Eshwar's student

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forgetmenot
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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:22 pm

Hello Catherine,
Never? I am sure that if you look again...the hand will SEEM to respond to the thought...turn.
I've done this exercise repeatedly and it is true that the thought of and actual turning happen together. I question the causal connection between the two.
I just wanted you to see that although it SEEMS as if the hand will sometimes respond to the thought and at other times not. So if thought were the actual catalyst...then the hand would turn every time the thought to turn it appeared. This happens with everything. The thought to get up a make a coffee may seem to prompt the action, but at other times you can have the thought and a coffee is not made.
I would like to you to do the sight-sensation exercise for an entire day...and not just a couple of times please. The more time you spend on an exercise the better you see it and see it properly.
Did you spend the time doing the sight-sensation exercise like I asked? I wanted you to see clearly that there is no correlation between the sight of the hand and the sensation. This can take some careful looking to see through it as it seems very convincing that the hand creates the sensation.

Here is a great video about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?



Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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morrisonch
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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby morrisonch » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:19 am

Hello Kay,

Thanks for the video. That was very helpful and entertaining.
yesterday, I had several unusual 'planned activities' and some unplanned 'demands' that took more time than normal, so I had only the morning to do the hand/sensation exercises. I can do more tomorrow and also the 2 drinks activity.

The experience you're pointing to is clear to me. Two immediate examples that come to mind are my normally daily walk and the other is housework, done 'as needed' or 'spontaneously'. Sometimes I plan to walk and the walk never happens, for no particular reason; at other times, it happens as 'planned'. The same is true for vacuuming & mopping floors, done 'as needed'. One day recently, without a thought, I found myself with vaccum in hand. In the last few days, I've also thought 'this floor needs mopping' and I have (or have not) followed through. In these cases, thought randomly pairs with the event.

Love, Catherine

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forgetmenot
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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:56 am

Hi Catherine,
The experience you're pointing to is clear to me. Two immediate examples that come to mind are my normally daily walk and the other is housework, done 'as needed' or 'spontaneously'. Sometimes I plan to walk and the walk never happens, for no particular reason; at other times, it happens as 'planned'. The same is true for vacuuming & mopping floors, done 'as needed'. One day recently, without a thought, I found myself with vaccum in hand. In the last few days, I've also thought 'this floor needs mopping' and I have (or have not) followed through. In these cases, thought randomly pairs with the event.
Terrific...that is clear then :)

Okay, I await your responses to the drink exercise.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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morrisonch
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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby morrisonch » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:12 pm

Hello Kay,
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
I did not choose the qualities. They seemed inherent in the two drinks, so they 'popped up' by themselves. While listing qualities, a preference for drink A arose, as it is my usual morning drink and has a sweeter, less bitter taste than B.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
The numbers were in the foreground (front seat), but I did not choose this arrangement. Also, I didn't choose to put the preferences in the back seat, they just 'hopped back' there themselves. I did not directly see a mental function operating, though there was a 'feeling' that I would choose A. I have seen this in other activities, too. I surprise myself many times by what I choose to attend, to do, to read, etc. In fact, I've recognized for quite some time that I need not 'plan' my day because it never unfolds the way I'd imagined or planned it would. Sometimes outside events insert themselves, but more dramatically, 'I' do not do what I 'plan' beforehand. There are some exceptions when I address certain tasks, pay bills, buy groceries, etc., but, even them, these are not done as I'd imagined they would be'. Most importantly, there is NO direct experience of 'a chooser' in this process. There's no function or facility operating as events unfold.
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
I didn't witness 'choosing'. In fact, I chose B instead of A, even though, beforehand, I'd thought I would choose A. That was the most surprising part of this exercise. So nothing announced itself as a chooser--instead a 'non-chooser' (which was NOT an entity) chose. So, it had no appearance, nor did it appear as a function.
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
I did have this feeling of choosing A over B, before the choice was made, but, in the end, that 'choice' wasn't made & 'I' did not choose. In February, before beginning these exercises, I took for granted that I choose, but my 'faith' in the agency of a 'self' continues to erode, and 'I' feel lighter, relieved. Step by step LOOKING, so rare in approaches to understanding 'self', really works. So thank you, Kay, for your patient, persistent guidance.

