get it but don't got it

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caveman
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get it but don't got it

Postby caveman » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:02 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
For me, the self is my ego-based illusion which is afraid to allow the SELF to be realized.

What are you looking for at LU?
I need to allow myself to fully surrender to this excruciating process(?) of finally cracking open once and for all. I feel weary and broken. I grew up in up in an abusive and alcoholic Irish Catholic family system. It is very likely I am alive today because of my ego strengths but it well beyond the time when this illusion has been of any genuine value for me. My entire life I have felt a profound sense of unworthiness and unlovability. My self will not allow the SELF's unconditional love and unity to be experienced. Until that happens, I sense I will not experience the Freedom that already is. Meditation is difficult. I "know" I can't earn freedom from the self. The irony and paradox are that I keep trying to earn that which I feel unworthy of receiving. A Catch-22, really. I want to pass through my fears and just be.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I honestly don't know how to answer this question. I am trying my best to rid myself of expectations. But, I have been going through this process alone for most of my life. I have become mistrusting of dogmas, truths, and techniques. Paraphrasing the Buddha's purported dying words: Decay is imminent, work out your salvation for yourselves. Nobody has my answers. I guess I am just looking for someone to hold up the mirror so that I can finally realize that there is no mirror.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I went through 17 years of Roman Catholic education/indoctrination. Eight of those years were at the hands of the Jesuits. Then, I spent almost five years in the Jesuit Order until I finally realized it was just one more human institution trying to make me over in its own image and likeness. I even obtained my undergraduate degree in Roman Catholic theology. There is a rich tradition of spirituality and mysticism in the Church, which I have dabbled in. I have done a great deal of reading and study of the eastern spiritual traditions. I spent one summer at the Naropa Institute (now, Naropa University) in Boulder, CO. I have been through a couple 10 day Vipassana retreats. When I was around twenty years of age, I had a breakdown/through but had no one to guide me through the process. Later, in my mid-twenties, I had another heightened experience which was an epiphany of sorts. Finally, about four years ago and after many years of having just given up on trying, I had another breakthrough related to my terrible abuse of alcohol which I was using to obliterate myself. Strangely, it was the spirituality of AA and the 12 Steps that helped me back on my spiritual path four years ago. I am now back to spiritual reading and meditation.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

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Multipass
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Re: get it but don't got it

Postby Multipass » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:25 pm

Hello Caveman,

I am Multipass and I would gladly like to guide you.
You are not new to this, but at this point, it would be most benefitting to forget everything you have learned so far.
Start from a clean table. From there we can see where this conversation takes us. As long as we have this going on, please leave all other practisies and readings aside.
Also don’t mind my spelling mistakes, since my original language is not english :)
Let me know if you are ready.
With warm hugs
Multipass

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caveman
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Re: get it but don't got it

Postby caveman » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:27 pm

Hello, Multipass, I accept your generous offer and welcome your guidance. I see the benefit of forgetting all I have learned and agree to wipe the slate clean of such judgments. As for any language differences, you are an excellent communicator. I am presently teaching fulltime in Mexico and understand that communication happens on many levels, not just the written word. I am open to your guidance. caveman

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Re: get it but don't got it

Postby Multipass » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:53 am

Hi there and let´s begin then :)

What we do here, is to go back to the simplicity of observing. It is so simple, that many times it takes a while to get it.

The main purpose is to see the illusory nature of "I, me, self", by observing and searching through our 5 senses.
Not by thingkin but cutting off the consepts of thoughts.

Following is the fundament on what the looking should be based on. So please turn back to these if you get lost.

Seeing / visual sight -> colours can be observed
Hearing -> sounds can be observed
Smelling -> odours can be observed
Taste -> tasting can be observed
Feeling/sensing -> physical sensations and feelings can be observed

In addition on these, thinking is happening.

To get started, tell me how the separate I,me,self is appearing in your life at the moment.
Describe where it seems to be and what can be done by it?
Also look what happens if you concentrade on following sentence:
"I,me don´t exist in any form or shape. There is no separate entity as I, there has never been and there will never be"

Go deeply into this and feel how this feels. Tell me from your direct experience of that moment, how it feels, what emotions or thoughts arises etc.

When you answer, please use the quote function by first pressing the reply to post button and then go back to my post, paint the question or the part you are answering to and scroll up in my post and click the quote button on top right corner of my post. It will pick the painted area automaticly to your post and then you can write your reply below the quoted section. Write your answer after the -[/quote]- code.

It would be good to write daily, if that is possible. This keeps the momentum on.
Have a nice day at your time zone :)
With warm hugs
Multipass

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caveman
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Re: get it but don't got it

Postby caveman » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:10 pm

To get started, tell me how the separate I,me,self is appearing in your life at the moment.
Describe where it seems to be and what can be done by it?
The self is generally a critical presence. It is always judging and comparing. It likes to suffer and dwell on its unworthiness. It likes to distract when it feels threatened. When the "space" of non-thinking occurs, it tries to turn back on itself through analytical thinking and "evaluate" what is being experienced in the moment. Sometimes it strikes me that the self is terrified of the thought that becoming awakened will be unbearably boring, and it prefers suffering to boredom.
Also look what happens if you concentrade on following sentence:
"I,me don´t exist in any form or shape. There is no separate entity as I, there has never been and there will never be"
This sentence does not cause any distress. On the contrary, it exudes a deep calm from within. There is no sense of fear or anxiety. This sensation has been occurring for quite some time. It was realized intuitively based upon experience. It occurred after a long period of struggle and suffering ending in a sensation of release. Later, in reading spiritual works by those who live constantly in nothingness, what was experienced by "me" was thus validated. It was an "Aha! Others have this sensation/experience, too!" In the same fashion, my brief experiences of the Unity of all, the One, the thread of the Divine which weaves all together, was confirmed in reading and listening to various masters who live constantly in the nothingness. That was experienced as a Grace, having come to that realization. "I" had nothing to do with it.

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Multipass
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Re: get it but don't got it

Postby Multipass » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:38 pm

Great,
The self is generally a critical presence. It is always judging and comparing. It likes to suffer and dwell on its unworthiness. It likes to distract when it feels threatened. When the "space" of non-thinking occurs, it tries to turn back on itself through analytical thinking and "evaluate" what is being experienced in the moment. Sometimes it strikes me that the self is terrified of the thought that becoming awakened will be unbearably boring, and it prefers suffering to boredom.

Let´s look into this. You tell about the self, like it would be some separate entity somewhere.
Now you need to find it.

Use the 5 senses now and really investigate through them, what sense is doing the description you wrote.

"the self is generally a critical persence". What is presence and can it be critical?
You need to find the difference between looking and thinking.
To do so, you need to look what can be found at this very moment through the senses and what is the thinking telling about it.

Read your whole answer and now look where this weird entity called "it" (I, me, self, it) can be found.
Your description sounds, like the "me" had externalized the "self" into "it" and claims it to exist somewhere having a hold of ower another you.
You need to look everywhere in your direct experience (DE) if you can locate it somewhere.

Concentrade very carefully and pin point the location of the entity that has this much power ower you.

Close your eyes and look. Where is it?
Can it be located with your senses so that you can really experience it´s existance or is it only a though?
Is your answer coming from AE or is it just a story that appears to run?
From where the thoughts are coming from?
Can a thinker of the thoughts be found?

Look with time and make notices from the very moment. Tell from the DE what seems to happen.
We go further from there.

Good luck <3
With warm hugs
Multipass

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caveman
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Re: get it but don't got it

Postby caveman » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:20 pm

Let´s look into this. You tell about the self, like it would be some separate entity somewhere.
Now you need to find it.

Use the 5 senses now and really investigate through them, what sense is doing the description you wrote.

"the self is generally a critical persence". What is presence and can it be critical?
You need to find the difference between looking and thinking.
To do so, you need to look what can be found at this very moment through the senses and what is the thinking telling about it.

Read your whole answer and now look where this weird entity called "it" (I, me, self, it) can be found.
Your description sounds, like the "me" had externalized the "self" into "it" and claims it to exist somewhere having a hold of ower another you.
You need to look everywhere in your direct experience (DE) if you can locate it somewhere.

Concentrade very carefully and pin point the location of the entity that has this much power ower you.

Close your eyes and look. Where is it?
Can it be located with your senses so that you can really experience it´s existance or is it only a though?
Is your answer coming from AE or is it just a story that appears to run?
From where the thoughts are coming from?
Can a thinker of the thoughts be found?

Look with time and make notices from the very moment. Tell from the DE what seems to happen.
We go further from there.
My self is not a separate entity. I don't feel as if I am possessed by anything. My self feels real. It feels like it is me. But years of living tell me it is illusory. This has been confirmed by brief experiences of freedom usually following long periods of suffering that I have brought upon myself to sustain this illusion of this broken victim. I know my tendency is to see everything from the "detached" analytical place of the ego. I'm aware of that and how I filter things. So what am I feeling? I feel the frustration that this exchange appears to be devolving into semantics and vocabulary choices so that I can't communicate so you understand what I am experiencing. I feel the frustration of communicating in a fashion that comes across like Gollum speaking in the third person about his "Precious."

Using my vocabulary instead of yours, I feel like I have been battling my ego my entire life. I feel like I am ever at odds with myself. I feel separate from others and loathe how it feels. I have been sufficiently broken by this battle in the past that I have briefly surrendered and have experienced freedom and resulting equanimity. But it doesn't last. I can't locate my ego because it is an illusion I have created to survive in this world. I can't tell you where the thoughts come from that have sustained this illusion. And I don't care. They are an illusion as well. What I want is to express the same love and compassion for my "self" that I try to express towards others. And as I basically said above, I know I can't earn this freedom through effort and it comes only through Grace. I can't pretend to do it until I feel it is real. When I meditate, I don't go anywhere. I sit in my physical and emotional pain with a sense of being lost in the void. I feel the pain of being wracked with these egoic sensations. I know I want what can't be earned. I know I already have it; it already IS. But what difference does it make if I have not realized it, actualized it? I experience the futility of knowing my efforts will bring me nothing except perhaps the frustration of knowing I just further fortify the experience of egoic separation. There is nothing to do. And what I often feel is that nothing matters. So I sit in this state of stuckness and try not to punish myself for feeling this unbearable unworthiness. I've given up on the idea of enlightenment. I don't try to attain it. It's just one more illusion. I feel lost and alone. And I must admit I find the experience of sharing these things on an open forum while risking trust in a complete stranger very strange and uncomfortable.

This is my direct experience as best as I can articulate it, unfortunately, filtered through this ego I have battled with for far too long. I can't earn freedom. I can't force the feeling of love that I wish to experience. And I refuse to pretend anymore. Nothing matters. There is nothing I can DO. Effort is futile and ridiculous. Nothing matters and that is fine. A person I have worked with who shares about his experience with enlightenment said to imagine this love as a light kindled within. No! I don't want to imagine anything. I don't want to fake it til I make it on any level.


What else do I feel? I feel lost, broken and alone. And I know these are fucking illusions as well. So I don't know what to do. I work, I eat, I take each day as it comes. And I feel the futility of my effort and stuck in my frustration. So I try to accept that this is where I am. I watch these things percolate to the top and try to let go of them as quickly as I experience them happening. Some days I am better at this than others. I don't know how to surrender to what IS. And I am doing my damnedest to be gentle with myself in the meanwhile. I feel depressed and I try not to hate myself for it. I don't know what else to say. Should I tell you that I also feel frustrated with you? Because that illusion feels real as well. I know I don't want to go further through my historical approach of making myself suffer until I can momentarily arise like the Phoenix from my own ashes. Been there, done that. I know that it is Love that will free me but I don't know how to allow it. I want to be gentle with myself but feel I don't deserve it.

So, ultimately, what do I feel and what am I experiencing? I feel this yawning, aching emptiness within. It cannot be filled by any of the things I, me, it, the ego, have thrown into it for six decades. It is what I have referred to in the past as that God-shaped hole in my soul. I want to make the final plunge. It is up to Love to finally push me in. And I don't know how to stop resisting and finally surrender once and for all.

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Multipass
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Re: get it but don't got it

Postby Multipass » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:29 pm

Hello there,

I hear you and know the Place you are in. Don´t give up yet.
Try to see me as an invisible hand pointing at something to look at. Not a person.
You are here to look, prove and see for yourself, how th separate self is an illusion.
Knowing it doesn´t help. Memorizing experiencies from past doesn´t help.
It only requires observing honestly the moment here and now, what can be found and what not.
It requires to leave all expectations of how everything will open and be solved away.
What is needed is only doing the exercises given and look for the answers from your DE.

I am willing to help with all I can, to make you see, but you need to let go of the thought that anything is personal.
I am not doing anything to annoy you with questions or pointers. If you react, please look into those feelings and see why it happens. This is only for you and often it is not easy in the beginning.

I give you an exercise to do, so you can get the picture what observing the DE is.

Please do everything as asked, even it feels silly. All is very simple in the end.

We start with the visual sight. Look arround where you are atm. Just use your eyes and observe what really can be seen for sure before picking details and giving names to different items.
See the sight as one picture. Look at it as you did not know what everythin is. Like a baby looking this world for the first time.

The fact we can prove through sense is that colours appear. Pay attention how thinking starts to describe what everything is and what they mean. Stay behind as an observer.
Everything is different shades of colours. There is not many pictures, but only one, right?
Even the parts you can see of your body is part of that one colorful Picture.
Focus seeing this. No names or stories yet.

Now tell me from that DE how the view becomes known.
Does it need an I to make seeing happening or does the sight appear on it´s own?

Now pay attention to the thoughts. How they start to label everything seen. Observe how you got the names in the first place. Without any language, would the view still be there?

Do only this, nothing else, but get still and investigate it like a scientist, that don´t know anything yet.

Let me know what you notice.

Be gentle for yourself.
With warm hugs
Multipass

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Re: get it but don't got it

Postby caveman » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:32 pm

Thank you, Multipass, your gentle patience is truly appreciated. And we both know my frustration has nothing to do with you. I need to risk total honesty with you about what is percolating up from within me. I don't want to hide anything anymore. I will spend some time through today and tomorrow gently working through your exercise. Thanks again, Kevin

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Re: get it but don't got it

Postby caveman » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:25 pm

We start with the visual sight. Look arround where you are atm. Just use your eyes and observe what really can be seen for sure before picking details and giving names to different items.
See the sight as one picture. Look at it as you did not know what everythin is. Like a baby looking this world for the first time.

The fact we can prove through sense is that colours appear. Pay attention how thinking starts to describe what everything is and what they mean. Stay behind as an observer.
Everything is different shades of colours. There is not many pictures, but only one, right?
Even the parts you can see of your body is part of that one colorful Picture.
Focus seeing this. No names or stories yet.

Now tell me from that DE how the view becomes known.
Does it need an I to make seeing happening or does the sight appear on it´s own?

Now pay attention to the thoughts. How they start to label everything seen. Observe how you got the names in the first place. Without any language, would the view still be there?

Do only this, nothing else, but get still and investigate it like a scientist, that don´t know anything yet.

Let me know what you notice.
'Now tell me from that DE how the view becomes known. Does it need an I to make seeing happening or does the sight appear on its own?' Nothing is needed. Sight appears on its own. I was surprised by this experience! Everything was vivid. I noticed more detail, experienced less tunnel vision. I was able to shift into this state throughout yesterday. I was able to simply observe. Of course, I couldn't maintain it constantly. Thoughts would return. But, I was able to shift back if I refocused my attention. Or, the thoughts were relegated to the background so that they were not a "bother."

'Now pay attention to the thoughts. How they start to label everything seen. Observe how you got the names in the first place. Without any language, would the view still be there?' Observance leads to awareness, and awareness to a deeper sense of presence in the moment! What struck me when the thoughts returned? I judge everything. My thoughts are usually judgments. They reinforce my idea of a separate self. My judgments detract from being able to observe, from being in a state of awareness. I don't recall ever having this experience and resulting insight before. My thoughts/judgments return me to a sense of egoic separation. I cannot accept what I judge and this reinforces my sense of separateness. My judgments keep me from acceptance and surrender. The idea/feeling that I expressed two days ago, that nothing matters, also unexpectedly shifted to a new awareness, THAT EVERYTHING'S OKAY AS IT IS!

The experience of this exercise also bled over to other aspects of sensation, such as what I hear, taste, and feel. I didn't do anything. These experiences occurred on their own. As a result of these DEs, my meditation time was also less of a battle. It was easier throughout the day to not succumb to anxiety and worry. I spent less time being pulled into my past or future. I rushed my activities less. I was somehow anchored better in the here and now. What an unexpected surprise!

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Re: get it but don't got it

Postby Multipass » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:10 pm

Great start!

We go on with thoughts.
What struck me when the thoughts returned? I judge everything. My thoughts are usually judgments. They reinforce my idea of a separate self. My judgments detract from being able to observe, from being in a state of awareness.
Thoughts will be happening. The goal is not to get writh of them, but see them as they are -> only learned words.
Next I want you to pay attention to thoughts. Don´t define the quality of them, but observe how they arises and leaves.

Is there a place/storage of thoughts, which are clamed to be "mine"? Like is there surtain thoughts that has owner?
Do you need to think the thoughts, or do they just appear on their own?
Do you have any control ower thoughts that arises?
Can you say what your next thought will be?

Look at the thoughts and how you got them in the first place as follows:
When you were born, you did not have any language and words. You did not know what everything was.
Then you started to learn. Every word you know, is learned from someone else. The same way, all the thinking patterns that appears, you have learned. To be able to tell the difference of words and what is really there, you need to look at every thought that arises and look, if it has a target in your reality.
For example: If you look outside and see a trea, you have a place for that label to stick on. Every item you can see or observe with senses, right on your DE, has some form, where to point to.
Where do you put the lable called "I" or your name?

If a sentece appear, that tells for example "I don´t like it", it is only opinion.
In this case, look where the "I" is, that says it. Search for real, so you don´t fall into stoories so easily.
Thinking and speaking (usage of words), is great for communication purposes, but thoughts are not truth.
You can observe something through you senses and then thoughts step in, to describe what was sensed.
Pay attention to this. It is important in this matter.
All that thoughts can do, is describe about what has been observed in AE. Everything about the past or future are only stories. Word after word after word, and the story tells, it is "my" past or future.

Let´s look more into thoughts and what they can do. They are all learned words, so is some word more valuable than another?

Can a thought on it´s own do something?
When you notice judgemental thoughts, what happens to your feeling?
When the pattern starts and you feel bad, pay attention to the feelin and observe it without believing the thoughts telling what it means.
When the feeling is there, all you can say for sure is that feeling is Felt. What the thinking tells, is learned at some point.
Try to let the feeling be, without trying to get wrid of it. Just observe.
Can the feeling do something without the story about it?

Do this observation with time and cut the thoughts away from what is Felt. Look both separately and tell me what happens.

Good luck and interesting investigations <3
With warm hugs
Multipass

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Re: get it but don't got it

Postby caveman » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:57 pm

Is there a place/storage of thoughts, which are clamed to be "mine"? Like is there surtain thoughts that has owner?
Do you need to think the thoughts, or do they just appear on their own?
Do you have any control ower thoughts that arises?
Can you say what your next thought will be?
This has been a difficult exercise for me. But I'm guessing you already anticipated that! Generally, I try to just let thoughts go when they arise. But observing them these days, I find difficult, because they keep trying to pull me in. I don't know where my thoughts come from. They just keep percolating up. During the day when I am teaching, my thoughts are actually like tools. I use them to convey ideas and concepts about the subject matter I am teaching. They are not personal. They have nothing to do with me. It is different when I am home alone. The thoughts are usually about past or future events. I don't know if they come from the ego but they tend to separate me from others. They reinforce my separate identity. Often, they trigger strong feelings. These feelings make me feel even more separate. It seems to create this cycle of thought-feeling that is self-reinforcing. I begin to feed on myself. It is not pleasant and it is difficult to extricate myself from this cycle once it occurs.
Where do you put the lable called "I" or your name?

Nowhere. This is a curious question. It is like wrestling with a koan. After wrestling and wrestling with this question, there is no answer for me. It is better to just give up and let go of it. It becomes nonsensical the more I wrestle with it. It points to the absurdity of what I do with my thoughts.
Let´s look more into thoughts and what they can do. They are all learned words, so is some word more valuable than another?

Can a thought on it´s own do something?
When you notice judgemental thoughts, what happens to your feeling?
When the pattern starts and you feel bad, pay attention to the feelin and observe it without believing the thoughts telling what it means.
When the feeling is there, all you can say for sure is that feeling is Felt. What the thinking tells, is learned at some point.
Try to let the feeling be, without trying to get wrid of it. Just observe.
Can the feeling do something without the story about it?

Do this observation with time and cut the thoughts away from what is Felt. Look both separately and tell me what happens.
Lately, I have been feeling somewhat depressed, much of this week, in fact. I don't have any bad feelings when I am working. But when I go home, I have been feeling this almost overwhelming feeling of sadness and emptiness. I am feeling a terrible loneliness when left to myself. It is like a deep aching emptiness. I try to be present to these feelings without analyzing them. It is almost like a deep sorrow that I can't shake. Thoughts keep trying to come in when I just try and sit with this feeling. I try and assign blame and responsibility for these feelings. Usually, I assign these feelings to a sense of deep unworthiness. I am beginning to recognize the meaningless of assigning meaning to these feelings. I am just simply assigning value to my separate sense of being either a victim or a villain. It makes the feelings worse. It is a bad habit I have been developing for as long as I can remember. I want someone or something to just take them away. I want to run from them. It is an uncomfortable sensation just being with these feeling and I just want to run from them.
Can the feeling do something without the story about it?
No. But I'm not sure I understand this or it's significance. I'm not sure I sense any real difference between my feelings and thoughts. I seem to attach to both feelings and thoughts, thereby reinforcing my sense of separateness.

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Re: get it but don't got it

Postby Multipass » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:45 am

Hello there and good to hear from you.
Nowhere. This is a curious question. It is like wrestling with a koan. After wrestling and wrestling with this question, there is no answer for me. It is better to just give up and let go of it. It becomes nonsensical the more I wrestle with it. It points to the absurdity of what I do with my thoughts.
Great. This is a good sign. Don´t do it only with your intellectual thinking, but search and observe with all your senses in AE. This is the very thing, you need to see clearly to be able to prove the absense of that target.
Lately, I have been feeling somewhat depressed, much of this week, in fact. I don't have any bad feelings when I am working. But when I go home, I have been feeling this almost overwhelming feeling of sadness and emptiness. I am feeling a terrible loneliness when left to myself. It is like a deep aching emptiness. I try to be present to these feelings without analyzing them. It is almost like a deep sorrow that I can't shake. Thoughts keep trying to come in when I just try and sit with this feeling. I try and assign blame and responsibility for these feelings. Usually, I assign these feelings to a sense of deep unworthiness. I am beginning to recognize the meaningless of assigning meaning to these feelings. I am just simply assigning value to my separate sense of being either a victim or a villain. It makes the feelings worse. It is a bad habit I have been developing for as long as I can remember. I want someone or something to just take them away. I want to run from them. It is an uncomfortable sensation just being with these feeling and I just want to run from them.
Pay attention to these descriptions.

A feeling arises -> a thought tells it to be depression, sadness, emptiness etc. -> with these labels comes a value (good or bad) and a lots of other meanings.
Now observe that they are all only thoughts. As you told before, you use words as tools at your work and they are not personal.
Observe thoughts and look, what thoughts results in feeling they are personal.
What is it, that feels itself personal?

Don´t try to solve these questions with understanding or intellectual thinking. It won´t work.
Go deeper into being. Into sensing and looking with the whole being through all senses.

Do the thought have ability to analyze itself? When words/thoughts run through conciousness, what and where is that, which gives them power?
What makes somethig Felt personal and isn´t "personal" also only another Word?
Where is the thing, that believes some thoughts to be personal and some not?
Is there somewhere a believer of the thoughts?

It is a bad habit I have been developing for as long as I can remember. I want someone or something to just take them away. I want to run from them. It is an uncomfortable sensation just being with these feeling and I just want to run from them.
As you can see here, there seems to be someone wanting to run from them.
What is it, that wans to run from them?
What tells that?
Can the feeling do something without the story about it?

