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour (image), sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment. You are looking at the raw experience of AE and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

So first we become aware of what AE is and how it is used to ‘look’.

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
djother
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:16 pm

Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby djother » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:26 am

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).
I hear music in the background - the song will likely change by the time we do part 2

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 4773
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:58 am

Hi DJ,
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).
I hear music in the background - the song will likely change by the time we do part 2
That's okay, as long as the same sound can be heard ie music

Now look carefully at what I am pointing to in the following exercise, and answer from direct (actual) experience only ie colour, sound, thought, smell, taste or sensation, and not an intellectual answer

Please repeat the exercise and tell me:-

Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is music?
In other words, what is it that suggest the sound is music?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘music’? ‘


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
djother
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:16 pm

Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby djother » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:03 pm

Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is music?
In other words, what is it that suggest the sound is music?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘music’? ‘
Without thought it isn't music, it's just sounds
The previous memory and comparing of similar sounds lets me know it's music - I guess these are thoughts and conceptual processes
The memory and comparing seems so automatic though - it's almost impossible to separate it from the sound itself

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 4773
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:42 pm

Hey DJ,

Could you please answer questions individually and not lump them together. Many thanks.

You did not answer this question, would you please answer it.

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘music’? ‘
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is music?
In other words, what is it that suggest the sound is music?
Without thought it isn't music, it's just sounds
The previous memory and comparing of similar sounds lets me know it's music - I guess these are thoughts and conceptual processes
The memory and comparing seems so automatic though - it's almost impossible to separate it from the sound itself
Yes, thought is overlaying the AE of sound and labelling it 'music'.
There is no “I” that is comparing anything or that has a memory. There are thoughts ABOUT sound which are concepts. Thought, in and of itself contains no experience, if it did you would be able to taste the word ‘sweet’. Thought either points to AE or it points to thoughts about thoughts.

In other words, a thought, in and of itself is like a container. The content of a thought is what a thought is ABOUT
When a thought is seen only as a container, and the content of a thought (what it’s about) is being ignored - this is what is called actual experience of a thought. So, we can say, that in actual experience, the arising of a thought (the container) is real, but what it’s ABOUT, the content, is not. The thought (as container) is there in reality, but the content of a thought is fiction.
Do you see the difference

But yes…the interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with,and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience

The following exercise points to what I mean.

For this exercise you will need an apple or any other piece of fruit will do.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest