Looking for a clearer look

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Philosoraptr
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Re: Looking for a clearer look

Postby Philosoraptr » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:28 am

Hi Stacy, I spent a while looking and this is what came up.

Without the thought "there is a me" I feel an expansion and a feeling of not being anything located but still being here and now and aware of everything going on presently. Staying with this there was a point where that being aware was where my focus locked in.

Doing the exercise with my eyes open I would say was more like thought content arising that "without me, all this that is appearing is me..like the world is me


Love
Sid

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Anastacia42
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Re: Looking for a clearer look

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:31 am

Yes, Sid, exactly!

That is seeing no self. Awareness, yes, and still - no "me."

Before, you said:
everything is my awareness'

There is no self

Like dark or empty space or nothing unless there is a sensation to define it. Or a field of awareness that knows sensations.
Good. The next (& last) step in The Work of Byron Katie is Turn Arounds. We turn the original statement around to self, other, or an opposite and give three proofs that the opposite is at least is true.

Original Belief was, "There is a me."

All 4 words have opposites. Change one word to its opposite and give three proofs of the truth of that statement.

Enjoy!


Love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Re: Looking for a clearer look

Postby Philosoraptr » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:05 am

Happy to see your note Stacy! Headed out for a long hiking day and won't get a chance to reply today due to network issues but will get back tomorrow.

Love
Sid

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Re: Looking for a clearer look

Postby Philosoraptr » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:42 pm

Hi Stacy, Finally back from the wilderness and has been an interesting day of looking. Things feel much clearer now. Answers below.
Original Belief was, "There is a me."

All 4 words have opposites. Change one word to its opposite and give three proofs of the truth of that statement.

There isn't a me

Proof1: The body is seen to operate autonomously and does not require a thought to control it. There's no evidence of a me controlling it

Proof2: Choices happen without there being a thought as a chooser or any chooser found

Proof3: I'm present and aware, and thoughts that talk about a me come and go but I'm still here, and aware of them. What I am isn't found in a me-thought

Proof4: In looking for a me there's nothing concerete to be found that isn't a sensation perception or thought. And I'm not in those.

Love
Sid

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Re: Looking for a clearer look

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:38 pm

Good morning!

Good! Very good proofs.

Did you notice that the belief in "I" crept in?
I'm still here, and aware
Is there really an "i" here? Can you say this differently in a way that is truer?

We have to use language a little differently to express these awarenesses.

Please reply to that, and then give a second Turn Around - again with at least three proofs. Remember to change only one word. It would be good to find a Turn Around that does not use the word "not," but gives the direct opposite.

That is a little hard to find with this one, so I'm going to give it to you:

There is no me.

Can you see how that is a stronger opposite? It may bring up different proofs. Maybe.

It's more important in other kinds of turnarounds such as when someone is looking at a belief like, "Joe should understand me."

The Turn Around, "Joe should not understand me," is avoiding saying "Joe should misunderstand me." It is a way of clinging to the original belief a little bit. Can you see how that is? Mostly, I just want you to know about that if you use The Work of Byron Katie again.

We will continue until we've turned around each word and then a couple of special Turn Arounds: the Yahoo! Turn Around and the My Thinking Turn Around.

Having fun? :)

Love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Re: Looking for a clearer look

Postby Philosoraptr » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:37 am

Hi Stacy!
Did you notice that the belief in "I" crept in?

I'm still here, and aware
Yes I noticed there was an "I" that was aware of thought, aware of sensation etc. But didn't seem anyway to be without that I. But it did feel much less identified with false things and a truer no thing than being a body or mind.
Is there really an "i" here? Can you say this differently in a way that is truer?

Please reply to that, and then give a second Turn Around - again with at least three proofs. Remember to change only one word. It would be good to find a Turn Around that does not use the word "not," but gives the direct opposite.

That is a little hard to find with this one, so I'm going to give it to you: 

There is no me
That turn around is far more powerful. I stay with it and it leads me to confusion. There's a brief moment where even "I am aware of" feels like it's just a happening but then I'm back to seeing myself as aware. I'll need more looking as it feels like the proofs are different or maybe hard to communicate. Let me know if I'm going back into some tangent though.
Mostly, I just want you to know about that if you use The Work of Byron Katie again.

We will continue until we've turned around each word and then a couple of special Turn Arounds: the Yahoo! Turn Around and the My Thinking Turn Around. 

Having fun? :)
I didn't realize how powerful these were. I'll definitely want to use it for any sticky things in the future.

I've been feeling a peace of mind of not worrying about thought taking me away and a seeing that if thought comes in and gets identified as an I, then at some point it'll get dei-dentified too which is a big relief (or relieving to the body) but the inquiry now feels more light and very less desperate to get something.

Love,
Sid

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Re: Looking for a clearer look

Postby Philosoraptr » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:07 pm

Hi Stacy, In looking more it felt like my previous attempt was geared at having some dissolution experience. In my latest looking I have some things to share.

"There is no me"

Proof1: the contents of awareness cause automatic preferences for some things to be focused on than others but there's no choosing of what contents are seen/heard etc.

Proof 2: when eyes open or when seeing, there is no controller of being aware of things. Being aware is a default state, even when not aware of being aware. No me creating an awareness

Proof3: being present is already present without an I. An I cannot make itself absent or decide to not be present. A thought can come in and say now I'm present. But that's just a thought.

There's a bit of an imposter syndrome where I feel like these statements are being made and while they feel true they don't bring any big aha feeling or awe and the Majesty of the universe kinda thing..but it doesnt have that fear of forgetting that I used to get with recognizing non dual insights. So more solid.(maybe all this additional thought commentary is what needs to be dropped as this is a false I now?)

Love
Sid

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Re: Looking for a clearer look

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:15 pm

Good morning,
But didn't seem anyway to be without that I.
There IS a way. You keep finding it and then denying it with a bunch of mind chatter. You found it below.
"I am aware of" feels like it's just a happening
There's no dissolution experience. And there may not be any big aha or anything at all. It may be very very subtle. Or it may not.
(maybe all this additional thought commentary is what needs to be dropped as this is a false I now?)
I would take out the "maybe." :)

It's nice that you feel pleasant & calm, and all of that, but don't expect it to always be that way.

"An accurate ad for enlightenment would make the toughest marine blanche. There is no higher stakes game in this world or any other, in this dimension or any other.The price of truth is everything, but no one knows what everything means until they're paying it."

~ Jed McKenna


Good proofs, again. Now find the opposite of another word & give at least 3 proofs. ( I usually do the words in order in the sentence, so I don't lose track. Just make sure we do all of them.)


Love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Re: Looking for a clearer look

Postby Philosoraptr » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:33 pm

Hi Stacy, Will keep at the looking. I've noticed that the belief in doership keeps creeping in and it helps to repeat the statements about the body/mind etc before going to the there is no me.
Good proofs, again. Now find the opposite of another word & give at least 3 proofs. ( I usually do the words in order in the sentence, so I don't lose track. Just make sure we do all of them.)
Just so to confirm so i'm understanding correctly.
The statement "there is a me" became "there isn't a me" , "there is no me" and the other would be "there is no other"? And is there any after that for the original statement?

Love
Sid

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Re: Looking for a clearer look

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:06 pm

Good morning,

I'll cut to the chase more than usual. You've done 2 Turn Arounds that are opposites if "is."

Belief: "There is a me."

4 words, 6+ possible Turn Arounds, one for each word, plus "my thinking," plus Yahoo! ( usually we're investigating stressful thoughts and judgments about other people, so this one is used to show how your original stressful thought is a positive and good thing.) There actually almost an infinite number of turnarounds because there are an infinite number of opposites for each word.

TA #1 - Opposite of "is"

There isn't a me/There is no me.

TA #2 - Opposite of "there?"

TA #3 - Opposite of "a?"

TA #4 - Opposite of "me?"

Yes, could be "There is an other?"

TA #5 - "There is my thinking." (Very useful turn around for noticing that "I" am not my "thinking.")

TA #6 - Yahoo! There is a me. (How is the original stressful thought a good thing? )

I'm not sure what statements about the body/mind you are repeating, but remember, this is simply about noticing what is already there, not about chanting some psychobabble until we believe it - even if it's true. Just LOOK.

Love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Re: Looking for a clearer look

Postby Philosoraptr » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:41 am

Thanks for the further breakdown Stacy. Not super familiar with actually doing the Byron Katie method so a few more clarifications. Might stretch your patience threshold :p but here goes.

So if a turn around doesn't feel true I'd look for a more true one right?
TA #1 - Opposite of "is" 

There isn't a me/There is no me.

TA #2 - Opposite of "there?"
"A me is not there" ? Or "no me here?"
TA #3 - Opposite of "a?
"

Not sure what the opposite of "a" is? Can't be "there is not even one me"? "There is not a me" perhaps?

Had a few more doubts about the others but maybe it'll clear up when I understand these.

Love
Sid

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Re: Looking for a clearer look

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:15 am

Hi,
So if a turn around doesn't feel true I'd look for a more true one right?
Nope. You keep looking until you can find the truth of it. It is there. Always. I've been doing this for 20 years and we can prove any statement you throw at me.