No. But I'm not sure I understand this or it's significance. I'm not sure I sense any real difference between my feelings and thoughts. I seem to attach to both feelings and thoughts, thereby reinforcing my sense of separateness.
It is significant.
Can a thought feel someting?
Can a feeling think something?
When the feeling arises, investigate how do you know, what that feeling means.
In AE, do you REALLY know the meaning, or are the thoughts rushing in and assuming the description based of learning from past?

You mentioned about thinking about events in past or in future.
Is there a past or future in AE? They are only consepts of words and all conseps are only learned, but not found in reality.
The content of memorizing is not in AE, so those are only thoughts describing something that is not right here right now.
Look and see the difference. Also thoughts about future are only imagined assumptions of something that is not here in AE.
Try to look and search only from now situation for the answers, so that the thoughts don´t lead you in other thoughts.
If a thought don´t have an targer found through the 5 senses, it is only imagination and not reality.
Become aware and clear of this difference.


Here is another practice to help observe what really is happening.
Next time you start walking somewhere. Pay attention and focus in observing what is happening.
Is there a you somewhere, that needs to take care of the walking or is it just happening?
Do you need to tell the left and the right foot to take each step, or is that taken care without your command?

Look how it goes in AE reality. Is there someone walking, or does it just happen?

What is the whitness of this action taking place?
Is this whitness separate from the action (walking) itself?

Try to answer from DE and not include much opinions, assumptions, expectations or other descriptions which are not present now. This helps you to really see and separate beliefs from reality.

If the mind gets confused, step out from there and only observe.

Keep up the good work <3
With warm hugs
Multipass

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caveman
Posts: 59
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Re: get it but don't got it

Postby caveman » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:51 pm

Good morning, Multipass. I wish to ask for a clarification:
Great. This is a good sign. Don´t do it only with your intellectual thinking, but search and observe with all your senses in AE. This is the very thing, you need to see clearly to be able to prove the absense of that target.
You explained DE as Direct Experience. Is AE Actual Experience? Are DE and AE the same? I can't find what is meant by AE in your posts. But, there are other things you expressed that struck a chord. When I read some of the things you expressed I experienced a dizzying disorientation:
It is significant.
Can a thought feel someting?
Can a feeling think something?
When the feeling arises, investigate how do you know, what that feeling means.
In AE, do you REALLY know the meaning, or are the thoughts rushing in and assuming the description based of learning from past?

You mentioned about thinking about events in past or in future.
Is there a past or future in AE? They are only consepts of words and all conseps are only learned, but not found in reality.
The content of memorizing is not in AE, so those are only thoughts describing something that is not right here right now.
Look and see the difference. Also thoughts about future are only imagined assumptions of something that is not here in AE.
Try to look and search only from now situation for the answers, so that the thoughts don´t lead you in other thoughts.
If a thought don´t have an targer found through the 5 senses, it is only imagination and not reality.
Become aware and clear of this difference.
Occasionally, in meditation, there is this experience of being in a void. It is as if "nothing" is being experienced. Then there is this sensation or awareness of a question, am "I" asleep? Am "I" merely experiencing spiritual torpor? Then "I" suddenly am "back." I am analyzing what was once a DE!
It is strange, but I have this awareness/understanding that a feeling is a DE once removed, and a thought is not only a feeling once removed but, also, a thought is a DE twice removed! It is as if my thoughts are assigning value to my feelings, while my feelings are assigning value to the DE!
Yesterday, after responding to your post, I committed to merely observing throughout the day without judging. And, I had a DE which relates to the meditation experiences I just mentioned above but was experienced as I was going about my day. It relates to the following directions you gave me:
Here is another practice to help observe what really is happening.
Next time you start walking somewhere. Pay attention and focus in observing what is happening.
Is there a you somewhere, that needs to take care of the walking or is it just happening?
Do you need to tell the left and the right foot to take each step, or is that taken care without your command?

Look how it goes in AE reality. Is there someone walking, or does it just happen?

What is the whitness of this action taking place?
Is this whitness separate from the action (walking) itself?

