post-seeing

[fghert]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
You guide willing people to see past the illusory self, to give up illusion

What are you looking for at LU?
I already got what I most wanted: freedom. I read Gateless Gatecrashers and it was totally effective in making me see past the illusory self. It's been about 4 weeks since total seeing and it happened just as that book said; it took a few days for complete seeing to set in and I haven't looked back, so to speak. I have noticed, however, that many beliefs and emotional baggage remain (albeit much less 'sticky' than before). I would like help in dealing with these leftover ideas that keep showing up in the mind. I have moments of seeing through them in some sense, and they seem to weaken, but they're still very much present in daily life. It could be that there's nothing else to do but continue what I'm doing. It could also be that I haven't completely seen through the self. I don't know for sure yet.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would like to understand more about what is happening now, what this stage of post-seeing consists of and how to best deal with it. Maybe there is a way to keep pointing and looking at leftover beliefs and ideas. I continue to look and write in a journal on my own but don't have much direction. It seems to help but more guidance might be helpful.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I never took it too seriously though I always knew there was something major to it, that it was vastly significant to us humans. In a non-serious way I kept looking at different spiritual books and teachers and thankfully happened upon Gateless Gatecrashers which was very effective for me.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Verananda]

Hi fghert,

we can look at these leftovers together.

please tell me more about:
what happend 4 weeks ago?
what has changed since then, what is same?

and what exactly are these leftovers you want to look at?

looking forward to our talk
love
verananda

[fghert]

Hello verananda, thanks for responding.

6-7 weeks ago I started reading gateless gatecrashers and had stretches of several days where I could feel the sense of self absent. The sense of self came back a few times but only for a day at most, then went away again. It hasn't come back in 4 weeks now. I really feel at this time that the self is gone and can't see it coming back, whereas before there was always a feeling that it would eventually, sooner or later, come back. Spiritual autolysis really helped me for about a year but the self would always come back (it's like it was always in the background somewhere, threatening to return, which it did). This, now, feels different.

Nothing has changed in the last 4 weeks, except that when old bullshit thoughts/beliefs/ideas come up, I see through them much more easily and that's not necessarily a goal of mine, it just happens because it's obvious--I can't avoid it lol. Although I guess it is a goal in a sense because those would be the leftovers I want to look at and get rid of (which might be one of the things LU is not🤷‍♂️). I might be confused about this goal. Examples of my leftovers would be the usual, common stuff such as, I want to advance my career, I want to be less strict with myself and accept me with all my flaws while also working on them. I encounter difficult situations in life and when reflecting on them I tend to think that I should be able to deal with them without any problems; I have no self, I don't exist! Why do I still feel bad? But I suppose it doesn't work that way. I should say that the "bad" feeling I just mentioned is nothing like it used to be. It really doesn't last long at all, but the thoughts behind it keep coming up on a daily basis nonetheless.

And what's the same in the last 4 weeks is the feeling that self is nowhere. BUT, even though there is no feeling of self, there's a belief that there must be a self because these ideas keep returning. It's like I want to deal with the ideas just to prove to myself that the self is indeed gone. I wonder if the self is still here...but as I write this, I think "no, where is it? I don't feel it."

Sorry if I'm unclear sometimes. Expression is not my strong suit. Also, if I'm too winded, I can keep it shorter in the future.

Thank you very much.

[Verananda]

fine!

sounds good!

Lets have a look at some of the aspects ....

Examples of my leftovers would be the usual, common stuff such as, I want to advance my career, I want to be less strict with myself and accept me with all my flaws while also working on them. I encounter difficult situations in life and when reflecting on them I tend to think that I should be able to deal with them without any problems;

integrating the shift needs time ... even if time is an illusion ....
here are a lot of thought? anything more?
I guess it is beliefes and thought you know very well for long time?
now you can see what it is: no I inside just repeated thoughts....
whats wrong with it?

I have no self, I don't exist!

that sounds like an "I" that says " I don't exist"?!
investigate this "I"!

Why do I still feel bad?

Its part of life. Feeling bad, angry, happy, sad, silent, .....
Why is one better that the other?
Who is judging?

It's like I want to deal with the ideas just to prove to myself that the self is indeed gone.

If truth is seen, the I is seen as illusion, just thought, nothing real.
It never was there, so nothing can go.
or is your experience different?
Who is playing this game of "its gone, its back, its indeed gone, its still there, "?

love ve

[fghert]

Hello. Hope you are well. Thank you for your guidance.

If truth is seen, the I is seen as illusion, just thought, nothing real.
It never was there, so nothing can go.

Right. Nothing can go. The I never was. So ideas that come up are nothing more than thoughts. But why do they come up? Do they serve a purpose whatsoever? They used to come up because the self was very much believed in, so the thoughts were a reflection of that. Why do they come up now?

no I inside just repeated thoughts....
whats wrong with it?

Nothing.

integrating the shift needs time

I guess that means there's a momentum to thoughts and ingrained beliefs and seeing through them happens naturally. Why does integrating need time?

Feeling bad, angry, happy, sad, silent, .....
Why is one better that the other?
Who is judging?

When I encounter situations in life, I can't help but believe in thoughts about them. But they're just thoughts, right? Sometimes they make me feel bad, but who is judging? Is it better to feel happy than angry? I guess not. I couldn't explain why one is better. They are just thoughts.

that sounds like an "I" that says " I don't exist"?!
investigate this "I"!

Sounds like I'm annoyed that old thought patterns keep coming up. Why am I always concerned with getting rid of thought? It's not the point, is it? The point is that no I is present. Thoughts are just thoughts. And there's nothing wrong with them. LOL

Thank you.

[Verananda]

But why do they come up? Do they serve a purpose whatsoever? They used to come up because the self was very much believed in, so the thoughts were a reflection of that. Why do they come up now?

why is a fatamorgana, a mirage in the dessert, still seen even after it is revealed as a illusion?
in direct expirience we can just see: there is thought.
Other anweres can only be found by producing more thought.
Can any thought be true?

I guess that means there's a momentum to thoughts and ingrained beliefs and seeing through them happens naturally. Why does integrating need time?

In direct experience there is just perception with senses here and now.
By the way: Does past an future exist in DE? Does anything exist in time?

But we life in this illusion, maya is playing its game, and in this game is the illusion of time ... old beliefes pop up from time to time, meet a new perspective, somthing changes ......

When I encounter situations in life, I can't help but believe in thoughts about them. But they're just thoughts, right? Sometimes they make me feel bad, but who is judging? Is it better to feel happy than angry? I guess not. I couldn't explain why one is better. They are just thoughts.

:-)

Sounds like I'm annoyed that old thought patterns keep coming up. Why am I always concerned with getting rid of thought? It's not the point, is it? The point is that no I is present. Thoughts are just thoughts. And there's nothing wrong with them. LOL

:-)

love ve

[fghert]

why is a fatamorgana, a mirage in the dessert, still seen even after it is revealed as a illusion?

I think a fata morgana is a play of light which means it will remain there as long as you have the perspective from the place you're looking from. Is that true of thoughts/ego/beliefs? Will they always be present? It's not like the human perspective which "I" inhabit will ever go away.

In direct experience there is just perception with senses here and now.
By the way: Does past an future exist in DE? Does anything exist in time?

But we life in this illusion, maya is playing its game, and in this game is the illusion of time ... old beliefes pop up from time to time, meet a new perspective, somthing changes ......

No. Time is certainly illusion. Nothing is ever experienced in the past or future.
Maya is illusion. Why does it exist? I don't know. To add another dimension to life, maybe? But it is surely false. It's like a world of its own. But it can be seen for its relativity, that is, it's not quite real.

Sometimes I feel a fear which is borne out of the sense that I'm leaving illusion behind (the self, probably). Like if I let go of everything, isn't something bad going to happen? But it is infrequent and short lived. It seems like I have something still hiding in there, something still being protected, but I don't know what or where it is. Is there a way to invite this feeling back, be more familiar with it and deal with it?

[Verananda]

I think a fata morgana is a play of light which means it will remain there as long as you have the perspective from the place you're looking from. Is that true of thoughts/ego/beliefs? Will they always be present? It's not like the human perspective which "I" inhabit will ever go away.

yes, sure, it's just a metaphor, they always limp a bit.
There is often the idea that all thought of "me", all beliefes dissappear forever
As you said "They used to come up because the self was very much believed in, so the thoughts were a reflection of that."
the key point is: thoughts are not a problem, we do not have to get rid of it, improve it, optimize it.
(Is there anybody who could do this?)
Like the fatamorgana, after it is seen through, we dont have to move towards it.
the whole effort can fall off.