You can also find an opposite for any word in the English language. But it's better if you do it yourself. It needs to go through your brain. Use a thesaurus if you need to.
"A me is not there" ? Or "no me here?"
No. We do not change the sentence that much. We simply substitute the opposite word right where it is.

TA #2 "Here is a me."

(There are others. This is the simple obvious one.) Now find three proofs.

See if an online dictionary has an opposite for "a."


I have a few ideas, but it's best for you to do your own searches. Think about the fact that a means there's just one, just as an example of one way to go about it.

Let's take it one turn around at a time. It will keep you from getting confused. I usually do not give all the turn around like that. But the direction you were heading was a tangent and I wanted to show you where we were going.

If you want to, you can pull up YouTube and find Katie videos to watch for other examples. She has some on how to to do The Work.

Most of the time we are judging somebody else, not checking beliefs or concepts. Doing it this way is a little bit advanced, but more applicable to what you and I are doing.

Love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Re: Looking for a clearer look

Postby Philosoraptr » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:35 pm

Ok cool, much clearer about it and it'll get clearer as I get the hang. Yup I did replace the opposites like you mentioned but since the sentences became a little strange or not normally correct Grammer I thought I did something wrong.
TA #2 "Here is a me." 

(There are others. This is the simple obvious one.) Now find three proofs.
Checking if I'm doing this right with these proofs below. Since we did there is no me in the start, I'm assuming I'm taking a look at this statement with my initial definition of a me. I.e what I feel the me was or might still be believed in.

Statement : "here is a me"

Proof 1: the feeling of being a me is located and that location is here.

Proof 2: The me, if believed to be the body mind, has a limit that corresponds to the limits of the body and the head is where the thoughts are contained.

Proof 3: the experience of here and my being present are always simultaneously happening.

Thanks
Sid

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Re: Looking for a clearer look

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:19 pm

Good morning!

I knew this one was going to get a little tricky. "There is no me" is possibly the truest you're going to find on this one.
Checking if I'm doing this right with these proofs below. Since we did there is no me in the start, I'm assuming I'm taking a look at this statement with my initial definition of a me. I.e what I feel the me was or might still be believed in.

Statement : "here is a me"
That is a valid way of doing it. If you wanted a challenge, you could find 3 proofs that are closer to the truth. Sometimes we say "3 positive proofs," particularly with the Yahoo! Turn Around where we find proof of the original stressful thought and how it can be a *good* thing and not stressful. Same here. How can you prove "Here is a me," in non-stressful, truer ways?

Like I said, this is NOT where I would normally start anyone who was just learning The Work, but we are using it in this specific context of seeing no self. You can do this. It's a good exercise to stretch yourself & start questioning the many beliefs (lies) that run through the mind day in and day out.)

I will give you one possible proof that might help point you to these:

Proof: There is a story of me running around in my head all day long. :) Which, as we know, is not proof of any *actual* me, as there is none, but we can get creative with proofs.

(Side Note - Example of getting creative with Turn Arounds and proofs - let's say your stressful thought is "My girlfriends shouldn't smoke." When you turn around and find "I shouldn't smoke," maybe you are not a smoker. So, you think of habits *like* smoking that you can use, such as overeating or something. Sometimes we get metaphorical. It's actually a lot of fun to me.)

This is completely optional, by the way. You gave 3 valid proofs. We can move to the next one. What we really care about is - can you find a "me" anywhere? Is that nagging sense of a "me" any different? When it comes up, are you able to see through it?

Love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Re: Looking for a clearer look

Postby Philosoraptr » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:02 pm

Same here. How can you prove "Here is a me," in non-stressful, truer ways? 

Proof: There is a story of me running around in my head all day long. :) Which, as we know, is not proof of any *actual* me, as there is none, but we can get creative with proofs. 
I like this approach! It helps me see things that I attribute to a me falsely or which takes some time to see through.

Proof 1: Thoughts that come up and start referring to other thoughts or the other parts of body as under their direct control and create a sense of a "me".

Proof 2: Others believe there is a "me" responsible for my actions and in control of my body. This reinforces the belief there is a me here

Proof 3: fear brings out thoughts of changing situations and defending a me from harm. The character being protected is only the thought of a me here.
This is completely optional, by the way. You gave 3 valid proofs. We can move to the next one. What we really care about is - can you find a "me" anywhere? Is that nagging sense of a "me" any different? When it comes up, are you able to see through it? 
If those proofs look good I'd like to try the "there is many me's" too.

The sense of a me looking out of the eyes and seeing is the one that I'm not able to see through. I can see thoughts and the body sensations as empty of a me but the visual senses feel like I'm stuck behind there. Any suggestions on how to see it as just another "sense of a me" that isn't real?

Love
Sid


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