Try to answer from DE and not include much opinions, assumptions, expectations or other descriptions which are not present now. This helps you to really see and separate beliefs from reality.

If the mind gets confused, step out from there and only observe.
Yesterday, while walking through the merchants' stalls in the busy mercado, I experienced frustration and irritation at how slowly the crowds were moving. Then I observed, "This is from the ego." I observed and didn't judge this awareness. Then there was this realization, "It doesn't matter whether it is from the ego or not." It was as if I went from judging this DE to observing this experience of the ego. Almost instantaneously, there was no longer any observer, there was just this DE of "walking in the mercado." "I" was not experiencing anything. There was just this experience "happening" without any value, no good or bad, being assigned to it. Again, the experiencing was dizzying. It was like observing the "flickering" of a nickelodeon or a silent movie. I kept shifting back and forth. There was just "walking in the mercado" but no "I" observing it. The sensation, the experience, was also like "flickering" back and forth between two different "realities" but then "I" became aware, and the observer returned, and the DE was gone. "I" was again assigning value (making judgments) to the DE. Whatever is happening, I can't control it. Once the observer returns the ego is fast on its heels. The DE evaporates, the sensations dissolve into feelings which are then experienced as the abstract judgments which are my thoughts. This all feels very strange and disorienting.

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Multipass
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Re: get it but don't got it

Postby Multipass » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:33 pm

Hello there,
You explained DE as Direct Experience. Is AE Actual Experience? Are DE and AE the same?
I am sorry about this. My bad. Yes, both refer to same thing.
Occasionally, in meditation, there is this experience of being in a void. It is as if "nothing" is being experienced.
Now we need to look at the difference between memorizing and speaking directly from DE.
All thoughts are thoughts. If the thoughts tells about something, that is not present and observed in the very moment, the content of the thoughts does not exist in any other form, but as a thought. Memory is only thoughts.
Here we try to focus only on something that can be observed right now and not from the memory. So try to answer only for the question from the very result of observation.
Then there is this sensation or awareness of a question, am "I" asleep? Am "I" merely experiencing spiritual torpor? Then "I" suddenly am "back." I am analyzing what was once a DE!
Now really LOOK, what this "I" is. It pops up as an owner or doer of life in your writings, so you need to find, what it is for real.

Is it a sound?
Is it a taste?
Is it a sensation?
Is it a form/colours?
Is it a smell?
Is it a thought combination, idea, consept?
Describe how the "I" exists?

Answer all questions from the direct observation result. Really look.
It is strange, but I have this awareness/understanding that a feeling is a DE once removed, and a thought is not only a feeling once removed but, also, a thought is a DE twice removed! It is as if my thoughts are assigning value to my feelings, while my feelings are assigning value to the DE!
I don´t exactly get what you say here, but you say that "a thought is not only a feeling".

You need to see this clearly. A thought is a thought. Nothing else.
Can a thought feel?
Can a thought give value to anything?

There is no value in any thought unless we imagine something on it.
Can you see this?

A feeling is just a feeling in it´s raw form, no matter what kind of a feeling it is.
Feeling can´t think and describe itself, or can it?
So without the thoughts, what can a feeling do?
Is there somewhere a separate feeler of the feeling?


You had the experience of walking without anyone doing the walking and that was a result of really looking.
Using words like ego or explaining the understanding of things is not helpful here, since there is no ego in reality.
Ego is also a word, that don´t have a place in DE to stick it on.

For example.
Word University is only a consept. It don´t exist as something to point to. It is consept (shotrcut of words) that referes to a building, teachres, studying, students... and everything else belonging to this idea.
It is useful in language, but it is not something in AE.

Do this practise:

Take an apple, or cup on a table in front of you.
Look at it and tell what you can say about it through DE observing.

Now close your eyes and think about what you saw. Think about the target.
All you think with eyes closed is based on memory. Those things doesn´t exist in your DE reality, only in your thoughts.

Investigate this difference carefully. Make sure you get it. If the senses can´t sense something right now, it doesn´t exist in your present reality!!!

Answer every question separately and describe from within the experience, not only thinking about it from the understanding.

Waiting to hear from you again <3
With warm hugs
Multipass


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