Understanding

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anigeka
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Understanding

Postby anigeka » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:06 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is in reality no separate entity doing things of it's own free volition. There is no "self". Everything attributed to a "self" is a bundle of thoughts and sensations that are very deeply engraved in the thinking process. It's this bundle that creates defensiveness and separation that is ultimately responsible for most, if not all problems.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking to end the illusion of there being a separate entity. I've discovered that that is where all the real existential pain comes from and I'm hopeful that my discoveries will cascade into helping others; whether though a similar discovery, or me feeling more connected to "others" and simply being kinder and more helpful given those realizations. I realize I'm under no small amounts of delusions of what the process or the outcome entails, and I fully realize that the person that wants this wants like it wants any material goody, but after a decade or so(I'm 23) of seeking for liberation in an unconscious way, I want to look where it actually is. And I and want to know that I'm looking the right way. I'm excited that there is a dedicated community(aside from satsangs which aren't a viable option for me) that is dedicated to this, and even more so excited about the prospect of conversing with someone who knows what they're talking about.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm hoping that some of the BS that has been so persistent in my thinking will be put on display and dispelled by clear insight. I hope to stumble upon some 'ah-ha' moments that will help deepen my search. It would also be really nice to speak to someone who knows what they're talking about. Listening to hours upon hours of different teachers say the same things over and over again, it's clear that it will take more than that(at least in my case) to make noticeable progress.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been practicing in one form or another for 4-5 years now. With bouts of meditative practices and a constant mindfulness practice. At this point, I'd like to think I'm very well aware of my thinking and emotional patterns. Upon discovering the self-inquiry method, this has been the crux of my practice, whether in sitting or active hours of my daily experience. It's become very self-evident that there is no "self", but that all thoughts are clearly a conditioned response to an inner or an outer environment, generally as a defensive measure. And although the mind "gets it", it's still very obviously not the liberation that is sought.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

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mpsi
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Re: Understanding

Postby mpsi » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:39 pm

Hi anigeka,

My name is Marcin and I can be your guide here if you like.

Do you want me to call you "anigeka" or would you prefer some other name?

Here are some guidelines:

- Please be 100% honest in your responses, and please answer from experience and not speculation.

- Please put aside any teachings, articles, videos etc. during this investigation. We want to get to the experience as it is.

- Please post daily to keep the momentum of the investigation. Let me know whenever you need more time.

- Please read the topic "Read this first" (the link: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/nati ... f=4&t=2109 )
and another one about using the quote function: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/nati ... ?f=4&t=660

Let me know when you are ready.

Thank you, and looking forward to walking through this with you! : )

Best wishes,
Marcin

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anigeka
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Re: Understanding

Postby anigeka » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:39 pm

Hi Marcin!

First of all, thank you for taking the time out for this. You can call me Yev if you'd like.

Looking forward to working with you!

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mpsi
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Re: Understanding

Postby mpsi » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:57 am

Hi Yev! Nice to meet you! :)

I assume you are ready to start, so let's start!
I realize I'm under no small amounts of delusions of what the process or the outcome entails, and I fully realize that the person that wants this wants like it wants any material goody
First, the process is quite simple: I'm going to ask you to do some exercises and to look what's happening, and then I'll ask questions whenever I feel a clarification is needed. Your task is to stick to the actual experience and try to describe it as truthfully as possible.

But before we start the investigation, I'd like to ask you about your expectations. It's good to understand them first, and maybe put them aside, because they may interfere with your effort. What you want to see is actually quite a simple thing. You already wrote one thing: you hope that ending the illusion of a separate self will allow you to help others. This is a noble intention, that certainly deserves being honored, and yes, realizing that there is no "self" is helpful in general. You also wrote about delusions regarding the outcome. Can you write what these "delusions" - or perhaps simply expectations - are? Please just write down everything you think liberation/awakening is going to do for you.

Thank you for your time too :)

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anigeka
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Re: Understanding

Postby anigeka » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:02 pm

Sure! Well, speaking from experience the body and the nervous system operate at their best when the "person" is least active. There's a lot less defensiveness and the thought stream is a lot less intense and is generally more benevolent in every definition of the word. I see the person as a collection of defense mechanisms that prevents the smooth flow of energy and general enjoyment of the life experience. I like the term "nirvana" as I understand it to simply mean an exhale. Like when you've been watching a very tense scene in a movie and then when it's finally over, your body relaxes with a deep exhale and the recognition that any need for stressing out is over. I presume full liberation is sort of like that. You recognize that you've been really engrossed in a film and for most, the film becomes quite a bit stressful to bear. I believe liberation is the continuous recognition that you are actually in the seat(or that you are the screen of the film itself as Rupert Spira puts it) witnessing the film, and that there is really nothing to worry about it, although the movie can always be made subjectively better regardless.

