Confusion to Clarity

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 1633
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am

Re: Confusion to Clarity

Postby Vivien » Tue May 14, 2019 1:55 am

Hi Graham,
I can completely get the no control over inputs but can we explore the outputs such as action, volition, intention, decision making so I'm 100% clear on 'control'.
All right. We will look at this until it gets 100% clear.

Lie down onto a bed. Observer very carefully how the decision arises to get up.

Can a self be found making the body leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up comes from?
What makes the body get up?
Is there a ‘you’ that commands the body?
When lying there, shout 'GET UP' internally as loudly as you can. Does that affect the outcome?


Repeat this with sitting in a chair. Describe in detail the decision of standing up.
How does the decision happen exactly?
Does a self come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences?
Or does standing up just happen, or not, without any doer?
What makes the body to stand up?


Now let’s investigate intention.
Sit in a chair and observe how the intention of standing up happens.
How is it known that there is an intention to stand up?
While sitting there, say internally several times ‘I intend to get up’. What happens?
What is it that made the intention to get up?

Now, zoom onto the intention (of getting up) very closely. Look at the intention itself directly.
Stare at the intention itself. Not the thoughts of “I intend to get up”, but THE intention itself.
Can you locate THE intention itself?
How the intention is actually experienced?


Vivien

User avatar
Rufus
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:29 pm

Re: Confusion to Clarity

Postby Rufus » Tue May 14, 2019 1:47 pm

Hi Vivien,
Lie down onto a bed. Observe very carefully how the decision arises to get up.

Can a self be found making the body leave the bed?
No. In some cases the thought "Get up" is there but the thought is just a thought and can't make the body leave the bed.
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up comes from?
From nowhere- it just arises- either with a thought arising or just on its own.
What makes the body get up?
Nothing 'makes' the body get up- it either responds to an arising thought or it doesn't.
Is there a ‘you’ that commands the body?
No- thought SEEMS like the 'me' commanding the body but this is just thought.
When lying there, shout 'GET UP' internally as loudly as you can. Does that affect the outcome?
No- either get up or I don't- it doesn't affect the outcome.
Repeat this with sitting in a chair. Describe in detail the decision of standing up.
How does the decision happen exactly?
A thought arises- "Stand Up"- and the body stands with no controller controlling the movements, balance etc- or standing up occurs as a reaction to a stimulus ie the doorbell ringing.
Does a self come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences?
No- thought may weigh up the pros and cons but that is just thought arising.
Or does standing up just happen, or not, without any doer?
It just happens.
What makes the body to stand up?
Nothing 'makes' the body stand up- it either does or it doesn't

Now let’s investigate intention.
Sit in a chair and observe how the intention of standing up happens.
A thought arises- "I need to go and do xyz". Standing up happens automatically without a 'controller'.
How is it known that there is an intention to stand up?
The thought "stand up" is 'thought-aware-d' or there is no intention at all but rather a reaction.
While sitting there, say internally several times ‘I intend to get up’. What happens?
In this example- nothing. 'I intend to get up' is seen or aware-d and I either get up or I don't.
What is it that made the intention to get up?
Thought arising from nowhere or a reaction.
Now, zoom onto the intention (of getting up) very closely. Look at the intention itself directly.
Stare at the intention itself. Not the thoughts of “I intend to get up”, but THE intention itself.
Can you locate THE intention itself?
No I can't.
How the intention is actually experienced?
I can't experience it as such. I can't smell, taste, touch, see or sense it. The best I could say is that it's an 'urge' but that can't be found either.

Thanks,
Graham

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 1633
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am

Re: Confusion to Clarity

Postby Vivien » Tue May 14, 2019 11:39 pm

Hi Graham,

Great looking!
V: How the intention is actually experienced?
R: I can't experience it as such. I can't smell, taste, touch, see or sense it. The best I could say is that it's an 'urge' but that can't be found either.
So there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT intention, but intention as such cannot be experienced.
‘Intention’ is nothing else than the content of a thought. Can you see this?

