SelfingStrong

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:21 pm

OK, I had misunderstood this first part here and what you were asking. I was looking at my feet, not on the floor some distance away.
Can you clarify this:
Now - open your eyes. Look at the floor some distance away.

When you look at this area, is there anything telling you that the sensation is in a different location? If so, where, and how is it known?
No, sensation seems to be in that general area.
Which general area do you.mean? The one you are looking at? Or where feet are thought to be?
So when I look at the floor some distance away, thought tells me that sensation is where my feet are thought to be.
What do we mean when we say sensation "seems" to be somewhere?
It feels murky to me. I can’t find or pinpoint exactly where sensation is...no boundary and no definitive, defined area where it’s located. When I look, I can’t really say, the sensation is right here. There is a thought that says it’s coming from feet though.
By now, with this investigation, if we are saying something "seems" a certain way, that is a clear indication of the need to look closely at what this "seeming" actually consists of.
Is sensation seeming to be somewhere something that is seen? Or the location is coming from sensation itself? Or thought? Which is it?
When eyes are closed, I have no idea about location. Sensation is just there. When eyes are open, thought kicks in and tries to give the sensation a location.
Is sensation labelled "pressure in the feet" actual pressure and actual feet? When feet cannot be seen, where is "feet"? How is it known?
When feet cannot be seen, there is just sensation. It’s very hard to tell where it’s located and if it’s related to ‘feet’.
Is it any different when feet can be seen? In what way?
When feet are seen, thought says that sensation is located in the feet.
So what/where is actual experience of "feet"?
With eyes open, there is sensation and color/ shape.
In the process of seeing, there is the appearance of colour. But in what way are "feet" themselves actually experienced? If you are not clear what to look for, look back at the thread at when we discussed "table" - is "feet" any different?
. “Feet” is a label, like table. I think I must be missing something here. And maybe I was missing it with table too. Does the label actually matter? If someone said “table” in a language I didn’t understand, it would just be a phonetic sound. No meaning to it. But the thing or form is still exists. Hope I’m not making this harder than it needs to be. Thank you for you help with this!

Lisa

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DrWilko
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby DrWilko » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:14 pm

Hi Lisa,
I think I must be missing something here.
No - you are doing fine.. but please answer all the questions asked - they are there for a reason - I am trying to guide you!

For example answer all the bits of this:

Is sensation labelled "pressure in the feet" actual pressure and actual feet? When feet cannot be seen, where is "feet"? How is it known?

In fact - just have another look at the questions and make sure each and every one is answered, because when I look at your answers, key questions have been skipped.
maybe I was missing it with table too.
I don't think so - you seemed pretty clear about table to me! Have a look back.
If someone said “table” in a language I didn’t understand, it would just be a phonetic sound. No meaning to it. But the thing or form is still exists.
Look back at what we said - does "thing or form" exist outside of thought? Isn't there just sensation or colour?

You are right the label doesn't matter - so there is thought giving "table" the meaning "table" even outside of the label. This is the kind of thing we are looking at here. There are, for example, other thoughts labelled memory or image... Is thought always a word or label?

The key thing here is that what we are doing is no different - we are looking at sensation and seeing if there is a known location, if there is known "things" that are "self" in actual experience.

Thought called belief will try all kinds of tricks here... Stick with it! Check all the questions from the last post again and any new questions I have asked...

I look forward to hearing what you discover!

All good wishes,
Dave

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:37 am

OK, let's give this another try. I think the only one I missed is the one you referenced.
Is sensation labelled "pressure in the feet" actual pressure and actual feet? When feet cannot be seen, where is "feet"? How is it known?
No, it's not actual pressure and actual feet. Those are just labels. My experience of it is just sensation. When feet cannot be seen, I don't experience feet aside from a mental image in my head of where they are imagined to be.
Look back at what we said - does "thing or form" exist outside of thought? Isn't there just sensation or colour?
"Thing or form" do not exist outside of thought. I loose sight of this so easily though. It's very difficult to experience feet as just color. (With sensation, it's much easier.) Like I said, I almost have to pretend I have forgotten everything or that I'm a baby and know nothing. I'm not sure I actually believe I'm seeing just color. Is it just the most stripped down experience of what's there? I do actually see something.
Is thought always a word or label?
No, sometimes it's an image or a series of images, imagined scenarios or "future thoughts", so called "feelings" even.

I think I got it all unless there was clarification needed on one of my previous responses. Looking forward to your reply!

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DrWilko
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby DrWilko » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:42 am

Hi Lisa,

Absolutely brilliant answers - well done for sticking with it.
No, it's not actual pressure and actual feet. Those are just labels. My experience of it is just sensation.
Fantastic! So - are you ready for this? Where in your experience is there "my feet"?
aside from a mental image in my head
... And apply the same looking to "my head"!

It's very difficult to experience feet as just color
Color is just color. Or seeing is just seeing. But "feet" is...?
I almost have to pretend I have forgotten everything or that I'm a baby and know nothing.
Is this the pretence? Or what you think you "know"?

Is thought always a word or label?
No, sometimes it's an image or a series of images, imagined scenarios or "future thoughts", so called "feelings" even.
Again - fantastic - let's bear this in mind as we proceed!

D x

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:17 am

Hi Dave,
So - are you ready for this? Where in your experience is there "my feet"?
Oh boy. I must not be. Is it possible to get another nudge here? If I'm looking at direct experience with eyes closed..."my feet" is just an image in my head....thought. If my eyes are open, I see color initially...thought says they are "my feet". In both cases, "my feet" is a thought, but with eyes open, I see something there that matches the image I had in my head when eyes were closed. With eyes closed, I couldn't see anything. I'm not sure what we're getting at here beyond feet being a label for something.
And apply the same looking to "my head"!
"My head" is a thought. And I can't see my head. I have a thought about what it looks like, but no visual experience of it.
But "feet" is...?
A label...like table.
Is this the pretence? Or what you think you "know"?
I'm not sure what is being asked here. Perhaps I think that I "know" something but I really don't....

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DrWilko
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby DrWilko » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:18 am

Hi Lisa,

Best answers yet on this section.
So - are you ready for this? Where in your experience is there "my feet"?
Oh boy. I must not be.
No - you really are, I was just looking for unequivocal clarity in your answers, because first feet were sensations and colours, then they were "images in your head." But you have now told me (I think?) that they are thought.

You have also told me that head is just thought.

So are images actually in your head if head is only a thought? Do you experience a head that images pass through on some kind of screen?
"My head" is a thought. And I can't see my head. I have a thought about what it looks like, but no visual experience of it.
Precisely - see above.

So (and you are ready for this) - where in experience is there what you are calling a body? Your choices are, as ever, taste, sensation, smell, hearing, seeing, thinking...

All good wishes,
Dave

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:44 pm

Hi Dave,
Language is getting tricky here. When I said “image in my head” it was more a figure of speech. I thought in the previous post we had agreed that thought could include more than just labels or words....images, series of images, feelings, etc...
So are images actually in your head if head is only a thought? Do you experience a head that images pass through on some kind of screen?
No, images are not “in my head”. Just a thought like every other thought.

So (and you are ready for this) - where in experience is there what you are calling a body? Your choices are, as ever, taste, sensation, smell, hearing, seeing, thinking...
. I’m sticking with the original example of feet here...I experience seeing and thinking. Sensation is out :)

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DrWilko
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby DrWilko » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:30 am

Is a body something you see? Are there things seen or just seeing? Where does "table" exist? Where "body"?

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DrWilko
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby DrWilko » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:13 am

Hi Lisa,

I hope you are having a good weekend. I just wanted to add somethimng here as i think it would be good for you to try this.
I bumped my elbow this morning putting in the laundry...there was the sensation that goes along with that and it just happens..not a me controlling it...but thought says it happened “to me”. My son Was standing next to me, but nothing “happened to him”. I’m not sure if it has something to do with associating a me with a body.


Okay - the last bunch of questions have been about looking for a body (which in turn you are associating with self). Please have a look at my question in the last reply and can you confirm that:

In what is seeing and sensing, there is just colour and sensation - seen, sensed/seeing, sensing are not separate things, there is no boundary - so no seer or senser. If you are still unclear about this go back and look at what we discovered when looking at and touching table.

So: in the last bunch of questions I simply wanted you to apply the same process to what is labled "my body" - to see that "body" exists only in thought, and that in experience there is just sensation with no indication in the experince itself of a boundary between senser and sensed (see our "feet" exercise), or indeed any indication of location (see the "feet" exercise again).