Thanks again for taking the time out!

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mpsi
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Re: Understanding

Postby mpsi » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:05 am

Hi Yev,
Sure! Well, speaking from experience the body and the nervous system operate at their best when the "person" is least active. There's a lot less defensiveness and the thought stream is a lot less intense and is generally more benevolent in every definition of the word. I see the person as a collection of defense mechanisms that prevents the smooth flow of energy and general enjoyment of the life experience.
Just a note on it: this investigation is not about getting rid of the "I" or the "person", nor about getting on a smoother road in life. It's about seeing what actually is, right now.

I like the term "nirvana" as I understand it to simply mean an exhale. Like when you've been watching a very tense scene in a movie and then when it's finally over, your body relaxes with a deep exhale and the recognition that any need for stressing out is over. I presume full liberation is sort of like that. You recognize that you've been really engrossed in a film and for most, the film becomes quite a bit stressful to bear. I believe liberation is the continuous recognition that you are actually in the seat(or that you are the screen of the film itself as Rupert Spira puts it) witnessing the film, and that there is really nothing to worry about it, although the movie can always be made subjectively better regardless.
Please remember that the concepts are only concepts, they are like signs pointing to the moon, They sometimes may be intricate and mesmerizing by themselves, but their usefulness is limited. Instead of relying on concepts and trying to find the moon within them, all you need to do is just to look at the moon.

Having said that, I have a question for you:

What comes up when I say "There is no separate entity self in real life at all. No manager, witness, experiencer as an independent entity in charge." Please report directly from experience: what comes up, what feelings, thoughts, sensations show up immediately upon letting this idea in.

With best wishes,
Marcin

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anigeka
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Re: Understanding

Postby anigeka » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:48 pm

Hi, Marcin!
What comes up when I say "There is no separate entity self in real life at all. No manager, witness, experiencer as an independent entity in charge." Please report directly from experience: what comes up, what feelings, thoughts, sensations show up immediately upon letting this idea in.
The experience is very similar to when I do self-inquiry by myself and that is empty space, for the lack of a better term. When I'm in this space, I can see that any emotion or thought is simply witnessed even if it has a "me" charge to it. Whenever an "I" does enter the picture, it's as a familiar sense of contraction that comes the closest to being associated with a "me".

All the best, Yev

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mpsi
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Re: Understanding

Postby mpsi » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:01 am

Hi Yev,
Whenever an "I" does enter the picture, it's as a familiar sense of contraction that comes the closest to being associated with a "me".
When an "I" enters the picture, what is it? Please look carefully.

The contraction, where does it happen? Is that really a contraction? Is that just a contraction? Is "I" actually present in that contraction?

There is an exercise that may be helpful, please do it, and write exactly as requested:

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you
can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct
experience) and report back how you go.

Best wishes,
Marcin

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anigeka
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Re: Understanding

Postby anigeka » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:20 am

Hi Marcin!

Upon investigation, no contraction actually contained an "I" in in, inherently. The exercise you recommended exemplified that any interaction with an objective experience(be it inner object such an emotion or an outer emotion such as a cup) can simply be labeled as an object. The contraction that I attribute "me" to isn't much different. It's simply a object that appears in the field of awareness.

Thanks and looking forward to your reply,

All the best, Yev

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mpsi
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Re: Understanding

Postby mpsi » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:23 am

Hi Yev,

Thank you very much for your response!
The exercise you recommended exemplified that any interaction with an objective experience(be it inner object such an emotion or an outer emotion such as a cup) can simply be labeled as an object.
No, the point of the exercise is quite different. I'll try to explain it a little bit:

The question we try to get answered here is “Is there "I"?". We want to find it or to conclude with 100% certainty that there is no "I" anywhere. So this is a kind of a hide-and-seek game. Imagine you're a child, and you're going to look where someone has hidden themselves. After you opened your eyes, what do you do? You look! You look at what is around. You look at everything, you identify all the potential hideouts and then check them one by one because you want to be sure you haven't missed anything. And you have to actually do that, right? If there are five or six big trees, you have to check every one of them. Usually, looking behind one of the trees is not enough to conclude with certainty "No, that person has not hidden behind any of them". So the point of the exercise is a little bit like this: we need to establish to some degree what actually is around us even before we start seeking.

What is around then? Are there "objects" there? Is "an emotion" or "a cup" an objective experience or something else? Are any "interactions" actually happening there?

So please go back to the exercise, and simply take note what is happening at some moment and then actually write all that down, labeling all the sensations as suggested and send what you wrote back to me.

With best wishes,
Marcin


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