Love, Catherine

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forgetmenot
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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:03 am

Hey Catherine,

Nice looking with the drink exercise! :)
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
I did have this feeling of choosing A over B, before the choice was made, but, in the end, that 'choice' wasn't made & 'I' did not choose.
So can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
For example, can the feeling of wanting to go left instead of right actually choose which way to go?

In February, before beginning these exercises, I took for granted that I choose, but my 'faith' in the agency of a 'self' continues to erode, and 'I' feel lighter, relieved. Step by step LOOKING, so rare in approaches to understanding 'self', really works. So thank you, Kay, for your patient, persistent guidance.
That’s wonderful, Catherine! It seems like when we deconstruct the idea of the separate self...that with each layer the heaviness of the idea starts to lighten!

Okay, so we have looked at the idea of a controller, decider and chooser. Now let’s look at the idea of a doer/doership.

We’ll do a little exercise on this topic. It has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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morrisonch
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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby morrisonch » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:49 pm

Hello Kay,
So can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
For example, can the feeling of wanting to go left instead of right actually choose which way to go?
A feeling is a passive reporter, not an active agent, so it cannot choose. It can only register a 'sense' of choice, but it is not in it's nature, nor in it's capacity, to choose.
So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?
I do not have a choice NOT to see. Effortlessly, spontaneously, the eyes see the view before them. 'I' can neither alter the view, nor refuse to see what appears in it.
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
It is the same for the view on the left. It can't be altered. It can't be unseen & it can't be turned off.
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
I can not refuse to see 'black space' when my eyes are closed. With closed eyes, 'black space' is all there is to see.
Can you turn off seeing?
Seeing happens. 'I' can't turn it off any more than I can change the view of what presents itself in the view.
What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?
The 'chooser' did not choose anything. And a 'self' can not be found anywhere to do the choosing.
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
This critical question lies at the heart of these exercises: All I can KNOW is what I am AWARE of, and having NO CHOICE in awareness--or no choice of CHOICES, an 'illusory' chooser is 'CHOICE-LESS' & a functionless chooser can only be an illusion, a nonexistent entity. So there is no choice, & no 'self' to choose among 'fictitious' choices.

Love, Catherine

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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:45 pm

Hello Catherine,
So can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
For example, can the feeling of wanting to go left instead of right actually choose which way to go?
A feeling is a passive reporter, not an active agent, so it cannot choose. It can only register a 'sense' of choice, but it is not in it's nature, nor in it's capacity, to choose.
So, looking carefully, is the ‘feeling’ and actual sensation or is it just a thought?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
This critical question lies at the heart of these exercises: All I can KNOW is what I am AWARE of, and having NO CHOICE in awareness--or no choice of CHOICES, an 'illusory' chooser is 'CHOICE-LESS' & a functionless chooser can only be an illusion, a nonexistent entity. So there is no choice, & no 'self' to choose among 'fictitious' choices.
Lovely!

Okay, so let’s have a look at the body.
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby morrisonch » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:48 pm

Hello Kay,
So, looking carefully, is the ‘feeling’ and actual sensation or is it just a thought?
'Feeling' is a sensation. It is not just a thought.
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Without reference to thought, the body has no height, no weight, no shape or volume. In AE, the body is shapeless and formless.
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Without reference to thought, there is no boundary between the body, the clothes or other objects (such as chairs) which touch it.
Sensation is not located in space, so when objects contact the body, there is only sensation.
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?
There is no inside or outside of the body. Without thought & since sensation is not locatable in space, it is not experienced as either 'inside' or 'outside' of a 'body' or as arising from 'anywhere' in particular.
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
The word/label 'body' refers to physical sensations & the AE of the 'body' is the experience of feeling these bodily sensations.

