Eshwar's student

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forgetmenot
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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:22 pm

Hello Catherine,
Never? I am sure that if you look again...the hand will SEEM to respond to the thought...turn.
I've done this exercise repeatedly and it is true that the thought of and actual turning happen together. I question the causal connection between the two.
I just wanted you to see that although it SEEMS as if the hand will sometimes respond to the thought and at other times not. So if thought were the actual catalyst...then the hand would turn every time the thought to turn it appeared. This happens with everything. The thought to get up a make a coffee may seem to prompt the action, but at other times you can have the thought and a coffee is not made.
I would like to you to do the sight-sensation exercise for an entire day...and not just a couple of times please. The more time you spend on an exercise the better you see it and see it properly.
Did you spend the time doing the sight-sensation exercise like I asked? I wanted you to see clearly that there is no correlation between the sight of the hand and the sensation. This can take some careful looking to see through it as it seems very convincing that the hand creates the sensation.

Here is a great video about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?



Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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morrisonch
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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby morrisonch » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:19 am

Hello Kay,

Thanks for the video. That was very helpful and entertaining.
yesterday, I had several unusual 'planned activities' and some unplanned 'demands' that took more time than normal, so I had only the morning to do the hand/sensation exercises. I can do more tomorrow and also the 2 drinks activity.

The experience you're pointing to is clear to me. Two immediate examples that come to mind are my normally daily walk and the other is housework, done 'as needed' or 'spontaneously'. Sometimes I plan to walk and the walk never happens, for no particular reason; at other times, it happens as 'planned'. The same is true for vacuuming & mopping floors, done 'as needed'. One day recently, without a thought, I found myself with vaccum in hand. In the last few days, I've also thought 'this floor needs mopping' and I have (or have not) followed through. In these cases, thought randomly pairs with the event.

Love, Catherine

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forgetmenot
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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:56 am

Hi Catherine,
The experience you're pointing to is clear to me. Two immediate examples that come to mind are my normally daily walk and the other is housework, done 'as needed' or 'spontaneously'. Sometimes I plan to walk and the walk never happens, for no particular reason; at other times, it happens as 'planned'. The same is true for vacuuming & mopping floors, done 'as needed'. One day recently, without a thought, I found myself with vaccum in hand. In the last few days, I've also thought 'this floor needs mopping' and I have (or have not) followed through. In these cases, thought randomly pairs with the event.
Terrific...that is clear then :)

Okay, I await your responses to the drink exercise.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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morrisonch
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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby morrisonch » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:12 pm

Hello Kay,
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
I did not choose the qualities. They seemed inherent in the two drinks, so they 'popped up' by themselves. While listing qualities, a preference for drink A arose, as it is my usual morning drink and has a sweeter, less bitter taste than B.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
The numbers were in the foreground (front seat), but I did not choose this arrangement. Also, I didn't choose to put the preferences in the back seat, they just 'hopped back' there themselves. I did not directly see a mental function operating, though there was a 'feeling' that I would choose A. I have seen this in other activities, too. I surprise myself many times by what I choose to attend, to do, to read, etc. In fact, I've recognized for quite some time that I need not 'plan' my day because it never unfolds the way I'd imagined or planned it would. Sometimes outside events insert themselves, but more dramatically, 'I' do not do what I 'plan' beforehand. There are some exceptions when I address certain tasks, pay bills, buy groceries, etc., but, even them, these are not done as I'd imagined they would be'. Most importantly, there is NO direct experience of 'a chooser' in this process. There's no function or facility operating as events unfold.
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
I didn't witness 'choosing'. In fact, I chose B instead of A, even though, beforehand, I'd thought I would choose A. That was the most surprising part of this exercise. So nothing announced itself as a chooser--instead a 'non-chooser' (which was NOT an entity) chose. So, it had no appearance, nor did it appear as a function.
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
I did have this feeling of choosing A over B, before the choice was made, but, in the end, that 'choice' wasn't made & 'I' did not choose. In February, before beginning these exercises, I took for granted that I choose, but my 'faith' in the agency of a 'self' continues to erode, and 'I' feel lighter, relieved. Step by step LOOKING, so rare in approaches to understanding 'self', really works. So thank you, Kay, for your patient, persistent guidance.

Love, Catherine

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forgetmenot
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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:03 am

Hey Catherine,

Nice looking with the drink exercise! :)
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
I did have this feeling of choosing A over B, before the choice was made, but, in the end, that 'choice' wasn't made & 'I' did not choose.
So can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
For example, can the feeling of wanting to go left instead of right actually choose which way to go?

In February, before beginning these exercises, I took for granted that I choose, but my 'faith' in the agency of a 'self' continues to erode, and 'I' feel lighter, relieved. Step by step LOOKING, so rare in approaches to understanding 'self', really works. So thank you, Kay, for your patient, persistent guidance.
That’s wonderful, Catherine! It seems like when we deconstruct the idea of the separate self...that with each layer the heaviness of the idea starts to lighten!

Okay, so we have looked at the idea of a controller, decider and chooser. Now let’s look at the idea of a doer/doership.

We’ll do a little exercise on this topic. It has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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morrisonch
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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby morrisonch » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:49 pm

Hello Kay,
So can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
For example, can the feeling of wanting to go left instead of right actually choose which way to go?
A feeling is a passive reporter, not an active agent, so it cannot choose. It can only register a 'sense' of choice, but it is not in it's nature, nor in it's capacity, to choose.
So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?
I do not have a choice NOT to see. Effortlessly, spontaneously, the eyes see the view before them. 'I' can neither alter the view, nor refuse to see what appears in it.
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
It is the same for the view on the left. It can't be altered. It can't be unseen & it can't be turned off.
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
I can not refuse to see 'black space' when my eyes are closed. With closed eyes, 'black space' is all there is to see.
Can you turn off seeing?
Seeing happens. 'I' can't turn it off any more than I can change the view of what presents itself in the view.
What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?
The 'chooser' did not choose anything. And a 'self' can not be found anywhere to do the choosing.
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
This critical question lies at the heart of these exercises: All I can KNOW is what I am AWARE of, and having NO CHOICE in awareness--or no choice of CHOICES, an 'illusory' chooser is 'CHOICE-LESS' & a functionless chooser can only be an illusion, a nonexistent entity. So there is no choice, & no 'self' to choose among 'fictitious' choices.

Love, Catherine

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forgetmenot
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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:45 pm

Hello Catherine,
So can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
For example, can the feeling of wanting to go left instead of right actually choose which way to go?
A feeling is a passive reporter, not an active agent, so it cannot choose. It can only register a 'sense' of choice, but it is not in it's nature, nor in it's capacity, to choose.
So, looking carefully, is the ‘feeling’ and actual sensation or is it just a thought?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
This critical question lies at the heart of these exercises: All I can KNOW is what I am AWARE of, and having NO CHOICE in awareness--or no choice of CHOICES, an 'illusory' chooser is 'CHOICE-LESS' & a functionless chooser can only be an illusion, a nonexistent entity. So there is no choice, & no 'self' to choose among 'fictitious' choices.
Lovely!

Okay, so let’s have a look at the body.
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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