Look very-very closely during the day, when decision seemingly happens (almost every minute). Then you’ll have plenty of opportunity to observe what is really going on.

Pay very close attention to thoughts. Decision seemingly happens in thoughts. Look very carefully how thoughts about a chooser, or choice or decision appear.

For example, when you sit in front of your computer, how is the decision made when to move the hands to type?
How is the decision is made which finger to move when typing?
How is the decision exactly made what to type?


When finished, just sit there. And see if there is a decision to sit there a bit longer, or to stand up to do something else.
How is the decision made to stay sit or to stand up?
What is making the decision to stand up?


When eating, observe very carefully. How is it chosen which piece of food to put onto the fork and eat next?
How is it decided EXACTLY to choose the pea, the rice, the carrot (or whatever is on the plate) to be the next?
What is the ‘thing’ that is making the decision about the next piece of food?
What is moving the hand to pick the ‘chosen’ piece of food?


When driving, observer very carefully how is the decision exactly made to turn left or right?
When braking, how is the decision made to press the brake pedal?
What is moving the leg?
What is moving the hands?

When dressing up, how is the decision is made what clothes to choose?
Observe the movements of dressing up. How is the decision is made when to lift the arms or legs, and which clothes to put on first?
What is making the decision? - Find the location


When showering and towelling, how is the decision made where to move the hands, and in which sequence towel the body?

When shopping in a supermarket, observe the thought processes how the decision is made which line to go in?
What is moving the body?


Look at every seeming decision and movements during the day. Let me know what you find.

Vivien

User avatar
Rufus
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:29 pm

Re: Confusion to Clarity

Postby Rufus » Wed May 15, 2019 2:39 pm

Hi Vivien,
‘Intention’ is nothing else than the content of a thought. Can you see this?
Yes
For example, when you sit in front of your computer, how is the decision made when to move the hands to type?
How is the decision is made which finger to move when typing?
How is the decision exactly made what to type?
The decision isn't made when to move the hands but rather happens automatically. There is no 'controller' moving the hands- they just type. As I type, thought arises with the suggested content of what to type and the hands automatically follow or they don't. There is no thought that 'commands' "type letter 'A' now type letter 'B'"- it just flows AS IF THERE IS A CHOOSER- but this is just thought arising.
When finished, just sit there. And see if there is a decision to sit there a bit longer, or to stand up to do something else.
How is the decision made to stay sit or to stand up?
What is making the decision to stand up?
A thought may arise- "I' need a break"- and I either get up or I don't, followed by another "Keep writing"- and I either get up or I don't or "Don't forget to pay that bill"- and I either do or I don't. The CONTENT of thought suggest this or that, from nowhere, and the decision itself just flows- happening or not happening.
When eating, observe very carefully. How is it chosen which piece of food to put onto the fork and eat next?
How is it decided EXACTLY to choose the pea, the rice, the carrot (or whatever is on the plate) to be the next?
What is the ‘thing’ that is making the decision about the next piece of food?
What is moving the hand to pick the ‘chosen’ piece of food?
There is no chooser but the CONTENT of thought may suggest that piece of food over a different piece of food. The process of eating just flows- thought after thought suggesting this or that and decisions 'just happening'. Sometimes there doenst even seem to be thought present as suggestions but rather the plate of food is 'sightaware-d' and actions just follow with no thought suggestions. Nothing move the hands- they just react to the flow of thought suggestions or 'sightaware-ing'. There is no 'thing' that does this- any sense of a 'me' deciding or choosing is just though labelling the action undertaken as 'mine' or 'my choice'- but this is just thought content, sensation and thought labels combined to make a false 'me'
When driving, observe very carefully how is the decision exactly made to turn left or right?
When braking, how is the decision made to press the brake pedal?
What is moving the leg?
What is moving the hands?
Nothing decides- thoughts arise with a suggested left or right turn and a decision is made. Pro's and Con's of a left turn over a right turn may arise as thought content but the decision just happens. Braking and steering just happen- when required. No-one moves the legs, no one moves the legs. Thought labels these actions as 'me' the doer but this is incorrect. It pefectly explains how one could be driving dow the road "lost in thought" and still accelerate, brake, turn the wheel etc without any 'doer' involved. I think we've all had experiences of arriving at our destination without 'directing' the actions of getting there and thinking "How did that happen?"
When dressing up, how is the decision is made what clothes to choose?
Observe the movements of dressing up. How is the decision is made when to lift the arms or legs, and which clothes to put on first?
What is making the decision? - Find the location
Thought arise- "I'll wear this or that because of this or that reason"- thought content. A decision is made or happens from nowhere by no-one. The actions of dressing just happen.
When showering and towelling, how is the decision made where to move the hands, and in which sequence towel the body?
No decision is made- it just happens
When shopping in a supermarket, observe the thought processes how the decision is made which line to go in?
What is moving the body?
A thought arises- "I need this or that". Thought then arises- "I should go down this aisle or that aisle". Decisions and actions follow or flow from that. This happens automatically, in the blink of an eye. Thought labels these thoughts and decisions as 'my thoughts', 'my decisions' thus creating a 'me' the doer, the chooser.
Look at every seeming decision and movements during the day. Let me know what you find.
There is a flow- thoughts arise from nowhere, decisions are made by no-one, actions are carried out without a 'controller'. There can be at times an 'observer quality' - a seeing of actions being carried out seemingly by 'me' but there is no observer- there is just seeing or 'sightaware-ing'. The thought arises as "I am observing" but this is just thought CONTENT being 'thoughtaware'd'.

The examples above could be classified as 'learned behaviour'- they are actions that have been undertaken thousands of times and are in a sense automatic. For instance, if I was learning to drive today there would not be the automatic quality of 'just driving' there. Could you speak to Learned vs Learned Behaviour in light of what I've written above?

Best,
Graham

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 1633
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am

Re: Confusion to Clarity

Postby Vivien » Thu May 16, 2019 2:09 am

Hi Graham,
You did an excellent looking!
The examples above could be classified as 'learned behaviour'- they are actions that have been undertaken thousands of times and are in a sense automatic. For instance, if I was learning to drive today there would not be the automatic quality of 'just driving' there. Could you speak to Learned vs Learned Behaviour in light of what I've written above?
“learned vs learned behaviours” – is this a typo, I’m not sure what you are referring here.

Do you say that there are certain behaviours that are not conditioned automatic responses?

If so, please write at least 3 examples from your own life (what is accessible right now), when it seems that the behaviour is not ‘learned’. Please describe it as much detail as you can what seems to give rise to a mover, a decider or anything similar. So then we can look at those examples and investigate them.

Vivien

User avatar
Rufus
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:29 pm

Re: Confusion to Clarity

Postby Rufus » Fri May 17, 2019 11:58 am

Hi Vivien,

It was a typo- I meant Learned vs Un-learned Behaviour.
If so, please write at least 3 examples from your own life (what is accessible right now), when it seems that the behaviour is not ‘learned’. Please describe it as much detail as you can what seems to give rise to a mover, a decider or anything similar
I'm clear on this now- whatever happens, irrespective of being learned or un-learned, decisions and actions just happen as I described in my previous post. I was attempting to make the distinction between those actions that could be viewed as automatic, such as driving- a learned behaviour and thus automatic- and those that might be new or un-learned such as learning to drive for the first time, but i see now that any behaviour whether learned or un-learned just happens with seeming control and thought content assuming a 'me' controller. In that respect I can't give you any examples.

Best,
Graham

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 1633
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am

Re: Confusion to Clarity

Postby Vivien » Sat May 18, 2019 1:46 am

Hi Graham,
I'm clear on this now- whatever happens, irrespective of being learned or un-learned, decisions and actions just happen
All right. So just to make to make sure:

Is it totally clear that there is no decider, chooser, mover, intention maker or anything that has a free will of any sort whatsoever?