Get as clear as you can on that. You should see that the "table" exercise and the "feet" exercise are in fact the same exercise viewed from a different perspective. Spend some time on both again first if this is any way unclear. Just to re-iterate: you are checking to see is there a separation between sensed/seen and senser/seer - or just one process of sensing/seeing with no boundary, and that if there is no boundary then how can there be separate body and things except as thoughts.

Once you have established that I would like you to go out on a little field trip. It doesn't matter where - though some place with few distractions would be best. A walk in nature. I like to ride a bus and to look out the window. If you find people distracting it might be good to get away from them for this. For an hour or two at least.

We have been looking at the idea that what we think of as a self cannot be found anywhere. That there is no controller or witness. This is one way of seeing things.

Equally, it is the same to say that all of experince is self. If seeing is one process, then what is appearing as colour is you. If sensing is sensation, then everything sensed is you. If hearing is sound then everything heard is you.

Go out, feel the wind on your skin. Notice the trees and the colurs and hear the birds - none of this is separate from"you". You are all this.

Let me know how this was for you.

All good wishes,

Dave

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:39 pm

Hi Dave...hope your weekend is going well too. I am working on these but before I respond, just looking for some clarification on the ‘table exercise’. We talked about table being a label but I don’t recall doing an actual excercise where I touched it or anything like that. Is that something I need to do?
Thanks!
Lisa

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DrWilko
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby DrWilko » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:54 pm

Hi Lisa,
We talked about table being a label but I don’t recall doing an actual excercise where I touched it or anything like that. Is that something I need to do?
You are right - looking back this was not so much an exercise, but an example we used. However, you told me:
What is "table" in actual experience? An actual table, or merely a thought?
Yes, it’s just a thought.
We could do an exercise involving table - but as long as you are clear that both table, and body exist only as thoughts (whether "labels" or images or memories - these are all just thought), and that in actual experience, there is only sensation, colour etc. And that thought "table" or "body" is not itself actual table or actual body.

Be as clear about those things as possible and then do the field trip with "the old switcheroo" - everything is you.

When you do this also play around with:

If in seeing there is only seeing, is there a sense of "I am here" or could "I" also be "there" too?


Interested to find out how you get on!

All good wishes,
Dave

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:51 pm

Hi Dave,
Just wanted to give you a little update. I have a much better understanding of this (I can see that body and table are only ideas or thoughts but the penny hasn’t dropped so to speak. There is still an aspect of seeing that is not totally clear...there remains a sense of subject/object and the seeing/seen being one escapes me. Things have been crazy yesterday and today but I will have some time tomorrow to get away for a bit in nature and will let you know what I find (and answer all of the questions). THank you for all of your help with this!

Lisa

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DrWilko
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby DrWilko » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:41 pm

Hi Lisa,

Take your time. As I said, it doesn't have to be nature - I do a similar exercise in the bus to work.
there remains a sense of subject/object and the seeing/seen being one escapes me.
Just to add this in - describe what this 'sense' odf subject/object consists of. Look for it intently in all the usual places. Where is it and what are its boundaries?

D x

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:43 pm

Hi...I just wanted to reply to this before moving forward. I thought I had it but then I go back to the old way of seeing things. And I want to make sure I'm clear on it. Do people struggle with this piece? I don't know if I'm thinking about it too much or making it harder than it really is but it's very frustrating. I can see where the trying to get it becomes an obstacle.
Just to add this in - describe what this 'sense' odf subject/object consists of. Look for it intently in all the usual places. Where is it and what are its boundaries?
There was a period of time this morning where I saw it as if the things in the room were not real...almost as if "things" came with seeing...it was all one. I started to question if they actually existed on their own or if they were they just part of seeing...like virtual reality glasses. Does that make sense? But then I moved my head and things went back to appearing like seeing was happening from my eyes. All the "stuff" is out there and the eyes are picking it up. I can't see behind me and what I see changes with movement. I can't point to a definitive boundary where seeing begins, but if I close my eyes, I get the sense it's coming from that general area. I'm not saying this equates to a self but that's where the "sense" of subject/object is coming from.

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DrWilko
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby DrWilko » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:49 pm

Hi Lisa,

Keep exploring that - however, I suggest doing the exercises and answering the questions from the previous post before we go further into this "sense of subject/object", as separation was the next area I had planned to cover.

Let me know own how it goes.

All good wishes,

Dave


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