Love, Catherine

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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:19 am

Hello Catherine,
So, looking carefully, is the ‘feeling’ and actual sensation or is it just a thought?
'Feeling' is a sensation. It is not just a thought.
So, if you say, I FEEL I should have a glass of water instead of orange juice ….is that an actual sensation or is it simply a thought?
If the thought "I have a feeling that we should turn left here" an actual sensation or just a thought?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Without reference to thought, there is no boundary between the body, the clothes or other objects (such as chairs) which touch it.
Sensation is not located in space, so when objects contact the body, there is only sensation.

Yes….so can you see that without thought nothing is really known? Experience is self-aware and doesn't need thought to know itself?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?
There is no inside or outside of the body. Without thought & since sensation is not locatable in space, it is not experienced as either 'inside' or 'outside' of a 'body' or as arising from 'anywhere' in particular.
So does the body’s eyes see?
Does the body’s ears hear?
Does the body feel?
Does the body taste or smell?
Does the ‘head of the body’ think?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
The word/label 'body' refers to physical sensations & the AE of the 'body' is the experience of feeling these bodily sensations.
There is NO actual experience of a body.
Thought points to sensation and labels it the ‘body’.
The WORD/LABEL ‘body’ actually refers to the AE of thought

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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morrisonch
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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby morrisonch » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:46 pm

Hello Kay,
So, if you say, I FEEL I should have a glass of water instead of orange juice ….is that an actual sensation or is it simply a thought?
If the thought "I have a feeling that we should turn left here" an actual sensation or just a thought?
I see that the 'feeling' about the drink is a really a thought & so is the 'sensation' of turning.
Yes….so can you see that without thought nothing is really known? Experience is self-aware and doesn't need thought to know itself?
And I can also see that thought is needed to really know. So, even though experience is self-aware, it can only be 'known' by thought.
So does the body’s eyes see?
Does the body’s ears hear?
Does the body feel?
Does the body taste or smell?
Does the ‘head of the body’ think?
The body's eyes do see; its ears hear, its tongue tastes & it registers smell. Though self-aware, these sensations can only be 'known' by thought.

The 'body's head' does not think. No 'head' could think.

[This is obvious once pointed out. Despite your warning, I was 'thinking' again, imagining an infant's experience of sensation before thought develops.]

Love, Catherine

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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:05 am

Hello Catherine,
So, if you say, I FEEL I should have a glass of water instead of orange juice ….is that an actual sensation or is it simply a thought?
If the thought "I have a feeling that we should turn left here" an actual sensation or just a thought?
I see that the 'feeling' about the drink is a really a thought & so is the 'sensation' of turning.
Well you are seeing incorrectly. You aren't looking...you are just answering from thinking. We are not talking about the sensations that thought labels as turning! We are discussing the differences between what thought calls a feeling and what is the actual experience of a sensation. How can an actual sensation, if it appears be a thought?

Instead of going through your day to see if you can actually see the difference between a 'feeling' and an actual sensation…you are just answering from whatever (no idea where you are getting your answers from..but it isn't from looking or observing anything carefully).

There is no such thing as a ‘feeling’. There is either an actual sensation that is experienced, or if there is no sensation and the idea that there is a ‘feeling’ that you should do something, then that is simply a thought.

Just like saying “I have a FEELING I won't like that movie". Is that ‘feeling’ an actual sensation like an itch or fear? Or is it simply a thought? Check this out. Another example is a thought may appear saying “I have a FEELING it is going to rain later? Is that a thought or an actual sensation?
Let me know what you ACTUALLY FIND.