If so, let’s start to investigate the body and sensations. The illusion of the self is not just simply coming from thoughts, but also from the belief that “I am the body” or “I have a body” or that this or that sensation is ‘me’ or the location of the ‘me’, or that this or that sensation is happening to ‘me’. So the thought label ‘this is me’ and the appearing sensations are welded together, creating a ‘sense of self’.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Vivien

User avatar
Rufus
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:29 pm

Re: Confusion to Clarity

Postby Rufus » Sat May 18, 2019 9:40 pm

Hi Vivien,

I’ll post on this tomorrow.

Best,
Graham

User avatar
Rufus
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:29 pm

Re: Confusion to Clarity

Postby Rufus » Sun May 19, 2019 7:45 pm

Hi Vivien,
Is it totally clear that there is no decider, chooser, mover, intention maker or anything that has a free will of any sort whatsoever?
Yes this is clear.
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
No
Does the body have a weight or volume?
No
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
No
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
No
Is there an inside or an outside?
No
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
There is no inside or outside- just sensation.
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
A sensation or series of sensations that thought labels 'my hand', 'my head' or 'my body'
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Just pure sensation, without thought labels.

Best,
Graham

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 1633
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am

Re: Confusion to Clarity

Postby Vivien » Sun May 19, 2019 11:46 pm

Hi Graham,

Nice looking. Let’s look at sensations a bit deeper.

With eyes closed, put one of the hands on a desk or a table. Pay attention only to the pure sensation.

Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that the hand is doing the touching?
Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a hand (subject) that touching the table (object), or is there only touching?
When all mental images and thoughts are ignored is there a ‘hand’ or a ‘table’ at all, or is there only touching (pure sensation)?


Can an ‘INHERENT FEELER’ be found?
Would anything that is suggested as the ‘feeler’, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?


--

Now, let’s see if there is a connection between a visual image and sensations.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the sight, the ‘object’ seen (hand).

But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the sight? In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?


So you can repeat this with all of the body parts below, one-by-one.
- feet
- legs
- arms
- belly
- chest
- head (looking into the mirror)

What do you find?

Vivien

User avatar
Rufus
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:29 pm

Re: Confusion to Clarity

Postby Rufus » Mon May 20, 2019 12:48 pm

Hi Vivien,
With eyes closed, put one of the hands on a desk or a table. Pay attention only to the pure sensation.
Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that the hand is doing the touching?
When paying attention only to the pure sensation it is only sensation. Thought content says "hand touching desk" and an image might arise of 'hand on desk' but when thought content and image are ignored there is just sensation.
Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a hand (subject) that touching the table (object), or is there only touching?
There is only touching when the subject/object thought content is ignored.
When all mental images and thoughts are ignored is there a ‘hand’ or a ‘table’ at all, or is there only touching (pure sensation)?
There is only pure sensation.
Can an ‘INHERENT FEELER’ be found?
Would anything that is suggested as the ‘feeler’, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
No.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight? In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?
The sensation is not coming from the sight but rather linked by thought and mental constructs and 'hand'. In other words, there is the sight which thought labels 'hand' and the sensation thought labels 'hand'. The sight and the sensation exist independently of one another until though links them both to create 'hand' or 'my hand'.
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
Yes. Again, sight and sensation are linked by thought with neither one 'contained' in the other.
So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
Yes- there is a sight and a sensation, operating separately from one another but amalgamated by thought to create 'hand' or my hand'.
So you can repeat this with all of the body parts below, one-by-one.
- feet
- legs
- arms
- belly
- chest
- head (looking into the mirror)

What do you find?
The same applies to all looking/sensing. With eyes closed I go the sensation of feet, legs, arms etc and separating out thought/memory/image from the sensation (quite difficult!) there is just sensation. In fact if I go to the pure sensation of 'body' there is just sensation or sensations with varying degrees of denseness (a concept I know but I'm trying to describe it!). With eyes open, there are sights of feet, legs, arms etc which exist independently of sensation but are linked to sensation by thought to create 'chest or 'my chest'.

The experiment is somewhat more difficult with looking in the mirror. With eyes closed there are sensations thought labels 'head' or 'my head' but without those labels there is just pure sensation (albeit more 'dense' than any other part of the body!). With eyes open there is a sight of what thought labels 'me'. It is rather more difficult to separate out the sight of 'me' from the thought 'that is me' but I can just about do it. What remains is a sight or 'pure sighting'. The sensations and sights of the head have the strongest linkage to 'me' thoughts.

