Liberation

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:51 pm

What is the actual experience of a "body-mind"
Isnt it as you say only the labelled experiences (color-sound-sensations) ?
Oh! Right. There are only senses and thoughts. No body, no mind. Life happening, flowing.

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:54 pm

You watched the thoughts, where are they arising from ?
Cannot be known. We can give some labels but labels are will be giving more thoughts about it.
They just are.
It just is.

Clear ?
Got it.
Metta,
Suzanne

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adilerten
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Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:29 pm

Ok Suzanne,

Are you a seperate self ? Are you Suzanne and all that thoughts ?
Can you say a big fat "NO" or do you have some unclear fields you would like us to focus on ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:27 pm

I do have a question: how does one relate to difficult emotions and feelings after realizing one isn’t an separate entity? They still arise...

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adilerten
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Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:16 pm

I do have a question: how does one relate to difficult emotions and feelings after realizing one isn’t an separate entity? They still arise...

Realizing 'no self' happens, but there will also be periods of checking, and doubting, and rechecking, emotions will pop up that is all normal. This exploration is just a beginning and not an ending. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing, you will again be using some tools to deal with rising emotions. It will probably be much easier to deal with when there is no place for them to stick and now there is knowing that there is absolutely no control of them arising.

Is there a place for them to stick ?

Are they happening for a you ?


Now for 10 mins do this:
Recall a negative emotion, focus on it.
Look deeply in to it,

Is there a sensation in the body ? If yes where in the body it resides ?
IS there a link between the emotion and that sensation or only a thought says so ?
Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise?
Sit and look at what is happening.
Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:04 pm

Realizing 'no self' happens, but there will also be periods of checking, and doubting, and rechecking, emotions will pop up that is all normal. This exploration is just a beginning and not an ending. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing, you will again be using some tools to deal with rising emotions. It will probably be much easier to deal with when there is no place for them to stick and now there is knowing that there is absolutely no control of them arising.

Is there a place for them to stick ?

Are they happening for a you ?
Hi!
Thank you for this posting. It has helped me tremendously.
Is there a place for them to stick ?
Indeed there isn’t. There is no controller of thoughts so there can’t be a self to cling to either or a self that can cling or reject these thoughts. It’s all illusion.
Are they happening for a you ?
No, there is nothing happening to a separate me. Thoughts, emotions and feelings simply happen out of conditioning.

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:20 pm

Is there a sensation in the body ? If yes where in the body it resides ?
IS there a link between the emotion and that sensation or only a thought says so ?
Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise?
Sit and look at what is happening.
Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus


Is there a sensation in the body ? If yes where in the body it resides ? Yes there is a sensation of sadness in the body around the heart center.
IS there a link between the emotion and that sensation or only a thought says so ? I just assumed that the two were related. And yes I see that I thought about one and the other and related them.
Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? NO... I can’t.
Sit and look at what is happening.
Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus? No. No I, no decision-maker.
So “sad” thoughts arise out of nowhere or due to conditions and circumstances and their related sensations in the body (heartaches) just happens to be felt at the same time but they aren’t related? And then another thought arises that links them together and boom, the assumption is created?

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adilerten
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Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:15 pm

Thanks for your answers very good looking Suzanne,
i can see that fog is dissolving which makes me happy :)
So “sad” thoughts arise out of nowhere or due to conditions and circumstances and their related sensations in the body (heartaches) just happens to be felt at the same time but they aren’t related? And then another thought arises that links them together and boom, the assumption is created?
basically illusion works like this as you see.
only a thought labels the sensation.
Isnt it also like this for all kind of feelings like dear, sadness etc.
Try this
recall that sensation on the chest labelled as sadness.

Try not to think about the mind definitons of what it is..

What is it ?

Still sadness ? Or just a vibration like sensation has no meaning ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:38 am

basically illusion works like this as you see.
only a thought labels the sensation.
Isnt it also like this for all kind of feelings like dear, sadness etc.
Try this recall that sensation on the chest labelled as sadness.

Try not to think about the mind definitons of what it is..

What is it ?

Still sadness ? Or just a vibration like sensation has no meaning ?
I observe that it is just a sensation. I see that it’s in the body, transient and I label it as fear and unpleasant. But the direct experience of it is simply a sensamtion. It’s accompanied by a thought that fits with this sensation or is it the other way around, meaning thoughts first and. Sensation after.
I see how illusion operates: instead of observing sensations and thoughts, The mind automatically creates links, assumptions and story around these to make sense of them, which is all a dream/unreal.
I will observe that throughout the day and see what loaded sensations are in reality.
Metta
Suzanne

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adilerten
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Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:13 pm

basically illusion works like this as you see.
only a thought labels the sensation.
Isnt it also like this for all kind of feelings like dear, sadness etc.
Try this recall that sensation on the chest labelled as sadness.

Try not to think about the mind definitons of what it is..

What is it ?

Still sadness ? Or just a vibration like sensation has no meaning ?
I observe that it is just a sensation. I see that it’s in the body, transient and I label it as fear and unpleasant. But the direct experience of it is simply a sensamtion. It’s accompanied by a thought that fits with this sensation or is it the other way around, meaning thoughts first and. Sensation after.
I see how illusion operates: instead of observing sensations and thoughts, The mind automatically creates links, assumptions and story around these to make sense of them, which is all a dream/unreal.
I will observe that throughout the day and see what loaded sensations are in reality.
Metta
Suzanne
Yes Suzanne, very good looking.. Thank you.. You saw how illusion works.
But let's look deeper to this to clean all beliefs:
It’s accompanied by a thought that fits with this sensation or is it the other way around, meaning thoughts first and. Sensation after.
What is it says that this "first and after" this happens ?
Is there any cause and effect ?
Does time exist ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:21 pm

It’s accompanied by a thought that fits with this sensation or is it the other way around, meaning thoughts first and. Sensation after.
What is it says that this "first and after" this happens ?
Is there any cause and effect ?
Does time exist ?

I'm not sure I understand this question:
What is it says that this "first and after" this happens ?

Is there cause and effect?
Oh! So feelings, sensations, and thoughts are unrelated? Wow, that is radical. I have to chew this one! I thought there was a connection between them. Sad thought appears, feeling hurt follows, more thought of sad story spins and there you go. So what I have to check is if direct experience is really a sequence of cause and effect or if it all just pops up and the story binds it together...
Time is a concept created for functioning. It's not part of direct experience.

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adilerten
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Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:27 pm

Hello Suzanne
Let's look
:)

Time is a concept created for functioning. It's not part of direct experience.

Yes time does not exist.
So how can something can cause the other if there is no time ?


Oh! So feelings, sensations, and thoughts are unrelated? Wow, that is radical. I have to chew this one! I thought there was a connection between them. Sad thought appears, feeling hurt follows, more thought of sad story spins and there you go. So what I have to check is if direct experience is really a sequence of cause and effect or if it all just pops up and the story binds it together...
Yes check your self..
Use some questions like,

Can i spot a link between sensation feeling and the thought ?
Is there also a dividing line between them ?
How they are experienced ? one by one ?
Or a though story says: "this comes from that..This causes that.."
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Suzanne68
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Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:13 am

Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:44 pm

Yes check your self..
Use some questions like,

Can i spot a link between sensation feeling and the thought ?
Is there also a dividing line between them ?
How they are experienced ? one by one ?
Or a though story says: "this comes from that..This causes that..
Hi!
There is no actual link between them that I can observe. It’s all thought content that I create! Just like the concept of time, there isn’t any division between the feelings and thoughts and sensations. It’s all one. Bundled together. The thoughts about this creates a story to explain. I see... very interesting!

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:16 pm

They’re not experienced one after the other, and they appear automatically. No control over them either, no controller.

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:16 pm

They’re not experienced one after the other, and they appear automatically. No control over them either, no controller.


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