Yes….so can you see that without thought nothing is really known? Experience is self-aware and doesn't need thought to know itself?
And I can also see that thought is needed to really know. So, even though experience is self-aware, it can only be 'known' by thought.
What?????? Thought knows NOTHING! A thought is NOT NEEDED TO KNOW ANYTHING. You are not clear at all about thoughts. Do you really need thought to tell you that a thought, sound, colour, smell, sensation or taste has appeared?

Knowing ABOUT something is called knowledge (ie thought). Knowing what actually IS, is direct/actual. Nothing is known as in knowledge – only thought says something is known because thought SEEMINGLY knows it. What is direct/actual is known because it is THIS/experience itself. But in regards to knowledge, THIS is unknown.

Really contemplate that paragraph.
So does the body’s eyes see?
Does the body’s ears hear?
Does the body feel?
Does the body taste or smell?
Does the ‘head of the body’ think?
The body's eyes do see; its ears hear, its tongue tastes & it registers smell. Though self-aware, these sensations can only be 'known' by thought.

The 'body's head' does not think. No 'head' could think.

[This is obvious once pointed out. Despite your warning, I was 'thinking' again, imagining an infant's experience of sensation before thought develops.]
???????
Nope…you have missed the point completely. You do nothing but think your answers

I asked in the questions about the body:-

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?


You answered:-

There is no inside or outside of the body. Without thought & since sensation is not locatable in space, it is not experienced as either 'inside' or 'outside' of a 'body' or as arising from 'anywhere' in particular.

So to check that you had actually seen that there is no inside and outside a body, I asked you the following :-
So does the body’s eyes see?
Does the body’s ears hear?
Does the body feel?
Does the body taste or smell?
Does the ‘head of the body’ think?
You answered:-

The body's eyes do see; its ears hear, its tongue tastes & it registers smell. Though self-aware, these sensations can only be 'known' by thought.

The 'body's head' does not think. No 'head' could think.

[This is obvious once pointed out. Despite your warning, I was 'thinking' again, imagining an infant's experience of sensation before thought develops.]


How can something that doesn’t exist, hear, see, think, smell, or taste?
What is the AE of 'body'?

Even your thinking thoughts aren't logical! You answer all the 'correct' answers to the body exercise and yet you don't understand the meaning of the exercise. Did you find am actual body in that exercise? If not then, where is the body that is hearing, seeing, smelling, feeling and tasting?

I really want you to think hard on whether or not you are actually ready or wanting to do this exploration. Because you are not LOOKING and you are not putting two and two together. You are simply thinking. I suggest you go back and reread your thread SEVERAL TIMES and redo ALL EXERCISES several times so that you start to get what is being pointed at…because at this moment in time…you are not getting it. PLEASE take your time in doing this

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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morrisonch
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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby morrisonch » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:51 am

Hello Kay,
I really want you to think hard on whether or not you are actually ready or wanting to do this exploration. Because you are not LOOKING and you are not putting two and two together. You are simply thinking. I suggest you go back and reread your thread SEVERAL TIMES and redo ALL EXERCISES several times so that you start to get what is being pointed at…because at this moment in time…you are not getting it. PLEASE take your time in doing this
This is worse than I'd imagined. I will take some time to go through the exercises and rethink everything and get back to you, in a few days. I should devote the next week to this & will contact you when I've rethought all of this.

Love, Catherine

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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:08 am

Hi Catherine....I don't want you to rethink it...I want you to actually look and see what you find when you LOOK.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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morrisonch
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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby morrisonch » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:44 pm

Hello Kay,

Despite my last two posts, I've gotten an enormous amount of clarity about the nature of thought and of the body from LU's Looking exercises. I feel ready to return to my lifelong pursuit of Vedanta, and am understanding Rupert Spira's talks regarding the 'Direct Path' which were previously unclear. For this and for your clear pointing, I am truly grateful. Thank you very much.

Love, Catherine

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Re: Eshwar's student

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:26 am

Hello Catherine, good luck

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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