Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

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Tiger01
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Re: Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

Postby Tiger01 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:00 am

Before we freeze this conversation, when i said there is something behind the eyes.

My experience is that attention occupies a place a few inches behind the eyes and is directed at the eyelids in front. And this attention gets directed to various sensations when necessary.

So the source or the resting place of attention without the focus object seems like a center

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adilerten
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Re: Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

Postby adilerten » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:04 am

Before we freeze this conversation, when i said there is something behind the eyes.

My experience is that attention occupies a place a few inches behind the eyes and is directed at the eyelids in front. And this attention gets directed to various sensations when necessary.

So the source or the resting place of attention without the focus object seems like a center
:)
As i asked couple of times before
What is the actual experience an "attention occupies a place a few inches behind" Tiger ?
Isnt it a sensation and thought ?

and again your statement includes "seems like"
A seems like can never be true. It just seems like.

There is no resting place, and there is no eyes, eyelids in direct experience.
It is only more thinking..

We will look more when you decide to come back..
Sending you love :)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

Postby adilerten » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:06 am

Hey Adil,

I came to a simple clarity that there is body, mind and attention/awareness.
I have seen the tyranny of illusion self and i don't really delude myself that often.
I can see the body does things based on conditioning and no amount of thought will change that.

Let's freeze this thread for a while and I'll come back when I have more questions.

Thank you for everything XO XO
It is good that you are not deluded by the idea of self. As you see it is only an idea. A thought.

This understnding will be deeper as long as you LOOK not think..

Sending you love :)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Tiger01
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Re: Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

Postby Tiger01 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:17 pm

All right let's continue! I don't want to do half job :P

Where shall I start?


Cheers! XO

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adilerten
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Re: Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

Postby adilerten » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:36 pm

All right let's continue! I don't want to do half job :P

Where shall I start?


Cheers! XO
Good to hear this Tiger :)
We should start from the last and clear the thoughts that there are eyes and clear the belief that sensation "mean" something. But i will need your focused attention post by post.

I want you to focus again please to the idea of body,

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’. 2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only. 3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the sight, the ‘object’ seen (hand).
But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the sight?
In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?


You can repeat the exercise with all of body parts. For the head you can use a mirror and tell me what comes please..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Tiger01
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Re: Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

Postby Tiger01 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:10 pm

Normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the sight, the ‘object’ seen (hand).
But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the sight?
In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Mental constructs
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
Yes. "Simultaneously"

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
Yes. This is true just in AE.. Like I have to really focus into AE.

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Tiger01
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Re: Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

Postby Tiger01 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:10 am

That exercise was relaxing in a way.
There is color here. There is sounds here. There is sensations here. There is thought patterns. Nothing is actually causing much problem. But there is this voice/movement going on... No this can't be it. These surroundings must be better, I'll make more money and change it. This body can be better, this is not it. I'll workout and eat healthy. These thoughts aren't helpful, I'm going to train them to do something more useful and more funny. And on and on ... I'll change so many things!

I asked myself , one of the initial questions that you had asked me. "What comes up when i say there is no-self or me or there is no I in reality" ..... Now it's automatic response of ... Ah, what nonsense. I'm here... look at the body! look at this whole thing.. you are an idiot to think otherwise! you have to get to work. that's me, you see!

And earlier you had asked me to look at this feeling or what is IT trying to protect. So I slowed down but i did not know where to look. Other than this automatic complete denial through thoughts. I din't know where to look.. Which direction! Do I look at sensation.. Do i look at so called stomach or chest or face!

I had read this earlier and noted it down... And now it is making sense.... It made sense a few posts ago when we looked at automaticity of thought , And now its clearer after you kinda torn reality for me :P
"I will just ask him to notice if the hearing happens before or after he says he is hearing…."

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adilerten
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Re: Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

Postby adilerten » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:00 pm

That exercise was relaxing in a way.
There is color here. There is sounds here. There is sensations here. There is thought patterns. Nothing is actually causing much problem. But there is this voice/movement going on... No this can't be it. These surroundings must be better, I'll make more money and change it. This body can be better, this is not it. I'll workout and eat healthy. These thoughts aren't helpful, I'm going to train them to do something more useful and more funny. And on and on ... I'll change so many things!

I asked myself , one of the initial questions that you had asked me. "What comes up when i say there is no-self or me or there is no I in reality" ..... Now it's automatic response of ... Ah, what nonsense. I'm here... look at the body! look at this whole thing.. you are an idiot to think otherwise! you have to get to work. that's me, you see!

And earlier you had asked me to look at this feeling or what is IT trying to protect. So I slowed down but i did not know where to look. Other than this automatic complete denial through thoughts. I din't know where to look.. Which direction! Do I look at sensation.. Do i look at so called stomach or chest or face!

I had read this earlier and noted it down... And now it is making sense.... It made sense a few posts ago when we looked at automaticity of thought , And now its clearer after you kinda torn reality for me :P
"I will just ask him to notice if the hearing happens before or after he says he is hearing…."
Wonderful post :) Thank you for sharing Tiger
I loved to read and it brought the thought of a scene from movie Revolver because of your thought commentary...

It is ok for that commentary to be there. Let it be there. You are not it. Just some thoughts rise and fall.
As you know nothing is before or after something because there is no time. It is all happening.
It just is.

I understand also how those suspicious / denial of the truth thoughts arise.. "Look at me i am here"
You will understand more after you watch this small clip below..

Let's make an exercise on the next post :)

Check
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeW7T5Q5mhI
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

Postby adilerten » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:01 pm

Normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the sight, the ‘object’ seen (hand).
But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the sight?
In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Mental constructs
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
Yes. "Simultaneously"

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
Yes. This is true just in AE.. Like I have to really focus into AE.
Very good looking.
Yes focus more of what is real instead of thought content Tiger.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

Postby adilerten » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:10 pm

Let's look more in..That commentary..That flow of thought(s) closer...

The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice. It seems to feel as though they can influence, somehow, what is gong on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome. The commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identificaton with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

What did you find when dong this exercise?
Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?
And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Tiger01
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Re: Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

Postby Tiger01 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:09 pm

What did you find when dong this exercise?
Everything seemed beautiful. Even the failures. Sometimes it looked funny!
Most importantly it was silent and in a flow motion.

Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?
No
And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
Most part of it is unnecessary. But when i'm at a restaurant, looking at the menu. This inner narration helps make a choice!
But of course it can be the case that the choice is already made and then "I" thought claims it just like breathing or perceiving.

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adilerten
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Re: Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

Postby adilerten » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:48 pm

This inner narration helps make a choice!
But of course it can be the case that the choice is already made and then "I" thought claims it just like breathing or perceiving.

Thanks for making the exercise Tiger. I see that you get what i wanted from you to get from that exercise,
;)

Are you sure that a narration helps making a choice ?
"commentaty", "i", "self" is just a thought..
Can thought think ?
What can a thought do ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Tiger01
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Re: Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

Postby Tiger01 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:04 pm

I'm not 100% convinced but,

In AE, "I" or "me" is a thought. "I am this body or whatever this thing is" is also a thought
"I exist" is also a thought
Thought is noise! Its' like a sophisticated recommendation system like the one u find or amazon or netflix!

I'm not sure what thought can do! I feel it exists or another thought might come up that says something related to this thought and so on..

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adilerten
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Re: Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

Postby adilerten » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:06 pm

I'm not 100% convinced but,

In AE, "I" or "me" is a thought. "I am this body or whatever this thing is" is also a thought
"I exist" is also a thought
Thought is noise! Its' like a sophisticated recommendation system like the one u find or amazon or netflix!

I'm not sure what thought can do! I feel it exists or another thought might come up that says something related to this thought and so on..
you don't need to be convinced on anything Tiger,
Just drop the beliefs so there will be nothing to be believed...
No need for theories, you look and see YES they are thoughts..
:)
Thought just is. Sure it exists.
But a thought can do nothing.
Yes as you say another thought comes up and says something..
Thought is there and it is as all experience self aware.

Anything not clear ?
:)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Tiger01
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Re: Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

Postby Tiger01 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:30 pm

Hey, Yesterday was on a trek on a local hill range.

What I found was thought affect emotional states.
For a while I was upbeat and then the thoughts were about how exciting it would be.

But after a while thoughts got dark, wanting to just give up and I was feeling trekking to be very tiring.

Thoughts are affecting my willing or unwillingness in a situation and the resultant pleasant and unpleasant emotional states.


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