Best,
Graham

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 1633
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am

Re: Confusion to Clarity

Postby Vivien » Tue May 21, 2019 12:39 am

Hi Graham,
The sensations and sights of the head have the strongest linkage to 'me' thoughts.
This is because the sense of self usually appears in the head. We will look at this soon.

But first let’s examine the solidity of the head.

Please IGNORE all thoughts and images of ‘head’ and ‘fingers’ and just answer from actual experience. Close your eyes and take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and keeping your eyes closed...

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation (labelled ‘pressure’) and thoughts ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the two pressure points, or are there just thoughts or images ABOUT something being in between them?

Without thought or mental image, how big is the head?
Without thought or mental image, does it have an inside or an outside?
Without thought or mental image, does it have a location?


Vivien

User avatar
Rufus
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:29 pm

Re: Confusion to Clarity

Postby Rufus » Tue May 21, 2019 11:56 am

Hi Vivien,
Close your eyes and take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and keeping your eyes closed...

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation (labelled ‘pressure’) and thoughts ABOUT a head?
It's just a sensation prior to thoughts about a head or any labelling.
Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the two pressure points, or are there just thoughts or images ABOUT something being in between them?
Again, just sensations. There is a spaciousness between the two points. Thoughts labels that space 'head'.
Without thought or mental image, how big is the head?
Un-knowable- the sensation 'head' has no border or reference point to indicate size.
Without thought or mental image, does it have an inside or an outside?
No.
Without thought or mental image, does it have a location?
The sensation/s of 'head' is/are real so in a sense is/are 'here' or 'present' in experience but I can't describe 'here' as a location as such.

Best,
Graham

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 1633
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am

Re: Confusion to Clarity

Postby Vivien » Tue May 21, 2019 11:40 pm

Hi Graham,
V: And is there anything between the two pressure points, or are there just thoughts or images ABOUT something being in between them?
G: Again, just sensations. There is a spaciousness between the two points. Thoughts labels that space 'head'.
Please, repeat this again. What is the AE of ‘spaciousness’?
How spaciousness is experienced?
The sensation/s of 'head' is/are real so in a sense is/are 'here' or 'present' in experience but I can't describe 'here' as a location as such.
Yes, but what we call as head, is nothing else than sensations. Can you see this?

Look at whatever is in front of you.
It is seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view?
Now focus on the sensation labelled ‘eyes’. Is this sensation doing the seeing?
Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen?
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?


Vivien

User avatar
Rufus
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:29 pm

Re: Confusion to Clarity

Postby Rufus » Wed May 22, 2019 12:52 pm

V: And is there anything between the two pressure points, or are there just thoughts or images ABOUT something being in between them?
G: Again, just sensations. There is a spaciousness between the two points. Thoughts labels that space 'head'.
Please, repeat this again. What is the AE of ‘spaciousness’?
How spaciousness is experienced?
Ah- I see now that 'spaciousness' was just another thought attributed to the subtle sensations experienced between the two points.
The sensation/s of 'head' is/are real so in a sense is/are 'here' or 'present' in experience but I can't describe 'here' as a location as such.
Yes, but what we call as head, is nothing else than sensations. Can you see this?
Yes I can- but the question was about location and I was attempting to describe the location of the sensations. Thought is just labelling these sensations 'head'.
Look at whatever is in front of you.
It is seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view?
There are not two separate views representing one view from each eye but rather one combined view (like a windscreen!).
Now focus on the sensation labelled ‘eyes’. Is this sensation doing the seeing?
No- it's just a sensation.
Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen?
There is just what's seen. Seeing/seen cannot be separated. There is no 'thing' that is seeing. Thought labels seeing as "I am seeing" but this is false.
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?
There is just experience. As we discussed before there is no awareness waiting for an image, sensation or thought to appear but rather aware-ing happening simultaneously with their appearance.

Best,
Graham


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest