Not "Getting It"

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Bayou1
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Bayou1 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:27 pm

Haha - not a problem. I assumed that you meant it to be people talking, and that's what I checked in the second round - the sound of people talking in the other room. So - Their talking is just sound. It's thought that interprets and comments on what is being said who's saying it, and so on.

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Seamist
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Seamist » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:58 pm

Yes, well done

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Seamist
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Seamist » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:38 pm

Let's continue by further exploring the difference between mental construction and direct experience.
Choose an ordinary object in the room. Maybe a vase of flowers or something that has interesting and varied visual qualities
1. Close your eyes and picture it in your mind for a minute or two.
2. Open your eyes and observe it directly for a while.
Describe both experiences. The first one of what was happening directly in the mind sense and then the second one of what you experienced in the visual sense.
Also tell me the difference between these two experiences.

xx

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Bayou1
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Bayou1 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:55 pm

Happy St. Patrick's Day!
Describe both experiences. The first one of what was happening directly in the mind sense and then the second one of what you experienced in the visual sense.
I picked a desk lamp - one of those old fashioned ones with the green glass top, horizontal light bulb, and pull chain. Picturing it in my mind, I was trying to think through the details of it, such as what side is the pull chain is on, exact coloring of the brass base, size dimensions of it all, and so on. It was all really fuzzy, and I was surprised that I couldn't remember much of its exact detail at all.

Opening my eyes and looking at it, I realized that I got a lot wrong in my mind-only attempt at recreating it. Dimensions, color shades, and other details had all been imagined imperfectly compared to the real experience.

Thanks again,
Bayou

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Seamist
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Seamist » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:37 pm

Good.
Can you talk me more about the actual experience of Judy looking at the lamp? (Maybe do that but again first)

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Seamist
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Seamist » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:37 pm

Just looking(not Judy!)

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Bayou1
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Bayou1 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:34 pm

Hello!
Can you talk me more about the actual experience of Judy looking at the lamp? (Maybe do that but again first)
While just looking at the lamp, I was comparing it to the picture that I had in my mind's eye in that first part of the exercise, thinking - "wow, I completely forgot about this color being like that," and so on with the rest of the aspects of it. When the mind is quiet while just looking at something, the object is just there but the opinions and commentary about it are silent. This happens as well (and did in this exercise, also), but usually, when focusing in on something, there's usually judgments about it.

Thank you!

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Seamist
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Seamist » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:57 pm

Hi Bayou
Great noticing, lovely!
Let’s go through the other senses in the same way. Try now to stick to only adjectives and no other words at all when describing the sounds or the imaginations etc. You can use other words when describing the difference.

This next exercise suggests using a gong or a bell: have you got one? Or something you can improvise with?
Hearing.
a) Imagine first the sound of a gong (or bell). Describe exactly how you imagined that. What were the qualities?
b) Then sound the gong and listen with your whole being. Describe that also as fully as you can.
c) Tell me the difference.

x

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Bayou1
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Bayou1 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:35 pm

Hi Seamist,
This next exercise suggests using a gong or a bell: have you got one? Or something you can improvise with?
Hearing.
I don't personally have one, so I found a clip online of a bell being rung. Here's what I found:

a) Imagine first the sound of a gong (or bell). Describe exactly how you imagined that. What were the qualities?
Loud, sudden, clear, familiar

b) Then sound the gong and listen with your whole being. Describe that also as fully as you can.
Loud, constant, varying volume

c) Tell me the difference.
Just as with picturing the lamp, thinking of what a bell sounds like, I went to my memory bank to pull up a church bell sound. With this in mind, I thought of it as being a loud sound that rings and then fades out only to be rung again. When I pulled up a clip online of a church bell ringing, I realized that I had completely forgotten how the sound itself continues for a long time after and usually doesn't even stop sounding before it's rung again. That more "constant" sound is not constant in volume, however, as it fades out a bit with time - another thing I didn't include in my mind-only version going from memory.


Thank you!
Bayou

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Seamist
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Seamist » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:30 pm

Great, there's quite a difference, isn't there?
Taste, smell and touch.
Imagine an orange or a similarly strong tasting fruit. Go through the same 3 steps and describe these 3 senses fully also.

xx

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Bayou1
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Bayou1 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:12 pm

Hello!