Is there a way to invite this feeling back, be more familiar with it and deal with it?

its enough to look at it when it occures ...

Sometimes I feel a fear which is borne out of the sense that I'm leaving illusion behind

we can look at fear, what it realy is, in direct experience. What do you find?

Like if I let go of everything, isn't something bad going to happen?

Sound like control / no control.
Does this I that can let go or takes over control realy exist?
Does control exist (who or what can do it?)
Has it ever been there?
What is "control / let go" in direct experience?
What is control, if "Time is certainly illusion. Nothing is ever experienced in the past or future."?

Love Ve

[fghert]

Like the fatamorgana, after it is seen through, we dont have to move towards it.
the whole effort can fall off.

Yes, this is true. There is no effort to investigate each idea/concept as if my ultimate well-being depended on it. Thoughts occur but it's a simple reality that they're not very significant, don't hold any water.

What is "control / let go" in direct experience?
What is control, if "Time is certainly illusion. Nothing is ever experienced in the past or future."?

I've been letting go of control mainly because there is no one there to control anything. Often, control tries to happen but it is seen through and stops in its tracks. Control in direct experience is a thought. It's what it comes down to. But there is no one there to exert any control.
If time is illusion and nothing happens in past or future, control is a thought about past or future. The present is still the same as it ever was, thought or no thought. There isn't a self.

Isn't there some sort of control happening when belief is held on to?

You are a great help. Thank you Ve

[Verananda]

If time is illusion and nothing happens in past or future,

"If time is illusion" is a conditional ....?
Is it or is it not?
What is "past and future" in direct experience?

Isn't there some sort of control happening when belief is held on to?

investigate: what is "belief is held on to" in direct experience?
is belief other or more than thought?
can thought do anything?
who or what is it that could do this control?

Love Ve

[fghert]

"If time is illusion" is a conditional ....?
Is it or is it not?

I was just setting up the sentence...I already know that time is an illusion. I've known it for a long time, and it's funny how in the last year, time has slowed down a lot, although at the same time, I feel the preciousness of time--that this is the only life and it is incredibly valuable.

Anyway...I still get caught up in beliefs about what is happening, though it's much different than before. But when old beliefs come up, I still catch myself paying attention to them, giving them life. (Before, there was no awareness of identification with belief which was a whole other level of illusion.)

Belief is always a thought. Thought can't do anything, it's just thought in the head. There is no one there to control anything at all. Thoughts happen but they're not a problem because there is no one there to make it into a problem. Some teachers say that awareness gets caught up in belief, in mental activity, in emotion. But isn't awareness the same as everything else? Isn't that non-duality? Awareness is happening together with thoughts and everything else; nobody exists to separate anything into parts.

I think that I have to act a certain way, impress others. Who is impressing? Who is acting? There's a feeling that "someone" is acting and controlling but it's always a thought. Where is the "I" behind a thought? No one is there, no one exists. Thoughts happen, they form concepts but there's never an "I" in the back coordinating things, monitoring things and planning life.

investigate: what is "belief is held on to" in direct experience?
is belief other or more than thought?
can thought do anything?
who or what is it that could do this control?

Awareness follows belief (thought), but not really... Thought happens then it drops. Thoughts are just happening like everything else is happening. It happens then it doesn't. Everything is in a constant state of flow, change, shifting. Thought can't do anything because it's just thought. There's no one there to do anything with thought--there's no one there to do anything. Thoughts just happen, then they don't. Who is there to control anything? Everything just happens. When a belief comes up, it comes up as a thought and it exists as a thought. Thoughts are just thoughts and they lack substance or reality.

[Verananda]

But when old beliefs come up, I still catch myself paying attention to them, giving them life.

Who or what can give them life? Old beliefs = thought come up. Anything else?
What is this "giving life"?

Everything just happens. When a belief comes up, it comes up as a thought and it exists as a thought. Thoughts are just thoughts and they lack substance or reality.

:-)


so you sound very clear about that.
what leftovers are left over and we should have a look at?

Love Ve