I don't know anything absolutely.

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Ilona
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Re: I don't know anything absolutely.

Postby Ilona » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:41 pm

Lovely.
Are you ready for The final questions? :)
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Fallawake1
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Re: I don't know anything absolutely.

Postby Fallawake1 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:46 pm

Feeling excited. Yes

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Ilona
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Re: I don't know anything absolutely.

Postby Ilona » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:34 pm

Sweet! Here they are :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it ufully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Fallawake1
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Re: I don't know anything absolutely.

Postby Fallawake1 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:29 am

Hi Ilona.
Thank you again for every thing.
Love.



Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

For me being conscious and experiencing are synonymous.  Of course the mind is there only when a thought is experienced which is still very often in my experience.  Every ‘’object’’ of experiencing is inseparable from the experiencing of it, therefore inseparable from being conscious of it. 
Separate self isn’t in any of the experiencing.
It isn’t in the thought because even the thought ‘’I am separate’’ is experienced in consciousness and is not separate from it.
It isn’t in the feeling.  In my case I tried to feel the separation and it was impossible.  To be honest, in my experience, it’s quite the opposite, when the thoughts are less present to judge the feelings, any feelings brings to the present.
It isn’t in the body, body is a set of sensations and perceptions (touching, hearing, and seeing).  
Perceptions (touching): if I close my eyes and I touch a table.  Concentrating on the touching. Of course, at first there is an image of my hand and of the table in my mind.  But after a while it dissolves and either it’s being replace by a totally new, random, unrelated image but there is still in the background of consciousness the touching, or there is no more though (very rare) and there is pure touching.  And in that touching I can’t put a frontier to where the hand start and the table start.  It’s just touching. No separation.

Perceptions (hearing): if I close my eyes and I hear the clock ticking.  Concentrating on the hearing.  Again, image of the clock (thought) image of the sound waves (thought), image of my hear (thought). Dissolution/change of thought.  Hearing is still in the background.  No need to think about it.  It’s happening automatically.  Can’t say where the hearing start.  It’s just there. Happening. There is no separate self in the hearing.

Perceptions (seeing): Roaming the dining room where sitting whit the gaze.  Looking at my hand.  It’s just a different colour and shape than the rest.  But it’s not separate in any way.  Specific that’s it.  

The illusion of a separate body comes when we don’t pay attention.  

Sensations:  Inner body sensation, Strong sensation of tingling in the back of the head. Sensation of my abdomen and of the heart area.  Sensation of the face.  Sensation of the throat.  All those sensations happens in consciousness. They appear and disappear but can only be sensed with consciousness and there is no separation between these sensations and consciousness. 

There is nothing outside experiencing and it’s nowhere in the experiencing. So there is no separate self. 

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.


When we are kids the consciousness in us believes everything. Why does it believe everything? It needed to believe the others (parents, family) because they were it’s security. So it is natural to believe. Then we are told that some actions/feelings are bad and some others are good and we were punish or felt less loved if we did those actions or had those feelings that were considered bad. And the only thing we want as kid, is love and security. So right at that age consciousness reject those ‘’negative feelings’’ or ‘’negative behaviours’’. That refusal of those feelings or behaviours creates the illusion of separation. Something is bad so it’s not me. It’s basically a defence mechanism of the consciousness to protect itself from consequences of actions, feelings that are believed to be bad.  What will make that illusion emerges in the now?
When an event happens in the now that recalls that punishment or simply the feeling of being less loved in some way, the protection mechanism kicks in and there will be resistance.  If I do that or let that be, I won’t be loved. But that’s false because love is me. Even resistance, that was once believed to be at the root of a separate self, is not separate from Consciousness. It’s naturally part of it.

Example: I was five years old and the bus driver was upset with me because I was sick and I had vomited in the bus.   I felt less love because it was wrong. So being wrong brings the feeling of not being loved. So now everything that triggers the idea of being wrong is rejected because I believed that being wrong is bad. But being wrong is neither good nor bad. And even being wrong is relative to a point of view. And ultimately, something wrong now will be good at other times.

In my case, the illusion of a separate self was also often generated when there was a lot of thinking going on, then there was the thought that there shouldn’t be that much thoughts.  Right there, there is resistance in the form of a thought, to the thinking mind itself. It created a contraction in the body (sphincter). That resistance still happens but it’s not believed to be a separate self anymore. In fact, that resistance is noticed more and more.

Also, most of the interactions with people will still bring that resistance/contraction in the lower body. 

But, even that resistance/fear is not the separate self, because there is simply no separate self.

How does it feel to see this?

The heart beats faster.  I have tears in my eyes and my throat is tight. I feel a lot of compassion for myself (human journey) and everyone else.  

What is the difference from before you started the dialogue? Please report from the past few days. 

The difference is that there is Consciousness almost immediately of when resistance emerges.  But now, that resistance/fear is not believed to be separate. That resistance brings the Consciousness to the body, to the Present. Sometimes, it brings even more contraction, sometimes it brings relaxation.



What was the last bit that pushed you over made you look?

I couldn't tell exactly but I can relate a few experiences that were definitely eye opening.
Two years ago, I did a MDMA assisted session.  I was listening to some beautiful classical music properly selected. The mind was very chatty during the first hour and a half or so.  At some point, there was a very sad piece that made me have thought about death.  I guess that death was viscerally accepted for a moment then boom, it was Grace accompanied by the quietest mind I had ever experience.  It only lasted a couple of second. What happened is beyond word.  It was the deepest peace I have ever felt.  My hand went to my heart by itself.  

In November 2018, I was quietly walking home from the subway station in meditation. Then for a very brief moment, there was no outside or inside.  Still accompanied by a quiet mind. 

On February 22nd 2019, I was participating into a non-dual satsang. At some point the satsang leader was explaining something.  After a while she fell into a silence in the middle of her explanation.  At the very same moment I recognized there was irritation in me.  She immediately said: Irritation.  I shared that with her a few days after.  It’s all connected.

On March 4th 2019 I was meditating on the metro on my way to work.  I had my eyes closed and I was concentrating on the ambient sound.  Then for a very brief moment, I guess the best way to say that is that there was no distinction between me and the sound. Again, the mind was very quiet.

On March 6th 2019, I was participating in a yoga nidra class.  For the last ten minutes or so of the class, and it’s the first time it happens, the teacher started singing very softly. At first, concentrating on breathing.  At some point, starting to listen more to her.  For a while, there was an image of her in my mind.  Concentrating on it then it dissolved.  Right at that moment there was a moment of pure listening. Feeling the music in my heart, or more exactly, Hearing with my heart. It was so beautiful.  I cried.  Experiencing that consciousness is not located in the head.  From that experience there is the thought: Consciousness has it’s center in the heart area.


Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.


Decision, Choice:
From moment to moment, Consciousness chooses, it decides of everything. It chooses when we’re going to die. Consciousness in us chooses. It does it. Actions are made, words are spoken. On a relative plane, they seem to have consequences. On an absolute plane, nothing happened. The resistance/fear is also part of Consciousness, for a time at least. For the time being, choices seems to be made in resistance since the illusion of a separate self is being seen through again and again. It’s going to stabilize itself or not. What consciousness chooses is a matter of habit. It’s used to certain paths. In the case of my human journey, it’s like there was always that desire/love to suffer so Consciousness would choose it out of habit.  More and more, the desire/love not to contract/suffer emerges.  It comes in the desire to listen classical music, to hum, to concentrate deeply on something.

Free-will:
Since there is no separate self, there is no personal free-will. Consciousness has complete free-will. Consciousness concentrate on whatever it wants. The human journey is completely determined. I notice that there is still often what I can call ‘’little will’’. Those are wills that are consequences of fear/resistance. Example: There is a thought that is equivalent to: I don’t want to over-think, or any will that is in resistance to what is. They are the remnants of the past belief in a separate self and ultimately they point to where there is still a belief in a separate self. Another way of Consciousness to grow.


Intention:  Energy put toward something that comes from a desire/love. It’s a concentration of consciousness/energy. Consciousness concentrating on a form.

Contraction followed by relaxation.  The greater the contraction, the deeper the surrender.  In the Yoga nidra class I was in on March 6th the teacher made us do an exploration about concentration and relaxation.  At first when we were asked to concentrate, the thought came to concentrate on the breath.  The first movement is to think about breathing, so there’s a kind of tension in the head.  In my case, it’s like if to concentrate on something, there is first this movement of thinking about that thing. It is then followed by a relaxation/surrender of the thought and then there is true concentration.  The concentration is within the relaxation. 

It’s a never ending automatic movement.  Noticing it very often. There is nothing to do, it’s like breathing.

Control 
There is no control, no control of seeing, it happens automatically, same thing for hearing touching, tasting, smelling.  There is no control of the thinking.  Don’t know what’s going to be the next thought. There is no control of the feeling.  Don’t know what’s going to be the next feeling.  There is no control over our actions or the words we speak, which is just another action.  It’s mostly in response/reaction (reflexes, habits learned through imitation) to what’s happening in the present moment. It can also be in response to a desire/love that emerges also in the present moment.  But there’s no control over what is desired.  After that, whether actions are taken are not, it’s up to who’s winning between fear and desire/love.  But in the big picture, even the fear/resistance  is desired.  Ultimately, it points to where there is still a belief in separation.

What make things happen? How does it work?
Life/God/Universe/Consciousness.  Everything happens because there’s a desire from Life for it to happen. In my case, the mind is still very busy at finding explanation and reasons for things.  It all appears so effortlessly. I have the feeling that it’s just a big exploration of Consciousness into form.  Somehow, Consciousness, through the mind, puts a meaning on Life.  In that way, Consciousness gives itself its own meaning. But there is no meaning outside what is. Any explanation falls short because of the dualistic nature of language.  There is just that one Reality, and in each moment it is what it is, nothing more and nothing less.  Simple, beautiful, ever changing, always the same, ineffable, transparent, spacious, loving, contraction-relaxation, a show.

   
What are you responsible for?
The responsibility is to be Present to what is and see what the situation demands.  In that way, the responsibility comes moment by moment and we all do our best.

In the last two years, I have had many insights.  Recently, the main one was that ultimately, the teacher is in me, I have to look in me for answers.  Of course when looking, one sees everything that was hidden. I have had the chance to start that process a few years before, so the cleaning up was already started. After seeing, one can accept the human journey and heal that human by giving it love and space. For me, it has been through listening and sharing that a lot of work was done so far.  A lot can still be done and there is faith.  The responsibility is to heal that human journey.  Healing will bring healing in all my relationships. 

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Ilona
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Re: I don't know anything absolutely.

Postby Ilona » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:26 pm

Thank you for beautiful and full answer.
I can see how you look and find no separate self and only find consciousness. Lovely. I can see that you can describe experiencing and are opening beautifully.
Then I can see how your answers about control and free will are coming from logic and understanding. So from your answer I can pick up that some shift has happened, but not fully yet. There is more to dig. Because you put right words in right order it’s seems that you get this on some level.
You say that consciousness decides. Can you write more about it from your experience. Look at decisions that were made today and describe how they happened.

And here is one more question for you- are you consciousness?

Looking forward to your answers.
Love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Fallawake1
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Re: I don't know anything absolutely.

Postby Fallawake1 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:16 pm

Hi!
I first want to share what happened last night and this morning. After having shared with my girlfriend very honestly about sexuality, we went to bed. Couldn’t fall asleep. Started thinking about my heart. Then there was a desire to feel it. Then started having those thought about my girlfriend breaking my heart. Different scenarios: jealousy, betrayal. It brought a memory of a guy that said something in a satsang along the line of: Its when I started to live deeply my emotions that I really started to feel alive. Then there was again the thought of wanting to have my heart broken. I started crying and my throat was really tight. I could feel my heart but quite rapidly I was in the thought. Then a few sentences emerged that finished into that poem:

Can you still feel
This ardent flame
This burning desire
To be intimate with life

We often say that
Only when we lose a beloved
Do we realize the intensity
Of the love we feel

Break my heart a thousand times
So that over and over I can feel
The love I have for you.

We often say that
Tears are of joy or sorrow

But in Truth
Aren’t they all not tears of Love?

I of course shared with my girlfriend every thing I could remember that happened. It was really emotional for me. I had to let her read the poem.
Feeling that for now, what’s the most precious thing in my experience, is that capacity to feel.

I’m a bit confused about what can be considered as a decision so I used the broad sense of decision, meaning that petting my cat that’s on my lap count as a decision.

Here it is.
The cat come on my lap. Petting him because there’s the desire for it. Going to put the garbage outside because there’s a desire for it. Choosing to accept a dance contract because there’s a desire for security (money). Sharing with my girlfriend what happened yesterday night because there’s a desire for opening. Took the dish out of the dishwasher because there’s a desire for it. Smiling to my girlfriend because there’s a desire for it. Writing those lines because there’s a desire for it. Scratching my head because it itch. Going to the market because there’s a desire for it. My girlfriend ask me if I want to get a slice of pizza. Right there there’s the thought: that pizza is expensive Another thought: But it’s good. Then there’s the thought: still cheap with money and many other thoughts in those line. Finally , we do get the pizza and it was really good. There was the desire for it. Going to feed the cat because there’s a desire for it. Going to the bathroom to pee because there’s a desire for it. Taking a grape out of a bowl and eat it because there’s a desire for it. Couldn’t say what bring most of those desire. They might all have different causes. Of course there’s still often a thought Equivalent to: I choose to do this that precedes an action, or a thought equivalent to: I chose to do this that follow an action taken. Scratching my nose without thinking about it, right after I noticed, there’s the thought: I just scratched my nose. My girlfriend asked me if she could read me a poem while I’m writing. Telling her to wait just a second. What made me say that? The desire to finish what I was writing. Playing with my beard. Don’t know why. It’s an habit. There certainly was no thought that preceded it. Changing the position of my leg because sensing uncomfort. Looking away from the screen, no thought that precedes it. Still the thought: I just turned my head. What made me do that. Couldn’t tell. It seems like the more complex the decision, the more there’s a movement to go to the thought.

Yes, I am consciousness.

Love

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Ilona
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Re: I don't know anything absolutely.

Postby Ilona » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:38 pm

Thank you for answer and sharing your poem. Love it, it’s intimate and true.

Can you check what comes firsts, the thought to do something, the action, or the impulse (what you call desire) you described very well what was happening at the time of writing. Thanks.

You say, yes, I am consciousness. This is something I invite you to look at. What is that I that has this identity?
I know it’s difficult to put all this in words, but have a go.

Love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Fallawake1
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Re: I don't know anything absolutely.

Postby Fallawake1 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:07 pm

When it’s the senses,hearing seeing, etc, it’s the impulse that comes first, there’s no thinking that precedes it. For sure, when it’s reflexes and little actions, it’s the impulse that comes first. Realizing that for the subtle action of thinking there is the desire for it to be. So even when an action is preceded by a thought, that thought itself is preceded by an impulse: going to the thought. In my experience, there is often that movement to go to the thought.

It’s the seeing of that cellphone, the hearing of that freezer buzzing, the seeing and sensing that of thumb typing, the touching of that beard, the sensing of that breath, the thinking of those thoughts, the scratching of that nose, the contracting of those muscles, the feeling of that sensation in the head, the feeling of that tightness in the throat, that sensing in the belly. It’s the experiencing of everything that happens in my human journey. It’s what makes everything experiencing possible. It seems to be completely free to take every form it wants.

Love

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Re: I don't know anything absolutely.

Postby Ilona » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:59 pm

As long as there is an identity, that’s not it.
I am consciousness. I am god. That’s a very nice identity. Super nice.
But what are you without identity? What is there that needs an identity?
What is that owns this human life, that says my life?

Examine this and write what you notice.

Love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Fallawake1
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Re: I don't know anything absolutely.

Postby Fallawake1 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:37 pm

First going to the mind for answers. Not knowing, unknown, inconcevable, empty, formless. Don’t even know for sure if I am alive. Then there’s the desire to go to the heart for answers. There’s the sensation of being alive. Then there’s the thought: only Life can own life. There’s nothing outside Life. Somehow I is a part of the One Life. Can I know Life in any other way then with the human journey? A thought appears: no. What’s the human journey? A set of sensations, feelings, thoughts and perceptions. Is there distinction between the human journey and Life? The image of a wave in the ocean appears in the thoughts. Life is precious.
There’s the thoughts: completely free, freedom itself. Freedom to take an identity or not.Then there’s the thought: I am completely responsible for my life.
Sensing the heart again. Mild sensation.


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