I didn't have any fruit to do this with, but my lunch here at work was a burrito, so forgive me for that :)

Smell
a) Imagined: Meat, cheese, enticing (I'm having difficulty in explaining smells other than comparing them to others...)
b) Actual: [as in (a) above, other than saying what other things are similar in smell, I can't really describe the smell0
c) Difference: The imagined approach was weak in the sense that it bore none of the reality of the actual smell. The reality was richer and much more "enticing" than imagining what a burrito smells like. This is the same result as the visual and auditory experiments so far.

Touch
a) Imagined (of the outside of it...I don't want to touch the gooey insides!): Soft but with some potential crustiness from baking, weak (would give way to a pushed finger)
b) Actual: Warm, firm
c) Difference: Again, the imagined approach didn't even think to consider the temperature. Actual experience brings in aspects that the mind often just forgets to consider or include in its daydreams

Taste
a) Imagined: Warm or hot, salty, cheesy
b) Actual: Crusty (tortilla) and a mix of tastes that can't really be described, other than saying the ingredients - which doesn't give a description for the actual experience
c) Difference: Actual experience was much richer and varied than the imagined one

Overall, with all of the senses, one thing that I noticed (beyond that the actual was much more interesting and complex than the imagined) is that the thought version is very "two-dimensional" or "flat" in the sense that thoughts are sequential and are on a single aspect of something at a time. I can't be thinking "it will smell like meat" at the same exact moment as "it will be hot." Those are two separate thoughts that may follow one another but cannot perfectly overlap. The actual experience of eating, however, gives you everything simultaneously.

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Seamist
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Seamist » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:58 pm

Dear Bayou,
I've realised that I need to stop guiding, for the time being, at least. Please accept my apologies for this. Stafford has agreed to take over from me and will now continue instead of me here. Hopefully that will all happen smoothly - do get back to me if that doesn't happen.
Wishing you all the best
Sioned

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Bayou1
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Bayou1 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:02 pm

Hi Sioned,

I'm really sorry to hear that and have really enjoyed the discussion so far and even feel that the sense of self is fading. I hope that you come back to guiding soon; you're an asset to this entire community. Thank you again for all of your help and time; please keep in touch!

Bayou

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StaffordJR
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby StaffordJR » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:22 pm


Hello!

I didn't have any fruit to do this with, but my lunch here at work was a burrito, so forgive me for that :)

Smell
a) Imagined: Meat, cheese, enticing (I'm having difficulty in explaining smells other than comparing them to others...)
b) Actual: [as in (a) above, other than saying what other things are similar in smell, I can't really describe the smell0
c) Difference: The imagined approach was weak in the sense that it bore none of the reality of the actual smell. The reality was richer and much more "enticing" than imagining what a burrito smells like. This is the same result as the visual and auditory experiments so far.

Touch
a) Imagined (of the outside of it...I don't want to touch the gooey insides!): Soft but with some potential crustiness from baking, weak (would give way to a pushed finger)
b) Actual: Warm, firm
c) Difference: Again, the imagined approach didn't even think to consider the temperature. Actual experience brings in aspects that the mind often just forgets to consider or include in its daydreams

Taste
a) Imagined: Warm or hot, salty, cheesy
b) Actual: Crusty (tortilla) and a mix of tastes that can't really be described, other than saying the ingredients - which doesn't give a description for the actual experience
c) Difference: Actual experience was much richer and varied than the imagined one

Overall, with all of the senses, one thing that I noticed (beyond that the actual was much more interesting and complex than the imagined) is that the thought version is very "two-dimensional" or "flat" in the sense that thoughts are sequential and are on a single aspect of something at a time. I can't be thinking "it will smell like meat" at the same exact moment as "it will be hot." Those are two separate thoughts that may follow one another but cannot perfectly overlap. The actual experience of eating, however, gives you everything simultaneously.
Hi Bayou my name is Stafford & I'm here to help guide you for Sioned. He had too take a break & I'm hoping that's ok for you & we're not going too loose the ground you have already covered. I love how you're really getting the feel of this !!! And Yes the actual is so much interesting & complex then anything imagined !!! That's exactly how too see what's actually happening !!! Great job & would love too continue this journey with you if you're ok with me guiding you ?!? I hope your day is good & look forward to guiding you ImageImageImage

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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Bayou1
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Bayou1 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:55 pm

Hi Stafford,

Thank you for the offer to be my guide. I'd be very happy to continue with you - thanks again in advance.

Bayou


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